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Auto Safety on SxS


Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663

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My CAS SxS has an auto safety on it and I will not remove it.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm a bird hunter and the safety on my bird guns never comes off until I'm mounting the gun. So that I don't get into any bad habits that could be dangerous in the uplands, I won't remove the auto safety on my CAS shotgun. Removing the safety on the mount is so ingrained I don't even notice that I'm taking the gun off safe while I'm mounting the SxS in my CAS matches; it just happens.

 

What got me to thinking about this was, I was talking to a police chief yesterday before the match and he was going to shoot Wild Bunch. He said that he wasn't sure he wanted to shoot Wild Bunch too much since his service carry weapon is a 1911 and he didn't want to get into any bad habits shooting Wild Bunch that conflicts with how he carries on the job. I think understand as his reasons.

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Oh Pleeezz!! :blink: What has SASS or Wild Bunch to do with hunting or carrying a service weapon?? :huh: Nothing, two entirely different things. Guess I better stop shooting Wild Bunch for fear it may affect my IDPA game :wacko:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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My CAS SxS has an auto safety on it and I will not remove it.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm a bird hunter and the safety on my bird guns never comes off until I'm mounting the gun. So that I don't get into any bad habits that could be dangerous in the uplands, I won't remove the auto safety on my CAS shotgun. Removing the safety on the mount is so ingrained I don't even notice that I'm taking the gun off safe while I'm mounting the SxS in my CAS matches; it just happens.

 

This comes up for discussion every now and again, with partisans on both sides of the issue. For myself, I'm with Birdgun on this one.

 

It all comes down to safety and training. I also flick off the safety on my SxS shotguns, and don't even think about it. It's just an ingrained action. If I ever get into financial straights and have to sell one (like I did recently) I don't want to have to explain that "Oh, by the way, I disabled the autosafety" and having the buyer either walk or try to beat me down on the price. Some mods are worth making - polished chambers, retimed cocking levers - but playing with the safety isn't one of them. Shaving 1/100 of a second on the shotgun part of a stage isn't going to win me a Cadillac anyway.

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It is great to have a choice. You are used to undoing the safety so that works for you.

 

I can see where a policeman may want to be careful about learning a habit that would interfere with his training.

That is one reason most police ranges no longer use a cold range because it was teaching too many to have any empty gun while in a dangerous situation.

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So I guess all those shotguns without auto safeties from the factory should be sent back for a retrofit. How many millions of guns would that be? Someone that really enjoys an auto safety must quake at the thought of shooting a double and not having an auto safety for the second shot also. I hope every single shooter I am competing with has to take off the auto safety with every load of their CAS gun. For all the new shooters we are talking about the auto safety every time the action is opened, the gun still has a manual safety but the shooter decides when to turn it on and off.

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So what would you do if you had a chance to buy a truly nice s x s bird gun and it didn't have an auto safety ?? Pass on it or learn to put the safety on. you can learn to put a safety on manually it's really not that hard.

 

Dirt Merchant, I agree with you. I have a nice Browning Superposed (picture) that I bought in 1972 which does not have an auto safety and I do remember to put the safety on after the shooting...most of the time. But I also carry the Browning in the field with the safety on and when the bird flushes, flicking off the safety is a part of my mount. That's why I have left the auto safety on my CAS SxS so I have to flick the safety off when mounting the gun. I'd hate to get into the habit of not having to flick off the safety when mounting and miss getting a shot when the covey flushes.

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Both me (Chicken Coop) and my lovely wife (Appalachia Annie) use Stoeger 12 SxS Coach shotguns for CAS matches. We have been shooting our Stoeger shotguns for 13 years now, in CAS matches around the USA. We will be using them shortly at Winter Range. Both have operating tang safeties. IMO, there is little use to disable the tang safeties on our shotgun guns, because we both press the tang safey to "shoot" when mounting our coach shotguns. It's called "muscle motor memory", and does not affect our match stage shooting total time. I will not remove the safety from my Stoeger.

 

Chicken Coop

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Dead horse.

Has been brought up before many times.

No perfect answer that suits all shooters.

SO - make yourself happy and be 100% safe, whatever it takes in your situation. Just don't figure you are going to influence many people to change their well-made-up minds.

 

Good luck, GJ

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This comes up for discussion every now and again, with partisans on both sides of the issue. For myself, I'm with Birdgun on this one.

 

It all comes down to safety and training. I also flick off the safety on my SxS shotguns, and don't even think about it. It's just an ingrained action. If I ever get into financial straights and have to sell one (like I did recently) I don't want to have to explain that "Oh, by the way, I disabled the autosafety" and having the buyer either walk or try to beat me down on the price. Some mods are worth making - polished chambers, retimed cocking levers - but playing with the safety isn't one of them. Shaving 1/100 of a second on the shotgun part of a stage isn't going to win me a Cadillac anyway.

 

Wait... you can win a Caddy in this sport?

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Dead horse.

Has been brought up before many times.

No perfect answer that suits all shooters.

SO - make yourself happy and be 100% safe, whatever it takes in your situation. Just don't figure you are going to influence many people to change their well-made-up minds.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

GJ, my reason really isn't a safety reason. It's a bird hunting reason.

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My CAS SxS has an auto safety on it and I will not remove it.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm a bird hunter and the safety on my bird guns never comes off until I'm mounting the gun. So that I don't get into any bad habits ...

 

 

My CAS SxS has an auto safety on it and I did change it to manual.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm not a bird hunter and I will not get into any bad habits that could be dangerous.

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A lot of High-end Shotguns DO NOT have auto safeties ,,,,, Seems that it all started with Bottom end guns ....

Pumps and Autos don't have "Auto" safeties !!!! And they are far more likley to go bang in an unintended manor ....

 

Put on the saftey when needed ,,,,, and never trust it completely !!!!

A S X S can be carried open in the field and be completely safe with-out any safety .....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I just purchased two very nice "high-end" shotguns from CZ. One is the Bobwhite in 20ga. and it came with no auto-saftey. The safety is manual. The second is the CZ Hammer gun with 30 in. barrels in 12ga. for CAS. It again has no auto-saftey. I guess you get used to what you have and shoot it. The NO auto-safety has not been a problem with either SASS or quail hunting.

Your mileage will vary on this one, Castalia

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interesting when I was taught upland bird hunting as a lad it was with my Mom's 20ga Winchester model 21(plain field grade splinter fore-end and double triggers bored Skeet 1 and skeet 2) and though I still have the shotgun and have put quite a few cases of shells through it in the last 50+ years I could not pinkie swear if it had an auto safety or not. I think it does but I am not 100% sure. tomorrow I will pull it out and check...

 

but I wonder if the way I was taught to carry in the field is in part responsible? I was taught to have the gun open in the crook of my arm shells in place (removed before crossing a fence or other dangerous ground) and the mount included closing the gun as part of the motion. taking an auto-set safety off would become a natural part of that motion I think

 

But I do know the shotgun I pulled from the cabinet for Sass I pulled in part because it does not have an auto safety it is a J P Sauer SxS in 16ga from before WW 1 again with splinter for-end and double trigger and in its case extractors and not ejectors and while I do have a hammer double 12ga that would be fine for SASS (though its 32" barrel length may be a touch against it) I went with the 16 as the gun is more fun to shoot....

 

If it had auto safety would I disable it? no as something like taking off a safety during the mount is just simple muscle memory which even an old dog can learn quickly and I would never disable a system that was a part of the gun as built. mainly as I would not want my heirs in a law suit just for selling such a firearm I might leave to them... that is just one of the sad facts of living in a society where 3 different firms run tv adds during the evening news asking "Have you Been Injured?" with the implication that if you have you may in fact have just won a form of lottery if only you will let them go after any one with deep pockets that may be in any way connected to said injury. :angry:

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Being new to SASS..When I bought my S x S I never thought of the safety.

 

I starting shooting with it and to tell the truth I never even thought of it ,

but I was moving the safety off as I was putting the gun up to my shoulder.

When someone said I should disable the safety I simple was shocked.WHY??

It just became natural to me and never looked back.

 

Simple a matter of choiceI guess.

Not sure this will be of any help, but just my observation.

KK

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Different stokes.

 

You are what you train. If you are used to a safety and automatically knock it to fire, that's great. If you don't have a safety and handle it fine, that's good too. Whether you are talking firearms, firefighting or baseball, it works the same way.

 

If you wish to see the effect of someone who is not used to a safety, but needs to shoot a gun with one, switch shotguns between a safety and non safety at the start of the match and put them under pressure. Both shooter will have problems because, under stress, they revert to their training. I try to align all my guns to the way I play, practice and protect myself.

 

Buffalo Slim

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My CAS SxS has an auto safety on it and I did change it to manual.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm not a bird hunter and I will not get into any bad habits that could be dangerous.

 

+1

 

Never owned a SXS before CAS, and probably will never use one for anything other than CAS.

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Different stokes.

 

You are what you train. If you are used to a safety and automatically knock it to fire, that's great. If you don't have a safety and handle it fine, that's good too. Whether you are talking firearms, firefighting or baseball, it works the same way.

 

If you wish to see the effect of someone who is not used to a safety, but needs to shoot a gun with one, switch shotguns between a safety and non safety at the start of the match and put them under pressure. Both shooter will have problems because, under stress, they revert to their training. I try to align all my guns to the way I play, practice and protect myself.

 

Buffalo Slim

 

I had a perfect example of that idea, years ago!!!

I owned Piper Cubs for over 30 years. I had hundreds of hours on it.. I never had an electric system or a starter!!! I always practiced engine failures knowing I had no starter.

In 1994 got a EAA Biplane with a bigger engine and an electrical system with electric starter!!

After flying it for about 15 hours or so...I had an engine failure on takeoff!!! Force of habit I never even thought of trying the electric starter!!!

Looking back I now realized I reverted to my 30 years of impulse reaction!

Didn't mean to bore you Pards. Just thought it fit what Buffalo Slim was saying.

KK

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For those of you bird hunters who carry you doubles open in the field. I do the same most of the time when hunting quail behind pointing dogs. When the dog goes on point, I close the gun but the safety stays on until the birds flush. On pheasant and grouse, I hunt with the gun closed and safety on, even with pointing dogs.

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Good Goosh.

 

If ya don't want to disable it DON'T.

Nobody is making you. :blink::wacko:

 

If ya do want to make it a manual. Go ahead. It's your gun. :huh:

 

What in the world is so hard about that. :unsure:

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It's second nature to use it for me - no need to disengage it. Plus it's good if a new shooter comes along and they need to use a SG it's an added safety feature....no big deal. Folks have their preference ~ this is mine ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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would I disable it? no as something like taking off a safety during the mount is just simple muscle memory which even an old dog can learn quickly and I would never disable a system that was a part of the gun as built.

Doc, your a gent I can relate to and agree with 100%!

Unfortunately, the shotgun is the least experienced firearm with CAS shooters and folks have not trained their mind to have the mental/muscle exercise shooting a shotgun with any type of safety. That's why the removals are a too frequent discussion and IMHO, an unsafe modification.

 

For me, I'd bet big money that I can make any shotgun go bang with a safety of any type compared to those folks that 'need' to remove or modify them. Why? I grew up with shotguns. Safe off and putting safe on became an automatic act whether I was hunting, shooting skeet, trap or CAS in the course of 50 some years. BTW, last count, I have 27 shotguns of all types, makes and models :D

 

I have wondered why some 'brilliant' CAS shooter that wants to remove the safety has not asked how to make an external cock hammer SxS shoot without cocking the hammers? ;)

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I have wondered why some 'brilliant' CAS shooter that wants to remove the safety has not asked how to make an external cock hammer SxS shoot without cocking the hammers? ;)

 

Hmm-m-m... A double trigger double action self-cocking hammered SxS... Why not? :P

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Jefro, that should open the ball! ^_^

Thanks Birdgun, just doing my duty as a Black Powder Baptist :)

 

I have wondered why some 'brilliant' CAS shooter that wants to remove the safety has not asked how to make an external cock hammer SxS shoot without cocking the hammers? ;)

Oh Pleeezz!! :blink: We ain't talking about removing the manual safety, just the auto-safety for SASS competition, not bird hunting or the swat team. :wacko: I don't remember an auto-safety being on the SXS I used for hunting as a young teen, but I did know how to use the manual one and handle it safely in the field. The shooter that uses a hammer double does that by choice, we ain't as stoopid as you think. I know I may not have the vast experiance that you do, but I do hunt and shoot skeet, IDPA, CFDA..etc, and know the difference between SASS and the rest. Some of us really can handle more than one firearm or sport without one effecting the other. ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Oh Pleeezz!! :blink: We ain't talking about removing the manual safety, just the auto-safety for SASS competition, not bird hunting or the swat team. :wacko: I don't remember an auto-safety being on the SXS I used for hunting as a young teen, but I did know how to use the manual one and handle it safely in the field. The shooter that uses a hammer double does that by choice, we ain't as stoopid as you think. I know I may not have the vast experiance that you do, but I do hunt and shoot skeet, IDPA, CFDA..etc, and know the difference between SASS and the rest. Some of us really can handle more than one firearm or sport without one effecting the other. ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

+1

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For those of you bird hunters who carry you doubles open in the field. I do the same most of the time when hunting quail behind pointing dogs. When the dog goes on point, I close the gun but the safety stays on until the birds flush. On pheasant and grouse, I hunt with the gun closed and safety on, even with pointing dogs.

 

Well there you go. If you can do the above, I'm sure you can differentiate from shooting CAS shotgun with manual safety. It ain't hard.

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I can see where a policeman may want to be careful about learning a habit that would interfere with his training.

That is one reason most police ranges no longer use a cold range because it was teaching too many to have any empty gun while in a dangerous situation.

 

I hope you're not serious.

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Birdgun, I've got over 40 years of bird hunting, and I use a TTN double that has not auto or manual safety, I'm the safety. I transition between bird hunting guns, over and unders and semi autos guns without problems, I don't see it being a problem with bird hunting, I periodcally recheck my bird gun safety in the field especially before I cross a fence or a creek.

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How can this be?

 

1) I've shot guns since I was very young.

 

2) I've never shot myself or came close to doing so.

 

3) I've never shot anyone else or came close to doing so.

 

4) I've never used a gun with an auto safety.

 

 

BQ, if you are more comfortable and happy using your auto safety, more power to you...as long as you don't expect me to do the same. In order to stay consistent though, you need to bird hunt with an empty gun and load when you hear the sound of the beep fluttering wings. :D

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He certainly is. How you train is how you will respond under stress. Proven fact, over and over.

Quite right. I don't bird hunt, much... but my 870 skeet and hunting gun has the same safety as my squad riot gun, one of many reasons I use a double in SASS... different gun, different habits. I disabled the auto safety on my twice-by... but I never carried one when on duty... and never intended to.

 

However, I understand Birdgun Quail's point. And respect his right to his way. Just as I hope he'd respect mine.

 

What I don't understand is the point of all this. Stirring of pots should be left up to witches and warlocks.

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If you are already used to taking the safety off everytime you shoulder the gun, then it probably doesn't slow you down any. Leave the auto safety stock if it makes you happy.

 

Since the only time I will ever shoot a double is in SASS, I have no need for the safety so I disabled the auto feature.

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