Shipping guns to Cal-E-forn-I-A

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I routinely read the classifieds and commonly see "Will not ship to California" or something similar. My thoughts are not meant as a poke at anyone and is simply intended to be a thought provoker. I should make it clear that it is everyone's "right" to do, or not do, whatever they wish regarding shipping THEIR guns within the confines of the law.

 

As Shelby Stanga would say, "Here we go!"

 

To me, paranoia of shipping a cowboy gun to California is similar to being afraid of the dark. As long as you listen to those who swear the boogey man lives in the dark, you'll never go there. You'll never take the opportunity to discover there's no boogey man, you're simply alone…in the dark.

 

With that said, even when a cowboy knows that the boogey man does not live in the dark and that guns can be shipped to California without a ton of effort, it is not unusual to encounter FFL's who are absolutely convinced that the boogey man indeed DOES live in the dark…and is equally convinced it's probably dark in California...all the time. When that occurs, there is unlikely any amount of fancy talking, stating of laws and explaining the steps required that is likely to convince those FFL's that the boogey man is dead. Don't EVEN think of trying to convince them that the boogey man never existed. To them, the boogey man is real. In fact, they know somebody who has seen him.

 

FWIW, my approach would simply be: Pard, if you live in California and you want to buy my gun, I'll be happy to attempt to find a local FFL who has the courage to ship to you. If I'm paying the FFL fee and shipping, I'll cover up to $XX.00. If you're paying the FFL and shipping, here we go. If my FFL wants a limb to handle the transaction, you can call off the deal. If I have to travel to Egypt to find a reasonable FFL, I can call off the deal.

 

I have personally encountered paranoid FFL's. Fortunately for me, I have found a reasonable FFL who (after getting what he needs from the receiving FFL) I can hand a gun, fill out some paperwork, he gets a copy of my drivers license, looks at me and says, "That'll be $25." Sometimes he says, "That'll be $20." The price doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether it's a long gun or a revolver (or two revolvers). I think I've figured out his pricing method. It's $20 in the afternoon. If it's before noon, he needs lunch money, so it's an extra $5. He's obviously a reasonable man.

 

I understand that not everyone lives in an area where FFL's are abundant and I'd venture to guess that the scarcer they are, the more independent they are. I guess all I'm trying to convey is: Imagine that you lived in a state where guns laws were not as friendly. How would you feel if others acted as if you were one of the idiots who made the laws and refused to sell to you? Regardless of where you live, just imagine that everyone treated you as if you were an ignorant politician making the laws. Every state has stupid laws, but some states are just less stupid when it comes to gun laws.

 

To me it seems that when we refuse to ship a gun to California, beyond punishing our cowboy pards who live there, we are sending a message to the stupid-gun-law-makers that they're winning. Didn't SASS begin in the dark...I mean California?

[Ivory Jack, #8534 LTG]

Howdy Buck,

 

Dinner and drinks are on me the next time you visit Deepest, Darkest SoCal!

[Manatee]

Initially, there was a concern that California requirements might drive some criminal liability associated with a shipment....don't ask me to remember how it got to that point, but it was a factor.

 

What I've found is that it's not necessarily a time consuming process, depending on who you're dealing with on the California end.

 

And, you can bet a fee is going to be charged for the service. It's amazing that dealers can keep the lights on nowadays....a little transfer fee certainly helps with that.

[Grizzly Dave]

Buck, my FFL is an old retired cop who charges the lowest fees I've ever found and is a real nice guy to boot. He doesn't do a ton of shipping and has chosen not to go thru what is needed to ship to CA. I can respect that. But, if I ever sell a gun to someone in CA I'm sure I can find a FFL willing to ship there, but would want the buyer to help cover the fees if they were out of line. I can understand why some just choose not to sell to CA though, why go thru extra hassle if you don't have to.

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

I'm not an FFL, nor am I a lawyer.

 

That out of the way, it is my understanding that the California law only applies in FFL to FFL transfers.

 

The law does not require a private individual to do anything extra to send a gun to an FFL in California.

 

In other words, since it is legal for a private individual to send a gun direct to an FFL (aside from any State or local laws in your jurisdiction) then a private individual can still send a gun direct to a receiving FFL dealer in California with no extra steps or red tape.

 

Here is the language from the California Attorney General's FAQ's on the subject: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2

 

I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?

No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.

 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong!

[Subdeacon Joe]

Thanks, Buck. A well worded and well thought out post. And a reasonable attitude.

 

You hit the nail on the head with this:

 

it is not unusual to encounter FFL's who are absolutely convinced that the boogey man indeed DOES live in the dark…and is equally convinced it's probably dark in California...all the time. When that occurs, there is unlikely any amount of fancy talking, stating of laws and explaining the steps required that is likely to convince those FFL's that the boogey man is dead. Don't EVEN think of trying to convince them that the boogey man never existed. To them, the boogey man is real. In fact, they know somebody who has seen him.

 

and that attitude is one of the reasons that so many of us here in the Golden State get our dander up when people bad mouth CA, it just confirms the myth that the boogey man is under every bed, in every closet, and lurking in every gun safe to snatch our guns away. Yes, our gun laws suck big brown horse apples for the most part, but it isn't a total ban on everything - far from it, and we are trying to work on it.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

Buck, I'm backing my pard, Ivory Jack's play. Dinner and drinks on both of us if you ever stray out to the wilds of CA.

 

IROT

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

I'm not an FFL, nor am I a lawyer.

 

.................

Here is the language from the California Attorney General's FAQ's on the subject: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php#2

 

I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?

No. The requirement to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number only applies to holders of valid FFLs.

 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

That is how it was explained to me. So, if you aren't an FFL send the gun yourself.

 

I am an FFL. I do send guns to CAL. and I do the CAL DOJ requirements. But, I also charge a $5 precessing fee for my time.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I also charge a $5 precessing fee for my time.

 

Does the $5 apply after lunch?

 

Professor, that information was enlightening. I hope people read it.

[Manatee]

Bullspit may have the law keerect, BUT you need to find the Calif FFL who will accept a gun from a private party.

 

Most of the bizness I get from Calif is from dealers who won't accept from a priv party...so make sure to confirm this with them to avoid any hard feelings.

[Frio Kid, SASS #31915]

Bullspit may have the law keerect, BUT you need to find the Calif FFL who will accept a gun from a private party.

 

Most of the bizness I get from Calif is from dealers who won't accept from a priv party...so make sure to confirm this with them to avoid any hard feelings.

 

Are the CA FFLs afraid of the boogey man too?????

[That Masked Man]

Are the CA FFLs afraid of the boogey man too?????

 

Seems to me almost ALL FFLs are afraid of the boogey man - by which I mean the ATF.

 

I have spoken to a number of FFLs in my area and NONE of them will accept a gun shipped by a private owner. More irrational fears? Perhaps, but as Walter Cronkite would say, "that's the way it is".

 

Good thread, hopefully folks will take the excellent advice offered here to heart.

[Utah Bob #35998]

The ranters hate it when someone injects reason and rational thought into a brouhaha?

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Every time I see the "We Do Not Ship To California" tag, it mostly makes me sad. The people who hate guns, and hate us, and all that we stand for, win. When people ship from out of state to California, the monkey boys LOSE. It's as simple as that. Besides; I'll gladly pick up the fee for the extra trouble.

 

I recognize that the paper requirement and associated hassle for dealers (Not private citizens, as the good professor has pointed out) are a pain in the rear, but I come from a long line of folks who just dig in their heels when confronted with obstinate, non-sensical adversaries.

 

And IJ and IROT- invite me to that dinner; I'll help pick up the tab. Or at least help drink up the good scotch.... ;-)

 

Cheers,

FJT

[Subdeacon Joe]

Are the CA FFLs afraid of the boogey man too?????

 

 

Seems to me almost ALL FFLs are afraid of the boogey man - by which I mean the ATF.

 

I have spoken to a number of FFLs in my area and NONE of them will accept a gun shipped by a private owner. More irrational fears? Perhaps, but as Walter Cronkite would say, "that's the way it is".

 

Good thread, hopefully folks will take the excellent advice offered here to heart.

 

Part of the reason that FFLs don't like to take in guns from a private party is the extra work on their part - often they have to mail, email, and/or phone the shipper for more information/paperwork. Also, a lot of the guns that people get "o such a deal" on on the internet, that dealer could have ordered for them and pretty much met the price plus shipping that the recipient ended up paying. And he has to listen to the guy whine about having to pay the FFL the 25 bucks (or whatever he charges) for the hassle of taking the gun in, storing it, and then releasing it.

 

And, as Mr. Turner mentioned, every time someone refuses to legally ship to CA, the antis win.

[Ivory Jack, #8534 LTG]

Every time I see the "We Do Not Ship To California" tag, it mostly makes me sad. The people who hate guns, and hate us, and all that we stand for, win. When people ship from out of state to California, the monkey boys LOSE. It's as simple as that. Besides; I'll gladly pick up the fee for the extra trouble.

 

I recognize that the paper requirement and associated hassle for dealers (Not private citizens, as the good professor has pointed out) are a pain in the rear, but I come from a long line of folks who just dig in their heels when confronted with obstinate, non-sensical adversaries.

 

And IJ and IROT- invite me to that dinner; I'll help pick up the tab. Or at least help drink up the good scotch.... ;-)

 

Cheers,

FJT

 

 

It's a deal pard. We'll have a good time.

[Ethan Cord]

Yes there are dealers in So Cal who will accept legal shipments from private parties. Just contact them in advance, remind them who you are, tell them what you want to buy (because sometimes you cannot buy certain guns here these days)and ask them if it is ok to to have the gun shipped to their store. IMPORTANT: have the person you are buying the gun from send a note with the firearm saying who it it from and who it for so when the gun arrives the store owner is not puzzled.

 

Expect to pay a fee for this service in addition to the registration cost. The FFL dealer is most likely struggling to keep his doors open like many other California small business owners and needs to be renumerated for his time and efforts.

 

I have had excellent service of this type from Hud at Gunslingers and Andy at Walker 47, both of whom are active SASS members and activists for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

 

I'll join my amigos from So Cal at the drinking...er.. I mean dinner party honoring this fine topic!

 

Ethan

[Harvey Mushman]

Pards,

I live in a small (`25,000 pop) town in CA and all three FFLs we have will accept legal long guns from individuals for a small fee of $25-35. I've done many transactions with them from out of state individuals without ANY probs.

 

However, as I understand their role in the California gun law labrinth, handguns cannot be shipped to them directly from an out of state individual, but must come from an FFL. In that case, the out of state FFL must register on the CA website (no fee that I know of, just a minor PITA) and they charge a small fee for that, if they are willing to do the FFL-FFL transfer. We in CA pay the accepting FFL fee (and sending FFL, as negotiated in some cases) for their time and BATF record keeping (usually the $25-35 I mentioned).

 

All in all, I have not had A SINGLE problem with many out of state transactions and have contributed the necessary minor fees (when the FFL really understands the limited effort required).

 

Thanks to Buck for constructively raising this and helping to shed light on the "bogeyman" who always diappears when the light is shown on him. Real knowledge and truth are needed regarding our "rights". Count me in for sharing in Buck's dinner and adult libation costs!!!

 

Cheers,

Harvey

[WEEDY SASS#653]

I'll join my California Pards and now dinner and drinks are only 20% each So we can now have a REAL blast.

It's good you've pointed these things out I only wish more people would read them.

I've shipped some guns in the past, One stands out. It was an H&R 22 revolver. The gentleman who won the bid lived in New York. He contacted me before the auction to make sure it would be ok for me to jump through the required hoops there. He was a retired LEO that was doing a little gun training to make a few $$. I had to let the local Police station know when, what and where I was shipping and he did the same. Local law I don't think ever even looked at the revolver but they needed to know?? Everything went OK and I kinda made a friend of a nice gentelman.

[Irish Red OToole, #48939]

However, as I understand their role in the California gun law labrinth, handguns cannot be shipped to them directly from an out of state individual, but must come from an FFL. In that case, the out of state FFL must register on the CA website (no fee that I know of, just a minor PITA) and they charge a small fee for that, if they are willing to do the FFL-FFL transfer. We in CA pay the accepting FFL fee (and sending FFL, as negotiated in some cases) for their time and BATF record keeping (usually the $25-35 I mentioned).

Not quite, Harvey. ANYONE is allow (by law) to ship a firearm to any FFL. There is no requirement for the shipment to come from another FFL. If the guys in your locale are telling you this, they are in error. This is the kind of misinformation that causes our out-of-state pards so much grief.

 

IROT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well, I must say that nearly all of the above info is correct, based on my recent experience.

 

Living here in TN, I recently shipped some PISTOLS to a pard in Cal. Neither of us have an FFL.

 

Although I could have shipped them myself to a receiving FFL and been within the law, this particular receiving FFL wanted that shipment to come from an FFL here in TN.

 

NO PROBLEM. The local FFL got on the computer and got himself an 'Approval Number' and shipped em out.

 

Yea, it took alittle extra time but we were able to help a Pard in Cal get some badly needed pistols.

 

 

FJT: hey pard, remember that Buck is from Alabama. He probably don't drink scotch but rather JD Black lable. The REAL stuff.

 

 

..........Widder

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Dear Buck,

 

 

Allie Mo

[Ivory Jack, #8534 LTG]

Well, I must say that nearly all of the above info is correct, based on my recent experience.

 

Living here in TN, I recently shipped some PISTOLS to a pard in Cal. Neither of us have an FFL.

 

Although I could have shipped them myself to a receiving FFL and been within the law, this particular receiving FFL wanted that shipment to come from an FFL here in TN.

 

NO PROBLEM. The local FFL got on the computer and got himself an 'Approval Number' and shipped em out.

 

Yea, it took alittle extra time but we were able to help a Pard in Cal get some badly needed pistols.

 

 

FJT: hey pard, remember that Buck is from Alabama. He probably don't drink scotch but rather JD Black lable. The REAL stuff.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Hey Widder,

 

Not to worry. IROT and I prefer good Irish Whiskey, and FJT ain't nearly as particular as he lets on. We'll have Buck recalibrated in no time.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Widder;

As the fine gentleman Ivory Jack points out, I ani't all that particular. I just keep drinking 'til it starts tasting goooood..... :-O

 

(Something I may have learned from the Germans.... ;-) )

 

Cheers,

(See how it starts?)

FJT

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Dang if it doesn't look like I need to make a trip out there. I like to blend it when I travel, so I make every attempt to make sure my dialect fits. So, is it pronounced Cal-E-forn-I-A or is it Cal-E-forn-E?

 

Buck D. Law

From Al-ah-bam-E

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

Dang if it doesn't look like I need to make a trip out there. I like to blend it when I travel, so I make every attempt to make sure my dialect fits. So, is it pronounced Cal-E-forn-I-A or is it Cal-E-forn-E?

 

Buck D. Law

From Al-ah-bam-E

 

Just don't pronounce it like our former Gov!

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Just don't pronounce it like our former Gov!

 

Daht Vas "Kahl-E-FOHN-Yah.."

 

;-)

 

Great thread, Buck; and if you make it out here, I guarantee you, those gentlemen's offer is good!

 

Cheers,

FJT