Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jack Houston # 35508

What's the call?

Recommended Posts

OK, This is a Regional Match.

Shooter starts out with back to stage, ATB turn and retrive rifle. He shoots string, puts rifle back on Horse prop, lever closes. Draws and completes pistol string. The shotgun is about 20 feet away downrange at a 45 degree angle. As shooter takes a couple steps towards shotgun he hears Everybody including the RO screaming something! He stops to find out WTH is going on and RO tells him your lever is closed" He starts to turn to go back and realizes it's too damn late to fix it and goes to shotgun and finishes the stage. When he was going to the shotgun and everyone was hollerin' he hasn't holstered the second pistol yet, when he started to turn someone said he sweeped the table. He got a SDQ ! Since fixing the closed lever was not possible after the next gun had already been shot shouldn't he have not been told to fix it and then just get the MS added to time. Is this a reshoot option? Isn't that RO Interference??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, This is a Regional Match.

Shooter starts out with back to stage, ATB turn and retrive rifle. He shoots string, puts rifle back on Horse prop, lever closes. Draws and completes pistol string.

As soon as he fired the first shot from the first pistol, he's got the MSV for the closed lever.

 

The shotgun is about 20 feet away downrange at a 45 degree angle. As shooter takes a couple steps towards shotgun he hears Everybody including the RO screaming something! He stops to find out WTH is going on and RO tells him your lever is closed"

He starts to turn to go back and realizes it's too damn late to fix it and goes to shotgun and finishes the stage.

THAT is IMproper coaching (too late to do anything)...RO impeded the shooter's progress = RESHOOT.

(at that point in the stage)

 

When he was going to the shotgun and everyone was hollerin' he hasn't holstered the second pistol yet, when he started to turn someone said he sweeped the table. He got a SDQ ! Since fixing the closed lever was not possible after the next gun had already been shot shouldn't he have not been told to fix it and then just get the MS added to time. Is this a reshoot option? Isn't that RO Interference??

YES...up to the point that he committed an SDQ infraction...since he broke the 170º rule during the process, he gets the SDQ...no reshoot.

Muzzle control must be maintained at ALL times.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, This is a Regional Match.

Shooter starts out with back to stage, ATB turn and retrive rifle. He shoots string, puts rifle back on Horse prop, lever closes. Draws and completes pistol string. The shotgun is about 20 feet away downrange at a 45 degree angle. As shooter takes a couple steps towards shotgun he hears Everybody including the RO screaming something! He stops to find out WTH is going on and RO tells him your lever is closed" He starts to turn to go back and realizes it's too damn late to fix it and goes to shotgun and finishes the stage. When he was going to the shotgun and everyone was hollerin' he hasn't holstered the second pistol yet, when he started to turn someone said he sweeped the table. He got a SDQ ! Since fixing the closed lever was not possible after the next gun had already been shot shouldn't he have not been told to fix it and then just get the MS added to time. Is this a reshoot option? Isn't that RO Interference??

 

Since you didn't indicate that the shooter broke the 170 with his revolver, I am going to assume that he did not.

You did not indicate where the table was that he swept. If it was downrange with his shotgun staged on it then there is no penalty for sweeping the table!

 

Reshoot....? YUP! Improper coaching.

 

But I don't understand why the SDQ with the way you explained the scenario. Since he should get a reshoot the MSV for the closed action will carry over and be added to his reshoot time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you didn't indicate that the shooter broke the 170 with his revolver, I am going to assume that he did not.

You did not indicate where the table was that he swept. If it was downrange with his shotgun staged on it then there is no penalty for sweeping the table!

 

Reshoot....? YUP! Improper coaching.

 

But I don't understand why the SDQ with the way you explained the scenario.

 

The way I understood it (without additional details)...the SDQ was called for sweeping either the LT or ULT (which usually involves a 170º violation)...otherwise, why would an SDQ even be considered?

If that is NOT the case, I'll make the necessary corrections in that response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that is NOT the case, I'll make the necessary corrections in that response.[/i][/color]

 

PW...Do you EVER sleep? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shooter has until the "next string" (first shot) to correct the closed lever. MSV. RO impeded his progress, (shoulda kept quiet?) So shooter is entitled to a reshoot but the safety still carries over. Then to top things off (like the wheels comin off the wagon and it tips over the cliff into the ravine, bursting into Hollywood flames halfway down) shooter sweeps someone. PRESTO! SDQ so no point in a reshoot.

 

 

OK, This is a Regional Match.

Shooter starts out with back to stage, ATB turn and retrive rifle. He shoots string, puts rifle back on Horse prop, lever closes. Draws and completes pistol string. The shotgun is about 20 feet away downrange at a 45 degree angle. As shooter takes a couple steps towards shotgun he hears Everybody including the RO screaming something! He stops to find out WTH is going on and RO tells him your lever is closed" He starts to turn to go back and realizes it's too damn late to fix it and goes to shotgun and finishes the stage. When he was going to the shotgun and everyone was hollerin' he hasn't holstered the second pistol yet, when he started to turn someone said he sweeped the table. He got a SDQ ! Since fixing the closed lever was not possible after the next gun had already been shot shouldn't he have not been told to fix it and then just get the MS added to time. Is this a reshoot option? Isn't that RO Interference??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I understood it (without additional details)...the SDQ was called for sweeping either the LT or ULT (which usually involves a 170º violation)...otherwise, why would an SDQ even be considered?

If that is NOT the case, I'll make the necessary corrections in that response.

 

 

Ha! It is more fun to reply to the original post THEN read the responses, especially when I find out I got it right! Was wondering about that meself, PW! :blush:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Palewolf;

 

I understand your logic. That was my thought, as well, when I read the first post.

 

But I have been thinking about it for a little while.

 

 

If the TO had tripped the shooter while the shooter was moving with pistol drawn safely pointed down range and the shooter then broke the 170, would the shooter still receive a SDQ?

 

Your answer would imply the shooter would still receive the SDQ, as it is the shooter's responsibility to control muzzle direction.

 

 

 

If NOT, what is the difference between yelling at the shooter, distracting him/her, with incorrect instructions and tripping the shooter? Would seem the TO caused the infraction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Palewolf;

 

I understand your logic. That was my thought, as well, when I read the first post.

 

But I have been thinking about it for a little while.

 

 

If the TO had tripped the shooter while the shooter was moving with pistol drawn safely pointed down range and the shooter then broke the 170, would the shooter still receive a SDQ?

 

Your answer would imply the shooter would still receive the SDQ, as it is the shooter's responsibility to control muzzle direction.

 

 

 

If NOT, what is the difference between yelling at the shooter, distracting him/her, with incorrect instructions and tripping the shooter? Would seem the TO caused the infraction.

 

 

My take is one physically impedes the shooter and isn’t solely his fault….the RO should be invisible unless needed. Yelling anything at a shooter shouldn’t be enough to rattle them to the point they forget safe handling of a weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what is the difference between yelling at the shooter, distracting him/her, with incorrect instructions and tripping the shooter? Would seem the TO caused the infraction.

 

Improper coaching does not relieve the shooter from performing the stage safely. Including maintaining muzzle control. If the shooter had wasted time going back to the rifle after having already shot the revolver(s), I would consider THAT to be extra action that he was requested to do by the range officers (RO or spotters) to be interference. But, he didn't pay attention to that, accepted the MSV, and the range officers might as well stop yelling about it. Nope, no RO interference in this case. Shooter earned the SDQ.

 

when he started to turn someone said he sweeped the (Unloading) table

 

OP makes this sound like the RO did not call the SDQ until prompted by some other pard's outcry.

 

If the infraction was observed by a spotter or by the RO, and the RO agrees that the call is justified upon what part of the action that he observed (but did not call), then it is appropriate for the RO to make the SDQ call. If the infraction was mentioned by someone other than the range officers (RO and spotters), it is solely the decision of the RO if that infraction occurred and the penalty was earned. Be careful you KNOW that the infraction occurred before you assess a severe penalty like SDQ.

 

Wheels can come off the RO's wagon, just like the shooter's. The RO has to work at staying calm, staying 100% focused on the shooter, and continue to assist the shooter safely through the stage.

 

Good luck , GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I were the TO I would have stopped the shooter also, He had just walked down range ( expected me to follow?) of a closed, cocked and possibly loaded rifle. It's not something I would be comfortable doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everybody including the RO screaming something!

Whats the call??.......Bummer!! Another good reason for everyone to take the RO I coures, even if you never plan to run the timer. Being able to spot hits and misses isn't enough, there are other responsibilities to being a good spotter. The only ones that should be assisting (screaming at) the shooter is the RO, and when needed the three spotters, everyone else should keep quite. Once the next firearm is fired it's too late, let the shooter finish the stage.

 

RO I page 9

8. Spotters

B)Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body.

RO I page 18

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.

 

Jefro :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay I've read the responses and I have a couple of questions

 

Shooter returned the rifle to horse prop and I quote "lever closes" To me this indicates a scabbard is probably being used and more importantly that the rifle lever was open, otherwise the description would say "lever closed" Shouldn't this be a prop failure/nocall-at this point in time?

 

If the shotgun was downrange at a 45 degree angle- is the shooter moving in front of the muzzle? If so I can see the justification for the TO stopping the stage to check that the rifle is in fact clear (sort of like a revolver questioned for a squib) If the TO is wrong, shooter gets a reshoot-if right . . . stage DQ?

 

Finally, while we are all safety officers-is it really acceptable for "someone" to call a 170 violation? Isn't this limited to the TO and the spotters?

 

If it seems I am stirring the pot or lawyering over the details, I apologize, but the details are important and I want each of us to have a good understanding of the ruling in this scenario and the basis therefore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I were the TO I would have stopped the shooter also, He had just walked down range ( expected me to follow?) of a closed, cocked and possibly loaded rifle. It's not something I would be comfortable doing.

 

Lots of stages have you move down range of a restaged long gun. If the stage/props doesn't facilitate a means to restage it pointed into the side berm or otherwise not down range (vertical) that's an entirely different matter... and needs to be addressed before the first shooter ever engages the scenario.

 

If, despite proper props & stage design, the gun is restaged pointed down range, then I agree with you. But the TO should have the shooter correct that as soon as the gun is restaged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stump Agreed. I don't mind going down range of a safely staged and open actioned rifle, nothing in the original post mentions the direction the gun was pointed and that does make a difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You say when rifle was put back on horse Prop lever closed,if it is a poor prop design and it closed the lever he is home free (just for the Rifle)!!!! V.D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shooter is responsible for the safe handling of firearms. End of line.

 

It does not matter what the RO said. It does not matter how the stage is designed. It does not matter if the earth reaches up and smacks the shooter in the face. The shooter remains responsible to safely manage any firearms in his posession. No excuses.

 

One other thing. If it is AT ALL unsafe for a rifle action to be closed, then the RO should be able to direct the shooter AT ANY point in the stage to correct the unsafe situation. Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety.

 

Cheers,

BJT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shooter is responsible for the safe handling of firearms. End of line.

 

It does not matter what the RO said. It does not matter how the stage is designed. It does not matter if the earth reaches up and smacks the shooter in the face. The shooter remains responsible to safely manage any firearms in his posession. No excuses.

 

One other thing. If it is AT ALL unsafe for a rifle action to be closed, then the RO should be able to direct the shooter AT ANY point in the stage to correct the unsafe situation. Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

BJT:

Put a Gold Star by your name on todays Home Room board.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing. If it is AT ALL unsafe for a rifle action to be closed, then the RO should be able to direct the shooter AT ANY point in the stage to correct the unsafe situation. Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

excellent point!

 

 

..........Widder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing. If it is AT ALL unsafe for a rifle action to be closed, then the RO should be able to direct the shooter AT ANY point in the stage to correct the unsafe situation. Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

If a TO calls me back to open a lever on an empty gun AFTER I have earned the safety penalty - I will be requesting a reshoot.

A 10 second MSV is penalty enough without an extra 5 - 10 seconds of communicating the issue and returning to the horse to correct it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker How do we know for sure that it's empty if the action is closed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker How do we know for sure that it's empty if the action is closed?

 

 

Fair question - I loaded 10 - I fired 10.

And if by some chance, I only fired 9, then the penalty will be more severe than a MSV - I will accept that penalty as well, if applicable.

But since unhandled firearms don't go bang on their own - and since we are not running in front of the muzzle, we can wait until the stage is over to determine and assign penalties.

 

If during the stage - You require that the action be opened - I will be happy to return to the rifle and open it for you.

Just be prepared for me to request a reshoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker How do we know for sure that it's empty if the action is closed?

Doesn't matter if it's pointed in a safe direction, there is already a penalty for that, 10sec MSV. If after the stage is over and a live round is found, there is a penalty for that also, SDQ.

 

Jefro :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shooter is responsible for the safe handling of firearms. End of line.

 

It does not matter what the RO said. It does not matter how the stage is designed. It does not matter if the earth reaches up and smacks the shooter in the face. The shooter remains responsible to safely manage any firearms in his posession. No excuses.

 

One other thing. If it is AT ALL unsafe for a rifle action to be closed, then the RO should be able to direct the shooter AT ANY point in the stage to correct the unsafe situation. Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety.

 

Cheers,

BJT

BJT:

Put a Gold Star by your name on todays Home Room board.

 

Snakebite

If a TO calls me back to open a lever on an empty gun AFTER I have earned the safety penalty - I will be requesting a reshoot.

A 10 second MSV is penalty enough without an extra 5 - 10 seconds of communicating the issue and returning to the horse to correct it.

It appears that the President of the RO Committee would not agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once the MSV is earned for the open rifle, no stopping of the shooter is required. If as RO you feel uncomfortable about going downrange of the closed rifle, simply snag the lever open, or pick the rifle up and hand it off. The further trouble the shooter got into (which he earned by forgetting his muzzle control) would not have happened had the TO had presence of mind to realize no yelling was needed, nd simply let the shooter go forward and picked up the rifle, opened the lever, and handed the rifle off to a spotter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing in the original post said that the rifle was or was not pointed in a safe direction, remember you are walking down range to shoot the shotgun next. and nobody said the rifle was unloaded or loaded, i've seen people load 11. I say safety first, last and always, does anyone disagree?

 

Adirondak so the shooter is in front of you headed down range and you are going to reach over and mess with his rifle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If during the stage - You require that the action be opened - I will be happy to return to the rifle and open it for you.

Just be prepared for me to request a reshoot.

 

you can request it, but you aint a gonna get it. i will not follow you down range in an unsafe situation which means youre gonna get no time or more time to make it safe.

 

what BJT said "Just because a penalty is earned does not mean a shooter loses the obligation to safety."

CC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears that the President of the RO Committee would not agree.

 

He may not agree. But with all due respect.

The penalty for the infraction is clearly listed - a 10 second MSV.

NOT a 10 second MSV + whatever time is required to return to the firearm, correct the issue and then return to the stage scenario proper sequence.

 

If the infraction goes un noticed/ uncorrected until the stage end - the penalty is 10 seconds.

If you yell at the shooter, but the shooter says "I didn't hear you - I was concentrating on the stage" - the penalty will still only be 10 seconds.

 

When you choose to change the penalty - i.e. adding time by requesting action that is not required - you place shooters into an unenviable position.

Do I correct the infraction, even tho I have already earned the penalty and correcting it is simply hurting my match even more?

Or do I ignore the TO - complete my stage and claim ignorance?

 

Either the infraction is correctible or it is not. If it is correctible - then there should not be a penalty.

If it is not correctible - then you can not require correcting it - assign the due penalty.

And since by our current rules - the penalty is earned as soon as the next round is fired - the infraction is not correctible. Assign the penalty and move on.

Attempting to apply both the time penalty and time required to correct, creates a double jeopardy situation that will not be uniformly applied or adhered to by shooters or TO's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might as well jump in here...

 

From the description the stage was at "Anvil Al's Blacksmitth shop" at Comin at Cha. I could be wrong.

 

In that stage, my posse marshall made it very clear how the rifle was to be restaged and gave a warning about the lever closing as it can sometimes be a problem.

 

The shooting position for the shotgun is down range at a 45 degree angle from the line (direction of muzzle) of where the rifle is restaged, as long as the rifle was restaged in the correct place (no matter the lever open or closed) there is no way it would cover the shooter either moving to, or at the position to shoot the shotgun.

 

I remember that stage well, I moved to the table with the shotgun, picked up up, loaded two, went to close it and it fell apart on me.

 

BOTTOM LINE - Muzzle control is the shooter's responsibility. And even if the shooter had tripped on a tree root or door frame or he was distracted by naked skydivers or whatever and swept past the 170, they still get the DQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Creeker, you are absolutely right. If what you describe happens here (I'm the MD) you WILL get a reshoot with the MSV carrying forward. Now, if you sweep someone, I can't help you with that. It really doesn't matter who you are, the rules are the rules, what we would like them to be is a different issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Shooter earned a MSV soon as he fired the next round after restaging, No question. The RO made a mistake in triing to have him correct it. But the Shooter earned a SDQ if he swept people at any point, and no matter what coaching he received. muzzle direction is always shooters responsiblity. This is the same as if shooter was in wrong shooting position and RO tells you to move not relizing you have already cocked the gun. You better not move or your getting a DQ.

BT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might as well jump in here...

 

From the description the stage was at "Anvil Al's Blacksmitth shop" at Comin at Cha. I could be wrong.

 

In that stage, my posse marshall made it very clear how the rifle was to be restaged and gave a warning about the lever closing as it can sometimes be a problem.

 

The shooting position for the shotgun is down range at a 45 degree angle from the line (direction of muzzle) of where the rifle is restaged, as long as the rifle was restaged in the correct place (no matter the lever open or closed) there is no way it would cover the shooter either moving to, or at the position to shoot the shotgun.

 

I remember that stage well, I moved to the table with the shotgun, picked up up, loaded two, went to close it and it fell apart on me.

 

BOTTOM LINE - Muzzle control is the shooter's responsibility. And even if the shooter had tripped on a tree root or door frame or he was distracted by naked skydivers or whatever and swept past the 170, they still get the DQ.

 

Grizzly Dave; After looking over your post, and considering what you have said... I have come to this conclusion. You need to work on that shotgun.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or at least check the screws that hold the forearm lever to the stock now and then. They were loose and give it enough play to come apart on me. I was so flustered I just took the 4 misses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

Okay, leaving the action closed earns you a MSV. This implies that it is unsafe to be closed, expecially when moving downrange. So, wouldn't it be advisable to make the gun safe?

 

I ask this as it looked like Snakebite was implying that in some situations, making the gun safe is advisable regardless of the point at which the penalty was earned.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once the MSV is earned for the open rifle, no stopping of the shooter is required. If as RO you feel uncomfortable about going downrange of the closed rifle, simply snag the lever open, or pick the rifle up and hand it off. The further trouble the shooter got into (which he earned by forgetting his muzzle control) would not have happened had the TO had presence of mind to realize no yelling was needed, nd simply let the shooter go forward and picked up the rifle, opened the lever, and handed the rifle off to a spotter.

 

Hi Jack,

 

Oh Dear, what if the shooter had a squib and didn't realize it while the TO was dealing with the rifle.

 

Just asking... :ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.