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open? closed?


johny two horse

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What is the definition of a closed action and an open action. I didn't see it in the Handbook. I have always thought that a closed action was an action in battery and open was anything that wasn't closed. For instance, if you laid down a rifle with the lever open 1 inch from the stock is that open? If not how about half way open?How about a sxs laid down with the action nearly closed but not latched? A fully open action is easy to understand but I don't see that term being used. This seems like a real common sense thing but maybe not so.

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Action open is like your girl friend telling you shes pregnant.

Either she is or she aint. There are no degrees.

 

If the action is NOT CLOSED - then IT IS OPEN.

There are no degrees. And no requirement that the action be FULLY open.

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For our purposes I think most would want your action fully open, although it probably depends on the club on how strictly that is enforced. I've seen the shooter throw a gun down at the end of a string and sometimes the lever might move a little or a SxS close a little, no big deal. But carrying to the loading or unloading table it should most likely be open all the way, just so nobody gets nervous.

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Hi Johnny,

 

I checked the newest ROI glossary and found that you are correct. However, my notes from the Summit indicate that a definition is in the works. Following is what I wrote in my notes.

“Action Open,” Definition

• The ROC is working on a definition for the glossary.

• It may say something to the effect that an “action is open when you can visually determine the existence of a round in the action.”

• More work on this is needed due to the nature of the ’73 and Lightening rifles, as you can see a round with the action closed.

 

Hey PWB or Snakebite, will a definition be forthcoming?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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If it taint completely closed then it is open.

 

CC

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Oh fer gawds sake...do we really need another rule definition?

 

If it ain't closed...as in the position that would allow the gun to go bang...then it's "Open".

 

Come on folks...

 

:wacko:

 

They's closed, then they's everything else.

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I hope this isn't one of those situations where the 'real meaning' of 'IF' is clouding the issue.

 

Ifn the door is closed ..... its closed.

 

Ifn its cracked open or fully swung wide.....its open.

 

Never heard the term 'cracked shut'.

 

 

..........Widder

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I guess I'm just a little slow witted but let me make sure I understand this. On a Marlin, the lever has to move downward about an inch before the bolt starts to disengage. If I were to lay my wife's Marlin down with the lever down, let us say, one half inch from the stock, bolt closed, I would not get a MSV? And if I were to carry that rifle to the unload table in the same condition no one would tell me to open action? On my '73, are you saying that the action is open if I am not holding the lever against the detent so any time I lay it down it would automatically be open. I can also lay a sxs shotgun down in such a manner that it appears to be closed but isn't quite latched, I would have thought that to be a MSV also.

I thank you for setting me straight but I do anticipate some future disagreement from RO

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I hope this isn't one of those situations where the 'real meaning' of 'IF' is clouding the issue.

 

Ifn the door is closed ..... its closed.

 

Ifn its cracked open or fully swung wide.....its open.

 

Never heard the term 'cracked shut'.

 

 

..........Widder

 

:lol: hope those fellers keep their 'cracks' shut

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I guess I'm just a little slow witted but let me make sure I understand this. On a Marlin, the lever has to move downward about an inch before the bolt starts to disengage. If I were to lay my wife's Marlin down with the lever down, let us say, one half inch from the stock, bolt closed, I would not get a MSV?

 

Let's see - You answered your own question.

The rule does not say anything about lever position - it says ACTION open. If the bolt is still closed, then the action is closed - MSV.

 

And if I were to carry that rifle to the unload table in the same condition no one would tell me to open action? On my '73, are you saying that the action is open if I am not holding the lever against the detent so any time I lay it down it would automatically be open.

 

There again - it has nothing to do with the lever position - it is the ACTION (which includes the bolt). It the bolt is all the way forward, the action is closed. If the bolt IS NOT all the way forward, the action is open.

I can also lay a sxs shotgun down in such a manner that it appears to be closed but isn't quite latched, I would have thought that to be a MSV also.

 

A SxS that is NOT closed is open.

I thank you for setting me straight but I do anticipate some future disagreement from RO

 

They will be wrong.

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I hope this isn't one of those situations where the 'real meaning' of 'IF' is clouding the issue.

 

Ifn the door is closed ..... its closed.

 

Ifn its cracked open or fully swung wide.....its open.

 

Never heard the term 'cracked shut'.

 

 

..........Widder

 

now that thar is funny

and the truth

 

like many others have said

its either open

or closed

 

thats my vote 2

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Ever heard of an "out-of-battery" discharge ,,,,,,,,, like in not fully closed 66 ????

 

Was it closed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,according to some here NO ...... Is it safe NO ??? Can it happen YES .....

 

Was the 66 open ????? partly,,,, Yes ....

 

What is open then ,,,,,,,,,, How far ???

 

Fully open is to my way of thinking prefered ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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More "Make Work" for the Rules Committee?

 

Sorta like that man said about something or other, "I knows it when I sees it, but it's sure hard to define."

 

 

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I agree - either it is open or it is closed.

However, as a common courtesy to those around you, and to put everyone's mind at ease, I would say that fully open should be the accepted standard.

Anyone around you should be able to look at your firearms and quickly see that they are clear.

IMO, a simple 'Hey, your action isn't fully open', or a 'Hey, your lever started closing on the way to the next stage' would be ok and shouldn't offend anyone.

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Once again I stand corrected, I had always thought that the action of a firearm was the sum of the working parts, now I understand that action means the bolt. So where is the bolt in a single action revolver? And if it doesn't have a bolt does that mean it doesn't have an action? Sometimes I get a real kick out of playing devil's advocate, I think it comes from having been a mechanical engineer in my earlier life. I agree that any actin out of battery is open, but I don't necessarily agree that having the bolt cracked open 1/8 inch meets the intent of the open action call. My point was that all rules should be clearly written to the point where the reader can interpret them in one way only. Rules should be black or white, there is no room for shades of grey. Thank you all for posting, I believe it made for a most interesting discussion. I also believe that Zach got it right. J2H

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.. My point was that all rules should be clearly written to the point where the reader can interpret them in one way only. Rules should be black or white, there is no room for shades of grey...

Uh Oh,

 

We've got lots of grey as you will see if you read "what's the call" threads.

 

Anyway, it's always a pleasure to have a newbie around to keep things from getting "boring." ;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Don't let the comments on "dead horse" topics bother you. :unsure: What I mean is newbies often ask questions about things that have been beat to death, became sore subjects....

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Once again I stand corrected, I had always thought that the action of a firearm was the sum of the working parts, now I understand that action means the bolt. So where is the bolt in a single action revolver? And if it doesn't have a bolt does that mean it doesn't have an action? Sometimes I get a real kick out of playing devil's advocate, I think it comes from having been a mechanical engineer in my earlier life. I agree that any actin out of battery is open, but I don't necessarily agree that having the bolt cracked open 1/8 inch meets the intent of the open action call. My point was that all rules should be clearly written to the point where the reader can interpret them in one way only. Rules should be black or white, there is no room for shades of grey. Thank you all for posting, I believe it made for a most interesting discussion. I also believe that Zach got it right. J2H

 

 

The bolt in a single action revolver is the little thingy that sticks up inside the frame to lock the cylinder in place so it will not rotate. Its other function is to create a ring around your cylinder.

 

MY definition of action open is ALL THE WAY OPENED where by the action will not open any further. Any thing else is closed. That's just for me. I will not hold others to my standards.

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Once again I stand corrected, I had always thought that the action of a firearm was the sum of the working parts, now I understand that action means the bolt. So where is the bolt in a single action revolver? And if it doesn't have a bolt does that mean it doesn't have an action? Sometimes I get a real kick out of playing devil's advocate, I think it comes from having been a mechanical engineer in my earlier life. I agree that any actin out of battery is open, but I don't necessarily agree that having the bolt cracked open 1/8 inch meets the intent of the open action call. My point was that all rules should be clearly written to the point where the reader can interpret them in one way only. Rules should be black or white, there is no room for shades of grey. Thank you all for posting, I believe it made for a most interesting discussion. I also believe that Zach got it right. J2H

 

I will try to respond without being too rude.

The whole idea of "Action Open" is the firearm is not likely to fire.

While we tend to think of all the parts being inter related - thats not the concern here.

The concern is that the bolt is backed away from the breech - so even if there is a round in chamber, a firing pin will not contact.

If the bolt remains closed with the lever open - the firearm is still in battery.

if the bolt is open with the lever closed - the lever position would be moot.

 

Our rules as written ARE the rules - Possible intent, while an interesting discussion and debate subject means nothing if it is not written.

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The bolt in a single action revolver is the little thingy that sticks up inside the frame to lock the cylinder in place so it will not rotate. Its other function is to create a ring around your cylinder.

 

MY definition of action open is ALL THE WAY OPENED where by the action will not open any further. Any thing else is closed. That's just for me. I will not hold others to my standards.

 

In which case, every time you set down a SxS shotgun, I will give you a minor safety penalty.

 

Practically all internal hammer SxS guns slightly close whenever the barrel is not holding down the springs - and quite often, you have to hold the barrel down to have it fully open.

Similarly, most 97's will simetimes close up to a 1/4 of an inch when you set them down.

 

And the rifles will very often slightly close when you set them on even a flat table, let along some of the other props commonly used.

 

So I am thinking some of you have not thought this out well at all.

 

Again, we have penalties if an empty cartridge or live cartridge is left in the action. So the rule about an open action is primarily so we can verify that no dangerous empty cartridge - or live cartridge is in the action.

 

Plus, the practicality of requiring and verifying that the action is "fully open" would be cumbersome and may require a committee to examine the gun before the shooter picks it up. That would be fun!!!

 

As to concerns about out of battery incidents - see the rules about empty guns. Plus most out of battery discharges for rifles and 97's are from the extractors - and generally, the gun is pretty much open when they happen.

 

Yes, we want to be safe, but we still want to shoot guns without having them locked down.

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I swear...some people are soooo damn anal about things.

 

May I suggest to those that all of a sudden see a weakness in the current rules to please just go with what the vast majority of folks that have been here for a while are saying.

 

Spend more time shooting and less time trying to fix something that is working, has been working...and will continue to work JUST fine.

 

Oy!!!!!!

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Well, this is covered in the RO materials. It is the same for SASS as for IDPA or NRA RO's. The RO needs to be able to SEE the empty chamber and mag before the firearm is considered clear and open.

We see a lot of holsters, clothing or costuming hit a long gun and it start to close. As an RO, I will grab it and open and follow the shooter. BUT, there is no advantage to the shooter if they have to transition BACK to the rifle or shotgun to clear a chamber. Nor is there an advantage if a shooter holsters a pistol with a hammer back, so we usually only have to do this once and the shooter adapts.

 

With the rifles, we usually only have this happen on the odd stages where we have 8 or 9 rounds. Shotguns, usually not a problem unless this is a firearm shot in the middle of the sequence and a round doesn't eject (done that myself, thanks Blackfish, Darlin!)

 

I understand your question as to "what is" but the answer is "what is safe"? Hope this helps!

 

Phantom, Honey, "HI"(LOL) he's new and asking!!! Could be worse, could be new and an a$$!!!

 

V

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......." he's new and asking!!! Could be worse, could be new and an a$$!!! "

 

 

................... could be old and an a$$ too .....

 

 

 

 

 

the rules don't say "partly open" ....

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Why not just use the dictionary?

 

 

 

 

closed |klōzd|

 

adjective

 

not open : rooms with closed doors lined the hallway | he sat with his eyes closed.

 

• (of a business) having ceased trading, esp. for a short period : he put the “Closed” sign up on the door.

 

• no longer under discussion or investigation; concluded : closed cases of alleged contract irregularities.

 

• (of a society or system) not communicating with or influenced by others; independent : the perception of the Soviet Union as a closed society | a closed system in which income and expenditure must balance.

 

• limited to certain people; not open or available to all : the UN Security Council met in closed session.

 

• unwilling to accept new ideas : you're facing the situation with a closed mind.

 

• Mathematics (of a set) having the property that the result of a specified operation on any element of the set is itself a member of the set.

 

• Mathematics (of a set) containing all its limit points.

 

• Geometry of or pertaining to a curve whose ends are joined.

 

 

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......." he's new and asking!!! Could be worse, could be new and an a$$!!! "

 

 

................... could be old and an a$$ too .....

 

 

 

 

 

the rules don't say "partly open" ....

 

Are you saying you're an a$$???

 

Again, the rules do not say FULLY OPEN, just OPEN.

 

OY!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I've often wondered why CAS don't use chamber flags like the NRA does.

I realize that it wouldn't work for a revolver but revolvers don't seem to be the concern here.

 

WWW

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I've often wondered why CAS don't use chamber flags like the NRA does.

I realize that it wouldn't work for a revolver but revolvers don't seem to be the concern here.

 

WWW

 

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