You make the call.......

[BJT]

Stage: 5 targets

 

Procedure: with rifle, hit each target twice with no double taps

 

Shooter hits r1-r2-r1-r2-r3-r4-r3-r4 then misses and then hits r5 with the last round.

 

Counters show 1 miss. What penalty or penalies do you give the shooter?

 

Thanks,

BJT

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

1 miss

[Griff]

Stage: 5 targets

Procedure: with rifle, hit each target twice with no double taps

Shooter hits r1-r2-r1-r2-r3-r4-r3-r4 then misses and then hits r5 with the last round.

Counters show 1 miss. What penalty or penalies do you give the shooter?

Thanks,

BJT

I gotta say, that miss saved him from a P. Can't hardly penalize for what he didn't do. (hit R5 as a double tap, or fail to hit R5 twice).

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

A thinking shooter. If he would have hit any target with 10th round it would have been a P. A miss just caused a miss I would think.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

A miss, no penalty. Is this a trick question

 

 

Jefro

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Mebbeso he realized he was headed for a P and missed on purpose. Smart move, if the posse and RO go for it, and just give him the 5 second miss penalty. I say he needs the P and the miss even if he did not intentionally miss. There was no other place for the missed round to go but on 5 which would have been a P or another rifle target which would also have been a P. Shooter should not be able to weasel out of his brain fahrt by missing, intentionally or not. And no the miss is not causing the P, his failure to follow shooting order causes the P, the miss just being icing on the train wreck cake.

 

I do not think 15 seconds should be considered being a hard ass.

[Griff]

A thinking shooter. If he would have hit any target with 10th round it would have been a P. A miss just caused a miss I would think.

I think you meant over-thinking shooter! Over thought himself into a P, and did the ONLY thing able to avoid it!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Mebbeso he realized he was headed for a P and missed on purpose. Smart move, if the posse and RO go for it, and just give him the 5 second miss penalty. I say he needs the P and the miss even if he did not intentionally miss. There was no other place for the missed round to go but on 5 which would have been a P or another rifle target which would also have been a P. Shooter should not be able to weasel out of his brain fahrt by missing, intentionally or not. And no the miss is not causing the P, his failure to follow shooting order causes the P, the miss just being icing on the train wreck cake.

 

I do not think 15 seconds should be considered being a hard ass.

If yer gonna call him for that then you might as well call a SG 30sec.

RO I page 26

FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME

30-Second Penalty

Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a

competitive advantage.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Mebbeso he realized he was headed for a P and missed on purpose. Smart move, if the posse and RO go for it, and just give him the 5 second miss penalty. I say he needs the P and the miss even if he did not intentionally miss. There was no other place for the missed round to go but on 5 which would have been a P or another rifle target which would also have been a P. Shooter should not be able to weasel out of his brain fahrt by missing, intentionally or not. And no the miss is not causing the P, his failure to follow shooting order causes the P, the miss just being icing on the train wreck cake.

 

I do not think 15 seconds should be considered being a hard ass.

 

Pard,

If you apply the rules as written then I really don't see how you can give him a P. There was no definite shooting order. The caveat was no double taps.

 

From the flow chart

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammunition? NO = Assess Misses

In this case there was only 1 miss

2. Were the targets HIT in the correct order EXCEPT for the misses? YES = No Further Call

 

Stan - who would consider issuing a P as being a hard ass in this case.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

There was no other correct target for the miss to go. He had already put 8 rounds on 4 targets. Only one target, R5, was available for the last 2 rounds. Stage instructions say "no double taps". Therefore there is NO way out of the P. Shooter has shot himself into a box canyon with no legal way out but the P. He should have gone ahead and double tapped R5 (assuming he missed it on purpose) to save the 5 second miss penalty. The 10 second P penalty is a given, no way around it. He shot the stage wrong.

 

15 seconds is the only option other than the 30 second SOG penalty. I would take the 15 seconds quick and keep my yap shut before the other option was thot of.

[Griff]

Lone Dog,

 

From the RO1 Manual:

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

Miss – a failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate firearm type. For further explanation of how to assess a miss, see "Miss Flow Chart" in the appendix to ROI Manual. (see also "5-second Penalties" section of the ROI "PENALTY OVERVIEW")

In your conclusion, the shooter's miss would be the cause of applying a "Procedural". This is against all precepts and the written rule.

"A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL."

Yes, if the shooter had hit any remaining target, he would have received a "Procedural." However, given that we are not to assume which target he was aiming at, it would be unsportsmanlike to give the penalty in this instance... for all we know he was aiming at a pistol target for that would still only yield a "Miss":

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

There was no other correct target for the miss to go. He had already put 8 rounds on 4 targets. Only one target, R5, was available for the last 2 rounds. Stage instructions say "no double taps". Therefore there is NO way out of the P. Shooter has shot himself into a box canyon with no legal way out but the P. He should have gone ahead and double tapped R5 (assuming he missed it on purpose) to save the 5 second miss penalty. The 10 second P penalty is a given, no way around it. He shot the stage wrong.

 

15 seconds is the only option other than the 30 second SOG penalty. I would take the 15 seconds quick and keep my yap shut before the other option was thot of.

 

How would you answer this question.......

 

Were the targets HIT in the correct order EXCEPT for the misses?

 

Stan

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

No Stan they were not. A correct order would have been one in which there was NOT only one target and two shots remaining available. NO double taps is the stage instruction. Only a double tap is available. Or a single shot on R5 and a 3rd shot on R1,2,3,or 4. Therefore incorrect order no matter which he chose = a big fat P. Shooter should have gone ahead and put shot 9 and 10 on R5 to negate the miss. But since he actually did miss or CHOSE to miss 15 seconds accrue. Unless he admits to missing on purpose hoping to avoid the P, we cannot assess the SOG as we cannot prove intent.

[Doc Shapiro]

I gotta say, that miss saved him from a P. Can't hardly penalize for what he didn't do. (hit R5 as a double tap, or fail to hit R5 twice).

 

Yup, you got that right!

[Painted Filly]

I say just a miss. The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Painted Filly

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

A SOG should not even be thought of! It's obvious the shooter did not engage the targets incorrectly to gain an unfair advantage. The shooter DID NOT hit the targets in an incorrect order, therefore ONLY a miss can be called.

[Rattler]

There is NO WAY that you can penalize a shooter for what YOU think he was going to do, ONLY for what he did!!!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

It's a miss.

Nothing more - Nothing less.

 

We complain about the rule book getting too thick?

What about my note book of folks I hope I never get stuck shooting with?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

There is NO WAY that you can penalize a shooter for what YOU think he was going to do, ONLY for what he did!!!

Ta Daaa!!

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Kid Hawkins, SASS # 15254]

How would you answer this question.......

 

Were the targets HIT in the correct order EXCEPT for the misses?

 

Stan

 

Stan,

 

I think you could say they were not. The first seven shots were fine: r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3. But the ONLY way to complete the string at that point (and still hit all the targets) would be to finish it with r5 r4 r5. Instead, his eighth shot went on r4, not r5. So you could argue that he bought his procedural with shot number 8.

 

Kid Hawkins

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Stan,

 

I think you could say they were not. The first seven shots were fine: r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3. But the ONLY way to complete the string at that point (and still hit all the targets) would be to finish it with r5 r4 r5. Instead, his eighth shot went on r4, not r5. So you could argue that he bought his procedural with shot number 8.

 

Kid Hawkins

 

 

He does not have a procedural until AFTER he violates the stage instructions.

Instructions say NO DOUBLETAP.

The rules are not written about intention or what might happen in the future - the rules are written about what event has actually happened.

So unless you can show me where he double tapped - it is impossible to assign a procedural penalty.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan,

 

I think you could say they were not. The first seven shots were fine: r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3. But the ONLY way to complete the string at that point (and still hit all the targets) would be to finish it with r5 r4 r5. Instead, his eighth shot went on r4, not r5. So you could argue that he bought his procedural with shot number 8.

 

Kid Hawkins

 

You could but wouldn't you agree that if we followed the Miss Flow Chart that shooter does not EARN the penaly until he HITS the last target.

 

Depending on target placement......maybe his 8th shot was intended for r5 but hit r4 instead........

 

BJT, did the target placement allow for a CLEAN miss?

 

Stan

[Doc Shapiro]

There is no P until the targets are STRUCK out of order. Intent has nothing to do with it. They must be struck incorrectly. This shooter did not STRIKE the targets incorrectly.

[Stump Water]

Stan,

 

I think you could say they were not. The first seven shots were fine: r1 r2 r1 r2 r3 r4 r3. But the ONLY way to complete the string at that point (and still hit all the targets) would be to finish it with r5 r4 r5. Instead, his eighth shot went on r4, not r5. So you could argue that he bought his procedural with shot number 8.

 

Kid Hawkins

 

How do you know that the shooter didn't intend to finish with R5-R4-R5?

 

ETA: Beat to the draw by Stan & Doc.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

How would you answer this question.......

 

Were the targets HIT in the correct order EXCEPT for the misses?

 

Stan

The instructions don't specify any order which makes it a brain teaser of a stage. Since there's more than one way to shoot the sequence, it's up to the shooter. And the spotters really need to be on their toes.

 

BTW, I agree with other posters that it's just a miss. Can't give him a P for what we think he was thinking.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

I see Lone Dogs point. There is NO correct order through the first 8 shots that leads to the stage being shot according to the instructions.

IE the double tap would be violated.

 

Therefore the flow chart Could be interpreted as

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammunition? NO = Assess Misses

In this case there was only 1 miss

2. Were the targets HIT in the correct order EXCEPT for the misses? No <Proceed to next question>

3. Did the target placement give the shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument? YES = Assess procedural.

 

Note the Could...

 

The Miss saved him from a certain P.

There is no real need here for the SOG. As a miss or a P is certainly not a competitive advantage.

 

I still think I would call it a Miss and let it be.

He did not earn the P because he did not double tap the 5th target.

The instruction no Double tap. Not no double engagement.

[August West, SASS #45079]

Don't really like these conjectures, but I must make an observation.

 

After expending eight rounds on the first four targets -- two each -- there was no way to complete the stage without a procedural.

 

He painted himself into a "P" when he expended the eighth round on target four. Anywhere he put the next two rounds -- ANYWHERE -- would have resulted in a "P".

 

The miss is insignificant.

[Nate Clayton, SASS #63196]

The final two shots could have been defined as 2 consecutive single taps, so the penalty is just a miss.

 

 

Seriously, I am one of them 'benefit of doubt' sorts as well, so I'd call it a miss (I suppose). But I can surely understand the argument that there was clearly a procedural awaiting as the only option after 8 shots.

 

Leave it to BJT to warm it up in February.

 

-Nate

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

 

 

After expending eight rounds on the first four targets -- two each -- there was no way to complete the stage without a procedural.

 

 

The miss is insignificant.

 

He could and did complete the stage without a P by missing one shot.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Don't really like these conjectures, but I must make an observation.

 

After expending eight rounds on the first four targets -- two each -- there was no way to complete the stage without a procedural.

 

He painted himself into a "P" when he expended the eighth round on target four. Anywhere he put the next two rounds -- ANYWHERE -- would have resulted in a "P".

 

The miss is insignificant.

 

After firing all 10 rounds he had indeed complied with the stage instructions (Engage each target twice no double taps) EXCEPT for his miss. The timing of the miss is insignificant.

 

Would you give this shooter a P r1, r2, r1, Miss r2 , r2, r3, r4, r5, r3, r4?

 

Stan

[Widder, SASS #59054]

After firing all 10 rounds he had indeed complied with the stage instructions (Engage each target twice no double taps) EXCEPT for his miss. The timing of the miss is insignificant.

 

Would you give this shooter a P r1, r2, r1, Miss r2 , r2, r3, r4, r5, r3, r4?

 

Stan

 

Ding, ding, ding...

 

And we have a winner!

 

 

..........Widder

[Cash Duckett]

What if the shooter was aiming at r5 when he hit r4 for the second time? 1 miss. Cash

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

After firing all 10 rounds he had indeed complied with the stage instructions (Engage each target twice no double taps) EXCEPT for his miss. The timing of the miss is insignificant.

 

Would you give this shooter a P r1, r2, r1, Miss r2 , r2, r3, r4, r5, r3, r4?

 

Stan

 

No, of course not. But that is a different engagement. Not what happened here in BJT's scenario.

 

Go back in time to before the miss. Shooter has expended 8 rounds on 4 targets with no misses and no double taps. He has 2 rounds left and one target with no hits. He cannot fire one round on R1,2,3,or 4 without incurring a P for a triple tap. He cannot double tap R5 without a P. Why should he be allowed to miss, intentionally or not, to avoid the P he so plainly deserves for not following stage instructions. It's not a matter of intent. His intentions do not enter into it. No one ever intends to get a P.

 

People are being too lenient here and that is laudable. No one wants to call a P on anyone. Sometimes the benefit of the doubt does not apply. It ain't like this is an edger. The shooter ran out of ways to correctly complete the stage. If you do not give him the P which he deserves for the brain fahrt, then (as has been stated here so many times) then you penalize every other shooter who did shoot the stage correctly.

 

I'm sorry, but the shooter did not do what was required. He should not be rewarded for having the presence of mind to "miss" or the luck to actually miss. And thus the posse say good thing you missed and loopholed that one. Nope. There is no actual legal loophole: P for incorrectly shooting the scenario and a miss.

[Rattler]

One more time!

There is NO WAY that you can penalize a shooter for what YOU think he was going to do, ONLY for what he did!!!

[August West, SASS #45079]

One more time!

There is NO WAY that you can penalize a shooter for what YOU think he was going to do, ONLY for what he did!!!

 

My point is, what he DID was run out of degrees of freedom after expending the eighth round. And, after that, there was no option for what he was GOING TO DO.