ElMachoGrande Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I bought some cast performance bullets and I am loading them in new Winchester brass. The bullets are .380 diameter. Anyway, I made a test round and the brass seems bulged out where the bullet is seated and it will not chamber. The bolt won't close the last 1/4 inch. The gun is an original 1894 winchester, I can't remember what year it was made but let's say before 1920. The gun is a real good shooter and very accurate out to 300 yds with copper jacketed ammo. I would like to shoot it in long range side matches and Cody Dixon. Perhaps I need bullets sized to .375??? Or I could resize these... Problem is I don't have a sizer and don't want to spend the money on one. Also, I'm still not sure they would chamber with .375 because the brass seems kind of thick. Any suggestions?? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I bought some cast performance bullets and I am loading them in new Winchester brass. The bullets are .380 diameter. Anyway, I made a test round and the brass seems bulged out where the bullet is seated and it will not chamber. The bolt won't close the last 1/4 inch. The gun is an original 1894 winchester, I can't remember what year it was made but let's say before 1920. The gun is a real good shooter and very accurate out to 300 yds with copper jacketed ammo. I would like to shoot it in long range side matches and Cody Dixon. Perhaps I need bullets sized to .375??? Or I could resize these... Problem is I don't have a sizer and don't want to spend the money on one. Also, I'm still not sure they would chamber with .375 because the brass seems kind of thick. Any suggestions?? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 If you are using modern dies for the 38-55 you probably have a .375 or .376 expansion die. Get an "M" die, that is .380 or .381. You are not opening the neck of the brass up enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Slug bore to determine groove diameter. Proper bullet will be I-2 thou over. Buy correct length starline brass that is thinner necked than Win. You may want to buy a larger expaneder button when said and done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtwater Doc 17941 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You probably bulged the case at the base during the crimping step. Use the resizing die with the depriming pin removed and do a full length resize of the loaded cartridges. Use some lube to help this...spray liquid case lube onto a folded paper towel and roll the cartridges to just barely "wet" them. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 What Doc said above is certainly something to look into. Its amazing that just .001 can make the difference in chambering or not. Regardless you need to slug that bore as even old Winchesters vary. To reiterate, it is often not possible to chamber a .379 or larger bullet when using the too thick and incorrect length new Win brass which is really .375 Win brass in sheeps clothing. Slug it and let the bullet diameter determine the expander size you need. So far as crimping in a levergun, I prefer the Lee Factory Crimp die. In single shots I don't crimp at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUNICA KID,SASS #68454 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Have loaded 38-55 an have seen bulge. The win. brass like most 38-55 is quite thin Im in total agreement with correct dia. projectile for accuarcy reasons if you have chambered that far ir may be a c.o.l. issue easy to check. Look for rifling marks on lead, an try seating bullet deeper (within reason). The bigger the expander the more you wil see bulge. The projectile should not be in rifling when chambered so unless c.o.l. is to long it shouldnt matter on closing (last 1/4") as far as dia. Hope thats helpfu. NK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Article from Sept 2008 on loading bottle neck and long rifle cartridges. Possible solution. Cartridges not chambering completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElMachoGrande Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Article from Sept 2008 on loading bottle neck and long rifle cartridges. Possible solution. Cartridges not chambering completely. The bulge I'm getting is where the base of the bullet is. It is like the bullet is bigger than the inside diameter of the sized case. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow and I'll try some tinkering. My COL is spot on so I know that is not it. It's as if the case neck thickness is way too thick. I wonder if it is because if the brass is basically .375 win which I know is thicker at the case mouth? Thanks for all the replies, all good advice. I've tried most of those suggestions and will try the rest. I'll let you know more tomorrow. Maybe I need the larger expander. El Macho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Older rifles usually had a groove diameter of .375-376. Some of the new ones have .380 and here's where it gets interesting. Marlins and H&R especially tend to have this problem. The chamber is cut with the "old" reamer, and any bullet bigger than .377 either chambers tightly or won't chamber. There are several options but first you need to know what the groove diameter of your bore is. You can get the chamber reamed to the bigger dimension BUT, don't do this of the groove diameter of your bore is .375-76. This is the correct method for fixing Marlins and H&R's with small chambers and big bores. Use thinner brass. Starline is one. Use the correct bullet for your rifle. Older rifles have smaller bores, 379-380 is too big plain and simple. A different expander isn't going to fix your problem. You are using a bullet that is too big for your rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'd slug the bbl first and find out what diameter bullet you should be loading then get a die set with the proper expander plug. IIRC the RCBS cowboy dies for the 38-55 come with two different expanders, one each for "oversize" cast bullets and one for jacketed bullets that were also suitable for the 375Winchester. Sounds like you are loading the 375Win/38-55 jacketed bullets now and I'd bet you are crimping them in the cannelure. According to Lyman bore sizes on the cartridge ran from .375 to .382 so theres a fair amount of room to work with there. Once you get the bore diameter sussed out, say you need .377 not.380 you can resize them but two things can happen. Sizing that much can change not only the bullet profile but also the structure of the slug by working it. May harm accuracy, may not, UMMV. I have tried to iron out bulges as described in other cases and will advise have never had any luck with resulting rounds. Brass is harder then lead, its going to reform the pi** out of the bullet when you do it so I wouldnt count on MOA accuracy from them. OAL is going to make a difference, and Nunica makes a good point, if the bullet is heavily engraved by the rifling your OAL is too long BUT that is specific to the rifle as well. Lots of BPCR shooters of single shot rifles will set OAL so the bullet just kisses the lands/grooves for max accuracy and cutting down bullet to bore jump. I've never owned a repeating lever rifle, Marlin or Winchester, that would allow for this type of OAL as doing so made them too long to feed anyway but one at a time through the loading port. Same holds true for semi rifles and even bolt guns when loaded to the long end of the scale. For the single shots a starting point has been to use a comparator tool with the specific bullet and start about 5/1000ths back then move forward, or back, depending on bullet profile. Remember if OAL is one of the problems and you get that round thats way over length to chamber you are going to jack up pressure which could be real bad. 38-55s are neat guns, have had both a Marlin CB and an HR Buff Classic and had modifications made to the chamber of latter so it would take proper sized bullets. Even though its "only" about 90 years old I'd modify the ammunition rather then doing anything to the gun. I'd guess once yo uget the cast bullets dialed in your accuracy with them will be as good as jacketed bullets. Shoot proper sized bullets of the correct weight/profile for the bbl and you will probably be very happy with the gun. Then you can buy a single shot in the same caliber and start the entire process again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunrunner joe #17093 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have ran in to the same problem . I ma now using .377 bullet the bbl is .375 to make life eraser used the Redding profile crimo 38-55 winchester die [86365] turner the die down 1/4 turner down till the round fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Howdy, You said you have used jacketed bullets what was the bullet diameter? find out and then find a bullet that is .001 smaller for lead exspansion also measure overall length on the ammo you have used and works. KK I'd slug the bbl first and find out what diameter bullet you should be loading then get a die set with the proper expander plug. IIRC the RCBS cowboy dies for the 38-55 come with two different expanders, one each for "oversize" cast bullets and one for jacketed bullets that were also suitable for the 375Winchester. Sounds like you are loading the 375Win/38-55 jacketed bullets now and I'd bet you are crimping them in the cannelure. According to Lyman bore sizes on the cartridge ran from .375 to .382 so theres a fair amount of room to work with there. Once you get the bore diameter sussed out, say you need .377 not.380 you can resize them but two things can happen. Sizing that much can change not only the bullet profile but also the structure of the slug by working it. May harm accuracy, may not, UMMV. I have tried to iron out bulges as described in other cases and will advise have never had any luck with resulting rounds. Brass is harder then lead, its going to reform the pi** out of the bullet when you do it so I wouldnt count on MOA accuracy from them. OAL is going to make a difference, and Nunica makes a good point, if the bullet is heavily engraved by the rifling your OAL is too long BUT that is specific to the rifle as well. Lots of BPCR shooters of single shot rifles will set OAL so the bullet just kisses the lands/grooves for max accuracy and cutting down bullet to bore jump. I've never owned a repeating lever rifle, Marlin or Winchester, that would allow for this type of OAL as doing so made them too long to feed anyway but one at a time through the loading port. Same holds true for semi rifles and even bolt guns when loaded to the long end of the scale. For the single shots a starting point has been to use a comparator tool with the specific bullet and start about 5/1000ths back then move forward, or back, depending on bullet profile. Remember if OAL is one of the problems and you get that round thats way over length to chamber you are going to jack up pressure which could be real bad. 38-55s are neat guns, have had both a Marlin CB and an HR Buff Classic and had modifications made to the chamber of latter so it would take proper sized bullets. Even though its "only" about 90 years old I'd modify the ammunition rather then doing anything to the gun. I'd guess once yo uget the cast bullets dialed in your accuracy with them will be as good as jacketed bullets. Shoot proper sized bullets of the correct weight/profile for the bbl and you will probably be very happy with the gun. Then you can buy a single shot in the same caliber and start the entire process again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have that same rifle... it is one of the most accurate guns that I have! .380 is TOO big for it .375/.376 is going to be more likely... get a pure lead ball from one of your mates and gently tap it down the bore.... then use your calipers to measure it. You can buy an inexpensive Lee Sizer that you can use on most presses. That won't cost you much. You are going to get too much pressure with those .380 bullets, in that gun. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Rifleman, SASS # 23477 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have that same rifle... it is one of the most accurate guns that I have! .380 is TOO big for it .375/.376 is going to be more likely... get a pure lead ball from one of your mates and gently tap it down the bore.... then use your calipers to measure it. You can buy an inexpensive Lee Sizer that you can use on most presses. That won't cost you much. You are going to get too much pressure with those .380 bullets, in that gun. Snakebite Ditto what Snakebite said. Those bullets are way too big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUNICA KID,SASS #68454 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Back again. Iron pony has some very good observations as stated " bigger expander -bigger bulge" I shoot a Marlin an a1885 Hi- Wall both like different dia. bullets. Saying this is to big an that is to small is not the way to go you must slug barrel to know as same gun models maybe different in themself ( reamer cond. etc.) .Have a hard time understanding why cartridge will load all but 1/4" if bullet is way to big as it is all but chambered at that point. Double check for rifling marks in lead as big time pressure is on the way if chambered. I use cast performance gc in mine an I am familiar with bulge. Put a set of calipers on base of case for the heck of it an check case dia. Good Luck NK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Norsk Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 It sounds like you know where it is oversize, but you can take a felt marker and paint the side of the case and bullet and it will show where it is rubbing. If its touching just behind the crimp, take the full length die apart and just press the loaded round into the die to iron out the bulge then see if it will chamber. The 38-55 is a low pressure cartridge and a oversize lead bullet does not seem to be a pressure problem like it might be with a jacketed bullet. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Another thing to check is the case length. There are two different 38-55 cases - one is 2.085" and the other is 2.129". Starline carries both, at 2.080" and 2.125". You might have to do a chamber cast to see which your rifle is set up for. You didn't mention what the weight of your bullet is. According to the Lyman manual, the 335 grain bullet is for single-shot rifles only due to OAL of 2.900". The other listed loads have an OAL of 2.500" +or- .05" for lever actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 If you want to try those bullets at .377 send them to me and I will resize them as long as you pay postage. Winchester brass is someof the thinner brass out there. I have 2 38-55 guns, a Buff Classic and a rebarrelled Winchester that used to be a 30-30. The Winchester is not a problem but the Buff Classic has the usual small chamber/large bore. I get around it by using .379 bullets, thinner Winchester brass and being EXTREMELY careful when crimping. To much crimp will bulge the case just like you were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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