Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Poor guy GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Might as well jump in here... From the description the stage was at "Anvil Al's Blacksmitth shop" at Comin at Cha. I could be wrong. In that stage, my posse marshall made it very clear how the rifle was to be restaged and gave a warning about the lever closing as it can sometimes be a problem. The shooting position for the shotgun is down range at a 45 degree angle from the line (direction of muzzle) of where the rifle is restaged, as long as the rifle was restaged in the correct place (no matter the lever open or closed) there is no way it would cover the shooter either moving to, or at the position to shoot the shotgun. I remember that stage well, I moved to the table with the shotgun, picked up up, loaded two, went to close it and it fell apart on me. BOTTOM LINE - Muzzle control is the shooter's responsibility. And even if the shooter had tripped on a tree root or door frame or he was distracted by naked skydivers or whatever and swept past the 170, they still get the DQ. You are correct Griz. My posse but another TO at time of shooter in question's run. Agree that MSV was called after shooter had drawn revolver and fired but I believe the noise about lever may have come from someone other than TO or spooter, hope so anyway because if spooter or TO this was certainly interfearance (as Critter and others suggest). As to sweep call, I believe this was mostly called quickly by some at loading table (which is fairly close in this stage). It was fairly obvious in the details that shooter got distracted late, but the sweep took any question out of situation as to help in re-shoot. I remember the issue coming to me as PM, but as we have mentioned, the sweep took away any consideration for re-shoot. Bad luck all the way around for the shooter and one of those calls that does not make a pleasant day for the PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Jack, Oh Dear, what if the shooter had a squib and didn't realize it while the TO was dealing with the rifle. Just asking... Regards, Allie Mo +1 that is not the RO's responsibility it is the shooters. anything that takes the RO's attention from the shooter is not a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I've surmised this from my reading of these post: In the circumstances of this rifle, SOMEBODY better ensure safety before ANYONE moves downrange because you have a COCKED and closed action on an unattended firearm. And before anyone claims its not a safety issue lying dormant on the table, I'll be the first to say that the rifle in this condition is safer in someones hands than just lying there..........waiting to be bumped, nudged or even shaken by a good wind. As allowed for all of us, Creeker would have the right to request a 'reshoot'. And then the MD would have to exercise his/her right to determine a decision. That's about as simple as it gets on this. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Jack, Oh Dear, what if the shooter had a squib and didn't realize it while the TO was dealing with the rifle. Just asking... Regards, Allie Mo Asking a shooter to come back uprange after he's got pistol(s) out or has picked up a shotgun is just plain stupid. More things could go wrong there than if ya simply yank the lever open on the rifle on the way by, or pick up tjhe rifle by the forearm and hold it out for a spotter/helper to take it away, then catch up with the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Creeker, you are absolutely right. If what you describe happens here (I'm the MD) you WILL get a reshoot with the MSV carrying forward. Now, if you sweep someone, I can't help you with that. It really doesn't matter who you are, the rules are the rules, what we would like them to be is a different issue. Absolutely. I was just commenting on the wire tendency to pile on. The MSV was already earned. As noted in the OP, the shooter would be 20 ft downrange at a 45 degree angle away from the muzzle, so it is not a "Safety" issue. No one was in any danger, shooter or TO. Calling the shooter back to open the lever was unneccesary and unfairly penalizes the shooter. Failing to control their muzzle is a COMPLETELY separate issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny two horse Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I have no problem with the reshoot, I do have a problem with being down range with a cocked rifle behind by back, as Widder points out things happen. Remember from that original post we don't know which way it is pointed or if it's loaded, do you have a good argument against safety first? If so I would love to heart it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I have no problem with the reshoot, I do have a problem with being down range with a cocked rifle behind by back, as Widder points out things happen. Remember from that original post we don't know which way it is pointed or if it's loaded, do you have a good argument against safety first? If so I would love to heart it. Original post states that the rifle was placed into a horse prop and the action closed. If it is within a horse prop on a downrange stage, then I will ASSUME that the muzzle is either pointed directly downrange or even canted downrange slightly the opposite direction from the downrange movement (the direction we set horses when we use them for downrange movement). Original post also states that the shooter was to move downrange 20 feet at a 45 DEGREE angle to their shotgun. If the shooter moved 20 ft downrange at 45 degrees from the firing line (moving 28 ft) - he ends up 20 ft offset to the muzzle line of the rifle. If the shooter moved 20 ft along that 45 degree angle downrange (moving 15 ft from the firing line) - he ends up 15 ft offset from the muzzle line of the rifle. An unhandled firearm pointed nearly 4 YARDS off to my side is not a danger to anyone. Being safe is of utmost importance - but ridiculous requirements under the guise of being safe are not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny two horse Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ok You win, you can base your safety on ASSUME.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Original post states that the rifle was placed into a horse prop and the action closed. If it is within a horse prop on a downrange stage, then I will ASSUME that the muzzle is either pointed directly downrange or even canted downrange slightly the opposite direction from the downrange movement (the direction we set horses when we use them for downrange movement). Original post also states that the shooter was to move downrange 20 feet at a 45 DEGREE angle to their shotgun. If the shooter moved 20 ft downrange at 45 degrees from the firing line (moving 28 ft) - he ends up 20 ft offset to the muzzle line of the rifle. If the shooter moved 20 ft along that 45 degree angle downrange (moving 15 ft from the firing line) - he ends up 15 ft offset from the muzzle line of the rifle. An unhandled firearm pointed nearly 4 YARDS off to my side is not a danger to anyone. Being safe is of utmost importance - but ridiculous requirements under the guise of being safe are not needed. Creeker, This was your typical horse with rack like EOT, WR, etc, shooter retreived rifle from horse rack and could then stand at rear or either side of horse to engage rifle targets then put rifle back on horse rack (left or right side). They could engage revolver targets from there or move to side of horse (if engaged rifle targets from rear of horse). Shotgun is thru an opening to shooters right and slightly down range to horse but rifle muzzle is quite safe to shooter going to and at shotgun. As I remember, this shooter was to side of horse just outside of doorway leading to shotgun when engaging pistol targets so when call was made that rifle lever was closed by whoever (agreeing that it was to late) he turned to left toward horse and TO but not watching muzzle of revolver and it was apparently sweeping some at loading table. Not sure whether it sweep TO or not. I think you have the right picture. Unfortunate and a reshoot was probably about to be due until the sweep. A real tough situation as shooter was having a really good match, at least nine stages of it, SDQ possibly knocked him out of first down to 3rd which is still pretty good considering a SDQ. See ya at WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Buk Chuck SASS # 24540 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Creeker in my opinion is right on the mark. NBC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokey Shayne Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I doubt I would call the shooter back to open the lever, but I would probably open the lever or indicate for someone to take care of it. If its a safety issue to shoot the next gun with the lever closed...it is a safety issue for the remainder of the stage. It should be addressed. I may yell "lever" as soon as I see it, but if the shooter has already earned the MSV, I wont say anything more. No point in distracting them any further if someone else or myself can either open the lever or remove the gun from the stage. But..again, thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Oso, SASS #57788L Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 OMG- Did NONE of you attend the SW Regionals at BB3 this year? (Except Grizz and Billy Boots. As I re-read the discussion it seems a whole page 2 was added while I wrote this- so - sorry for restating what was said before I clicked send. That's what happens when ya "proof-read!") I, too, know that stage set up well. You start off, back to the stage with a hammer in one hand, a horseshoe in the other. You bang the hammer on the horseshoe on the anvil and then say yore line. When the buzzer goes off you turn around (180 degrees), and retrieve your rifle from which ever side of the wooden horse you chose to stage it on. The wooden horse has two wooden protrusions (NO SCABBARD) upon which to both stage and lay the O & E rifle (they DONT have to be the same side), then you move 45 degrees to the right downrange, and AWAY from the rifle to another position to shoot the pistol targets (thankfully them itty bitty chickens were gone this time!). After the pistols are shot, the shooter continues to move right toward the SG, which is staged in a little Steel enclosure. So any "competitive shooter" would be holstering one pistol on the move while grabbing SG Shells with the other hand (with the pistol barrel pointing down and (hopefully) heading into the holster. At BB3, the club rules state, "Plant (yer feat), then Poke (yer SG Shells). The ONLY person who could have been swept was the poor guy assigned to the Unloading table, which was was also DOWNRANGE- on a horizontal line from the shotgun position, as the shooter turned right and began to holster...... unless the shooter stops his forward and downrange progress and turns to look back to see and hear what all the commotion was! I was not on Jack's posse (thankfully! hahaha), so I did not witness the "Chinese Firedrill" to which he was subjected. But if I were in his position, holstering my second pistol while drawing my SG Shells, and heard "everyone yelling at me", I may have turned to SEE what they were saying. As much as I hate to admit this, I know Jack, and he knows his sh!t. I seriously doubt anyone other than the Unloading table person could possibly have had that second pistol pointed at him. Jack, as I learned this past saturday (when I encountered my very first "shotgun targets must be shot in a certain order") "STUFF HAPPENS". (First time I ever PEED on a shotgun!!) Jack, I'm sorry everybody yelled at you, and you did the right thing to ignore them and go on. Now, you know me, and I NEVER give "advice", but had that same thing happened to me, I would have stopped before I even got to the SG, called RO interference, and headed to the ULT for a reshoot. Keep that in mind, in case there's a "next time". BTW-I PLAN to use the 1911 mag pouch tomorrow. WISH ME GOOD LUCK! FWIW..YMMV..SOso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 OMG- Did NONE of you attend the SW Regionals at BB3 this year? I know that stage set up well. You start off, back to the stage with a hammer in one hand, a horseshoe in the other. You bang the hammer on the horseshoe on the anvil and then say yore line. When the buzzer goes off you turn around (180 degrees), and retrieve your rifle from which ever side of the wooden horse you chose to stage it on. The wooden horse has two wooden protrusions (NO SCABBARD) upon which to both stage and lay the O & E rifle (they DONT have to be the same side), then you move 45 degrees to the right downrange, and AWAY from the rifle to another position to shoot the pistol targets (thankfully them itty bitty chickens were gone this time!). After the pistols are shot, the shooter continues to move right toward the SG, which is staged in a little Steel enclosure. So any "competitive shooter" would be holstering one pistol on the move while grabbing SG Shells with the other hand (with the pistol barrel pointing down and (hopefully) heading into the holster. At BB3, the club rules state, "Plant (yer feat), then Poke (yer SG Shells). The ONLY person who could have been swept was the poor guy assigned to the Unloading table, which was was also DOWNRANGE- on a horizontal line from the shotgun position, as the shooter turned right and began to holster...... unless the shooter stops his forward and downrange progress and turns to look back to see and hear what all the commotion was! I was not on Jack's posse (thankfully! hahaha), so I did not witness the "Chinese Firedrill" to which he was subjected. But if I were in his position, holstering my second pistol while drawing my SG Shells, and heard "everyone yelling at me", I may have turned to SEE what they were saying. As much as I hate to admit this, I know Jack, and he knows his sh!t. I seriously doubt anyone other than the Unloading table person could possibly have had that second pistol pointed at him. Jack, as I learned this past saturday (when I encountered my very first "shotgun targets must be shot in a certain order") "STUFF HAPPENS". (First time I ever PEED on a shotgun!!) Jack, I'm sorry everybody yelled at you, and you did the right thing to ignore them and go on. Now, you know me, and I NEVER give "advice", but had that same thing happened to me, I would have stopped before I even got to the SG, called RO interference, and headed to the ULT for a reshoot. Keep that in mind, in case there's a "next time". BTW-I PLAN to use the 1911 mag pouch tomorrow. WISH ME GOOD LUCK! FWIW..YMMV..SOso Oso, He turned left toward horse and unfortunately the loading table not right toward unloading table. b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 OMG- Did NONE of you attend the SW Regionals at BB3 this year? (Except Grizz and Billy Boots. As I re-read the discussion it seems a whole page 2 was added while I wrote this- so - sorry for restating what was said before I clicked send. That's what happens when ya "proof-read!") I, too, know that stage set up well. You start off, back to the stage with a hammer in one hand, a horseshoe in the other. You bang the hammer on the horseshoe on the anvil and then say yore line. When the buzzer goes off you turn around (180 degrees), and retrieve your rifle from which ever side of the wooden horse you chose to stage it on. The wooden horse has two wooden protrusions (NO SCABBARD) upon which to both stage and lay the O & E rifle (they DONT have to be the same side), then you move 45 degrees to the right downrange, and AWAY from the rifle to another position to shoot the pistol targets (thankfully them itty bitty chickens were gone this time!). After the pistols are shot, the shooter continues to move right toward the SG, which is staged in a little Steel enclosure. So any "competitive shooter" would be holstering one pistol on the move while grabbing SG Shells with the other hand (with the pistol barrel pointing down and (hopefully) heading into the holster. At BB3, the club rules state, "Plant (yer feat), then Poke (yer SG Shells). The ONLY person who could have been swept was the poor guy assigned to the Unloading table, which was was also DOWNRANGE- on a horizontal line from the shotgun position, as the shooter turned right and began to holster...... unless the shooter stops his forward and downrange progress and turns to look back to see and hear what all the commotion was! I was not on Jack's posse (thankfully! hahaha), so I did not witness the "Chinese Firedrill" to which he was subjected. But if I were in his position, holstering my second pistol while drawing my SG Shells, and heard "everyone yelling at me", I may have turned to SEE what they were saying. As much as I hate to admit this, I know Jack, and he knows his sh!t. I seriously doubt anyone other than the Unloading table person could possibly have had that second pistol pointed at him. Jack, as I learned this past saturday (when I encountered my very first "shotgun targets must be shot in a certain order") "STUFF HAPPENS". (First time I ever PEED on a shotgun!!) Jack, I'm sorry everybody yelled at you, and you did the right thing to ignore them and go on. Now, you know me, and I NEVER give "advice", but had that same thing happened to me, I would have stopped before I even got to the SG, called RO interference, and headed to the ULT for a reshoot. Keep that in mind, in case there's a "next time". BTW-I PLAN to use the 1911 mag pouch tomorrow. WISH ME GOOD LUCK! FWIW..YMMV..SOso What makes you think it was ME???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tom Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 The Idea of opening the shooter rifle is a bad one. If it is not sweeping anyone leave it alone. Your giving this shooter a 10 sec penalty he is probably going to want to see the rifle for himself. This has been stressed at alot of shooters meetings lately if the rifle clear and good to go and yoou want to have somebody take it to the unload table ok. But if there is anything wrong with it IE: lever closed, round on carrier leave it alone to show the shooter. And if your opening it and not giving the shooter the MSV, then its cheating. BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 If I understand Snakebite correctly: The shooter is responsible for controlling firearm direction safely down range - No Matter What happens. So if the shooter's progress is impeded by the TO, such as physical contact with the TO - the shooter get a reshoot - But if the 170 is broken in the process of the physical contact - the shooter receives a SDQ. And the TO has no discretion to accept the responsibility for the physical contact and wave the SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Say what? If physical contact with the TO is his fault and causes me to break the 170,I will accept the SDQ. But it will be after the protest. Which is why I always carry a $50 bill. If the protest committee rules that I am SDQed for something that was not my fault, I had no control over and should not have been upheld then it will be time for me to go to lunch or supper. I will be too sour and biting my tongue too hard to keep shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Ok You win, you can base your safety on ASSUME.... Dude - he's correct. Otherwise it would of been a badly layed out stage...and would not of found its way into a Regional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 It is sometimes very difficult to make calls from the descriptions given on the wire. Assumptions are made and can easily be wrong ... I would just comment about a few things that seem to be constant. First off... if the rifle was put down with the lever closed... or if the lever closed when it was put down on the table (not scabbard), then it was subject to a 10 MSV if it was not corrected before the next gun was shot. Next... even though the 10 MSV was already earned, the shooter would be required to correct it before moving in front of the muzzle UNLESS THE STAGE WAS DESIGNED TO HANDLE THAT MOVEMENT (sounds like the stage was designed for such movement) Finally... if the shooter broke the 170 FOR ANY REASON... then he/she was wrong, and should receive a SDQ if empty, or MDQ if loaded. The shooter is ALWAYS responsible for gun control. The rest is very unclear.... why was EVERYONE yelling at the shooter after the fact? We know that only the T.O. should be coaching the shooter, and we know that the Spotters can also coach for safety issues, but what was all the yelling for? If the rifle had been staged in a safe position for the shooter to move down range, and the next guns had already been fired, then I see no reason for ANYONE to be yelling at the shooter. Of course... if that yelling was done by an R.O. (T.O. or Spotters), then the shooter would be within his/her right to request a re-start, and I would expect the T.O. to grant it. The shooter would carry over the 10 sec MSV. However, in the given situation, when the yelling distraction caused the shooter to lose concentration and break the 170, everything else became moot. The posse did not do the shooter any favor with all their yelling.... When I shoot, I expect instructions to come from the T.O., and with my poor hearing, excess noise from the posse just confuses the issue. T.O. and Spotters should not get involved in Cheer Leading... they should pay attention to the job, and do it. One further comment about retrieving guns from the stage. Sometimes posses are ask to expedite things by retrieving re-staged long guns... Before picking up the gun, look to see if there is going to be a safety call on the gun.... e.g. a round on the carrier, a hull left in the gun, lever open, etc. If the shooter is going to receive a 10 sec MSV for such a reason, I believe that he/she has the right to see it himself. Snakebite Out the door to WR... see ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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