You make the call.......

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

One more time!

There is NO WAY that you can penalize a shooter for what YOU think he was going to do, ONLY for what he did!!!

+1

Miss only.

[Rattler]

My point is, what he DID was run out of degrees of freedom after expending the eighth round. And, after that, there was no option for what he was GOING TO DO.

 

AND, you can NOT penalize someone for what he was going to do, only for what he HAS DONE!!!!

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

No, of course not. But that is a different engagement. Not what happened here in BJT's scenario.

 

Go back in time to before the miss. Shooter has expended 8 rounds on 4 targets with no misses and no double taps. He has 2 rounds left and one target with no hits. He cannot fire one round on R1,2,3,or 4 without incurring a P for a triple tap. He cannot double tap R5 without a P. Why should he be allowed to miss, intentionally or not, to avoid the P he so plainly deserves for not following stage instructions. It's not a matter of intent. His intentions do not enter into it. No one ever intends to get a P.

 

People are being too lenient here and that is laudable. No one wants to call a P on anyone. Sometimes the benefit of the doubt does not apply. It ain't like this is an edger. The shooter ran out of ways to correctly complete the stage. If you do not give him the P which he deserves for the brain fahrt, then (as has been stated here so many times) then you penalize every other shooter who did shoot the stage correctly.

 

I'm sorry, but the shooter did not do what was required. He should not be rewarded for having the presence of mind to "miss" or the luck to actually miss. And thus the posse say good thing you missed and loopholed that one. Nope. There is no actual legal loophole: P for incorrectly shooting the scenario and a miss.

We all know he would have earned a P if he had hit any rifle target with his last round.....BUT he didn't.

 

Since P's are based off of HITTING the targets how do you support your position using the rule book?

 

Stan

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

This is not about thinking about what the shooter can do it is about the only possible outcome.

After the 8th shot he cannot complete the stage by firing and hitting any targets without

1. having more than 2 shots per target

2. double tapping target number 5.

Either one of the above is a P.

 

The shooting sequence through shot 7 is in compliance with the instructions of the stage.

But where he shoots shot 8 is in direct violation of the instructions of the stage.

 

Question is;

Is it a legitimate thing to do to intend to miss a target to comply with stage instructions?

[BJT]

You could but wouldn't you agree that if we followed the Miss Flow Chart that shooter does not EARN the penaly until he HITS the last target.

 

Depending on target placement......maybe his 8th shot was intended for r5 but hit r4 instead........

 

BJT, did the target placement allow for a CLEAN miss?

 

Stan

 

 

Target placement allowed for a clean miss. There was no overlap, just five targets spaced evenly.

 

This was a real stage shot Sunday in Sacramento.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Santa Fe River Stan,

 

I would use the following rule to award a P. From the shooters Handbook page 19.

 

 

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where the competitor engages the stage in a

manner other than the way it is supposed to be shot. Procedurals are scored as ten-second

additions to the competitor’s raw time for the stage, no more than one per stage.

 

 

The unintentional part in this example is that he ran of ways to avoid the double tap.

 

From the RO1 manual page 25

There are two candidates

 

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

[johny two horse]

The shooter planned poorly on the first eight then had a choice, amiss for five points or a P for ten. he chose well.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

It doesn't matter WHAT I or anyone else THINK the shooter is going to do. We KNOW what his intent was. His intent was to shoot fast and clean with no P.

 

Unfortunately he blew that opportunity. After round 8 impacted R4 there were only so many possible outcomes. All of which end up with a P. Even if he intentionally or accidentally missed BOTH round 9 and round 10. He has to finish the stage. That is what he did, too bad it was incorrectly.

 

Once again, INTENT had NOTHING to do with it.

 

After mulling it over in my sleep-deprived mush mind, perhaps missing both round 9 AND 10 could somehow possibly be construed as not a P. I gotta go nap on that one. My thinker is sore. But the way he did do it I gotta stick with a P and a miss.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Quote

 

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

 

So when EXACTLY did he SHOOT the targets in an order other than required by stage description?

He fired 9 shots that struck targets - none of which were a double tap.

The targets he struck were hit EXACTLY as required by stage description - the shot/ target he MISSED is immaterial because he MISSED.

 

Miss Flow Chart:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets? No - Assess misses.

Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? Yes - No further call.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Let me get this straight.

 

If he puts shot 9 and 10 on R5, we all agree it's 10 seconds.

 

So y'all are gonna give him 5 seconds LESS penalty for missing one and hitting one than for hitting 2 ???

 

Now y'all know that cain't be right.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Lone Dog and Hacker,

I would have agreed with you back before we started confusing procedures and misses in 2001. Things were pretty clear back then.

Before then, a miss was a miss and P was a P.

 

Then some folks decided to start giving out Misses with a P if you hit the wrong target. They were afeared that getting a 10 second penalty would not be enough, so they went for piling on penalties. You could have a P and get up to 50 seconds in penalties. I guess that made some folks happy... But we have never totally recovered "common sense" since that time.

 

That lasted a year, then they changed the rules to avoid doubling up on penalties. And we got the Miss/Procedure Flow Chart. It has gradually been modified and gotten better and better.

 

Now, I would trend to say a miss only based on the flow chart in this case.

 

Now maybe PaleWolf will step in and give a different direction. That happened a couple years ago when they clarified what a miss was.

 

But currently, even though common sense says a P, the flow chart doesn't support it.

 

The shooter definitely set himself up for a P, but with the miss, he did not double tap a target. And since a "Miss cannot cause a P" it appears he got off on a technicality.

 

I sure wishe those folks had never started mixing misses and procedures, but they did and we have to live with it.

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Quote

 

• Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

• Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by

the stage description.

 

So when EXACTLY did he SHOOT the targets in an order other than required by stage description?

He fired 9 shots that struck targets - none of which were a double tap.

The targets he struck were hit EXACTLY as required by stage description - the shot/ target he MISSED is immaterial because he MISSED.

 

Miss Flow Chart:

Did the shooter hit all of the correct type of targets? No - Assess misses.

Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses? Yes - No further call.

 

 

God almighty I've agreed twice in two days!!!!!

 

 

RRR

[Griff]

Santa Fe River Stan,

I would use the following rule to award a P. From the shooters Handbook page 19.

The unintentional part in this example is that he ran of ways to avoid the double tap.

From the RO1 manual page 25

There are two candidates

How many times must you hear "A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL", before you understand the concept? How many times do you have hear/read "DO NOT INTERPRET THE RULES, APPLY THEM AS WRITTEN", before that sinks in?

 

You cannot penalize a shooter for would've, could've or should've, only for what happened; the shooter shot 4 targets without double tapping and the 5th once; they didn't triple hit any, just missed one. Yes, IF he'd hit any rifle target with that 9th shot, he'd gotten a "P", but no miss.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

BJT,

 

I had this same situation a few months ago. Five rifle targets, engage each target twice, no double taps. I shot it 1,2,3,2,1,3,4,5,4,5. Someone called a "P" on me, but we got it sorted out and the "P" removed. My turn to run the timer and shooter ended up with last two shots on target 5. Lucky for her, she missed one of the shots. I'm pretty sure it was not intentional. I ruled Miss only, with a chuckle that the miss saved her from a "P".

 

I see where Lone Dog and Hacker are coming from, but I cannot agree. Until that second round HITS #5 it is a miss only. Yes, if it is a hit the call will be a P, but until that second round hits, it isn't. Sorta like the driver who is accellerating. If he continues to accellerate he will exceed the speed limit. BUT, until he actually does exceed the speed limit there is no violation of the speed limit.

 

The above situation occurred at a Canadian River Regulators monthly match, which was attended by Lone Dog. He was on another posse and probably never heard of the "incident." Ironic, isn't it?

 

Steeldust Dan

[Missouri Ruffian, SASS #70225]

Let me get this straight.

 

If he puts shot 9 and 10 on R5, we all agree it's 10 seconds.

 

So y'all are gonna give him 5 seconds LESS penalty for missing one and hitting one than for hitting 2 ???

 

Now y'all know that cain't be right.

 

The shooter did not double tap the target or hit any target more times than allowed. It does not matter what the outcome would have been if any of the targets were hit, since he missed. All you have to do is look at the information add a little common sense in interpreting the rules and you come up with a miss.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

As soon as the shooter fired his 8th shot at target 4 he could no longer complete the stage as designed and required.

To me that means without the need for a miss and without a P.

 

Normal shooting of a stage is done as fast as possible without misses according to the stated stage instructions.

 

If you do not see how his 8th shot takes him outside of being able to accomplish this stage per instructions please explain to me how he would fire 2 shots and not double tap them on target 5 yet have 2 shots hit target 5. Both of those conditions are part of the stage instructions.

 

Griff,

I know that pseudo rule. It is not applicable here. The procedural was going to happen following shot 8 had he not gotten the miss.

In this case it appears as though many are willing to allow the shooter to weasel out of the P by intentionally missing a target.

In any case the miss could not cause this p.

If anything the P was transmogrified into a Miss.

 

Again had he fired all 10 shots as generally accepted in this sport he would have hit targets.

No matter what targets were hit by the last two shots there would have been a P.

If anything in this bizarre case the Miss cleared a P.

 

I still expect all shooters to shoot each stage according to the general rules.

IE hit targets as fast as possible without incurring misses according to the stage instructions.

Misses and procedurals as well as DQs are intended to draw attention to EXCEPTIONS not the norm.

Is that not the game we play?

 

Finally, In a much earlier post I stated that I would probably have left it be at a miss. I most likely would stand by that.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Hacker, I think most of us understand what you are saying, but since the change in rules in 2001, the current rules don't support giving both a miss and a P. The flow charts lists the miss first, then asks about sequence and eliminates the possibility of the P as a result of the miss.

 

I sure understand the common sense, but in applying the rules, I have to go with the rules as written. And I do not believe rules can be written to cover every possibility.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

As soon as the shooter fired his 8th shot at target 4 he could no longer complete the stage as designed and required.

To me that means without the need for a miss and without a P.

 

Normal shooting of a stage is done as fast as possible without misses according to the stated stage instructions.

 

If you do not see how his 8th shot takes him outside of being able to accomplish this stage per instructions please explain to me how he would fire 2 shots and not double tap them on target 5 yet have 2 shots hit target 5. Both of those conditions are part of the stage instructions.

 

Griff,

I know that pseudo rule. It is not applicable here. The procedural was going to happen following shot 8 had he not gotten the miss.

In this case it appears as though many are willing to allow the shooter to weasel out of the P by intentionally missing a target.

In any case the miss could not cause this p.

If anything the P was transmogrified into a Miss.

 

Again had he fired all 10 shots as generally accepted in this sport he would have hit targets.

No matter what targets were hit by the last two shots there would have been a P.

If anything in this bizarre case the Miss cleared a P.

 

I still expect all shooters to shoot each stage according to the general rules.

IE hit targets as fast as possible without incurring misses according to the stage instructions.

Misses and procedurals as well as DQs are intended to draw attention to EXCEPTIONS not the norm.

Is that not the game we play?

 

Finally, In a much earlier post I stated that I would probably have left it be at a miss. I most likely would stand by that.

There is no pseudo rule here. It is printed I black ink. A MISS cannot cause a P. I fully agree that the shooter shot the stage incorrectly. This is about applying the rules as WRITTEN. I don't agree with all of them but they are what they are and we need to follow all of them or we end up shooting different matches at the same competition. If you follow the flow chart you have NO option but a MISS.

 

Shoot each target twice? Yes except for the miss.

No double taps? There were no double taps

 

I fail to see where the shooter did not comply with the stage instructions.

 

Stan

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

One miss ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Moving on ....

 

Next shooter....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Common sense? Common sense?? Really??? Har!!!

 

Two shooters.

 

Shooter 1 hits R5 once and misses once.

 

Shooter 2 puts 2 hits on R5.

 

Y'all are REALLY gonna penalize the shooter with two hits TWICE as hard as the shooter with the miss.

 

And call it common sense???

 

PWB is probly at Winter Range so this will go on for days and pages.

 

BJT, ye have tortured us enuff -- WHAT WAS the call? And was it upheld or what ...

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

In this case...has nothing to do with a Miss causing a P...but rather a Miss preventing a P.

 

Interesting...I would have probably flogged the shooter.

 

[Missouri Ruffian, SASS #70225]

Common sense? Common sense?? Really??? Har!!!

 

Two shooters.

 

Shooter 1 hits R5 once and misses once.

 

Shooter 2 puts 2 hits on R5.

 

Y'all are REALLY gonna penalize the shooter with two hits TWICE as hard as the shooter with the miss.

 

And call it common sense???

 

PWB is probly at Winter Range so this will go on for days and pages.

 

BJT, ye have tortured us enuff -- WHAT WAS the call? And was it upheld or what ...

Yes because the other shooter didn’t have the sense to miss and save 5 seconds of penalty.

[Doc Shapiro]

sigh

 

I know the arguments in favor of calling for a P, and yes, they make logical sense. However, the rule written down on paper in the Handbook and RO1, along with the Miss Flowchart in RO1 don't support calling a P. They only support a miss.

 

So, it's a miss.

 

 

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Poorly written stage. You should not present a stage that requires a shooter to "figure out how to shoot it" that may result in a procedral error.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Yes because the other shooter didn’t have the sense to miss and save 5 seconds of penalty.

 

Didn't have sense enuff to miss??? Huh? The object of the game is to HIT not miss. Or so I have always thot.

 

 

sigh

 

I know the arguments in favor of calling for a P, and yes, they make logical sense. However, the rule written down on paper in the Handbook and RO1, along with the Miss Flowchart in RO1 don't support calling a P. They only support a miss.

 

So, it's a miss.

 

Sigh. right back atcha, Doc.

 

First time I have encountered a situation where the majority agrees it is advantageous to miss a target rather than hit it.

 

Sigh, indeed...

[Badlands Bud #15821]

Okay, so how about this?

 

Shooter picks up the rifle, cycles the action, and the round hangs up. The shooter ejects the round and then engages the targets r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3 r4 r5. The shooter does not have any spare rifle ammunition on his person.

 

The shooter didn't have a tenth round to fire. He engaged the targets in a 9 round sequence which most closely fulfilled the requirements of the stage instructions (he put two on as many targets as he could and one on the last without double tapping).

 

Does this shooter get a P?

[Jackass Jim]

Okay, so how about this?

 

Shooter picks up the rifle, cycles the action, and the round hangs up. The shooter ejects the round and then engages the targets r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3 r4 r5. The shooter does not have any spare rifle ammunition on his person.

 

The shooter didn't have a tenth round to fire. He engaged the targets in a 9 round sequence which most closely fulfilled the requirements of the stage instructions (he put two on as many targets as he could and one on the last without double tapping).

 

Does this shooter get a P?

Only if he gets a mystery Hit

[Doc Shapiro]

Didn't have sense enuff to miss??? Huh? The object of the game is to HIT not miss. Or so I have always thot.

 

 

 

 

Sigh. right back atcha, Doc.

 

First time I have encountered a situation where the majority agrees it is advantageous to miss a target rather than hit it.

 

Sigh, indeed...

 

Pretty much. I do understand your position, and if the rules weren't written as they are, I'd agree with you. Common sense doesn't really apply in this situation. We have to use the rules as they are written. Otherwise we'll end up with different calls for a given situation at a big match. Then there's a real issue to deal with in regards to the competitive aspect.

 

They are actually pretty clear now once you go to the Miss Flow Chart. So long as the targets weren't hit out of order, there's no P. Since the shooter missed a critical shot, they weren't hit out of order.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Poorly written stage. You should not present a stage that requires a shooter to "figure out how to shoot it" that may result in a procedral error.

 

Are you s%$##ing me? Seems to me we're rapidly reaching the point where "poorly written stage" is as common as "should award a Spirit of the Game penalty." As Madd Mike would say,

 

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!

 

EVERY stage requires the shooter to "figure out how to shoot it" one way or the other. Some spell it out in detail. Others give the shooter lots of options.

 

Come on, folks.

 

Steeldust Dan

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Okay, so how about this?

 

Shooter picks up the rifle, cycles the action, and the round hangs up. The shooter ejects the round and then engages the targets r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3 r4 r5. The shooter does not have any spare rifle ammunition on his person.

 

The shooter didn't have a tenth round to fire. He engaged the targets in a 9 round sequence which most closely fulfilled the requirements of the stage instructions (he put two on as many targets as he could and one on the last without double tapping).

 

Does this shooter get a P?

 

Bud, you and the others are not getting it. Firing 8 rounds on 4 targets does NOT "fulfill the requirements of the stage instructions". In fact, it specifically FAILS to do so. As soon as the 8th round smacks R4 the shooter has failed to meet the stage requirements. 8 should be on R5. 9 on R4. 10 on R5. Or you have "P"ed the stage. Miss with 9 or 10 and it's 15 seconds.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Normal shooting of a stage is done as fast as possible without misses according to the stated stage instructions.

 

Normal shooting of a stage is done as fast as possible without misses AND PENALTIES according to the stated stage instructions.

When one finds themself in a No Win situation, a smart shooter is going to find the path of least hardship to take.

This one either got lucky or figured out the lesser penalty during the shooting string.

 

I still expect all shooters to shoot each stage according to the general rules.

 

As long as an action is within the rules - A shooter would be foolish to give up more time than required to complete the task.

This shooters action was perfectly legal.

Is that not the game we play?

 

The game I play is to come away with the lowest time that I am capable of on that stage.

Sounds like the shooter in BJTs example feels the same way.

[Doc Shapiro]

Bud, you and the others are not getting it. Firing 8 rounds on 4 targets does NOT "fulfill the requirements of the stage instructions". In fact, it specifically FAILS to do so. As soon as the 8th round smacks R4 the shooter has failed to meet the stage requirements. 8 should be on R5. 9 on R4. 10 on R5. Or you have "P"ed the stage. Miss with 9 or 10 and it's 15 seconds.

 

Actually, we do get it . And in some regards, agree with your position. However, the rules as currently spelled out don't support your position. Follow the flow chart and it's clear that in order to get a 'P', the targets have to be struck out of order. In other words, don't actually hit the targets out of order, there's no 'P'. Even in the situation under discussion, since the shooter was lucky enough to miss a crucial shot, it's still just a miss. The targets weren't struck out of order.

 

 

That's how the rules are currently written and we must apply them consistently.

 

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Bud, you and the others are not getting it. Firing 8 rounds on 4 targets does NOT "fulfill the requirements of the stage instructions". In fact, it specifically FAILS to do so. As soon as the 8th round smacks R4 the shooter has failed to meet the stage requirements. 8 should be on R5. 9 on R4. 10 on R5. Or you have "P"ed the stage. Miss with 9 or 10 and it's 15 seconds.

Have you stopped to consider that maybe WE are not the ones that are "Not Getting It"?

 

Stan

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

Lone Dog,

somebody has to say it so let it be me.

you are flat out wrong. its time to get a refresher on the RO classes my friend.

the rules are clear about this and several people have tried to show them to you. we dont have to like the rules but we do need to enforce them as theyre written and not as we see fit.

CC

[Dusty Webster # 15372]

Just seems to me to be a somewhat "procedural enriched" stage, coupled with a shooter who did not think it through. Obviously, 2 sweeps of 5 completes the sequence requirement.

 

I attempt to do similar stages, that is to give the shooter some options. I have seen shooters trying to be "tricky" with his/her engagement sequence, thereby causing confusion for the counters.

 

In this case, hopefully the shooter learned a lesson ... and the stage writer re-evaluates the sequence discription to keep it "P" free and fun to shoot. The red flag for me is when I see the counters and timer stumbling with how to call it.

 

But that's just my opinion.