Smithy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 To fill out my Wild Bunch gear needs I had my name in the pot for an 1897 Norinco/Interstate 12 ga from Ables (since my local dealer did not have such an animal). Ables was to email me when they got one in. It was listed as a Cowboy shotgun and priced at $264.95 (not bad I thought). I was getting kind of antsy about the length of the wait so I looked at the other models of 97's that Able's had. They had one, part number 97W20 that said it was a Trench Gun but the picture showed No heat shield nor bayonet lug and the printed description was no help either. I called Able's and basically was read the printed description. I kept on asking questions because I did not want to spend $375.00 on a gun that would be illegal in Wild Bunch. Finally the salesman had the warehouseman go and open the box in question and low and behold, no heat shield and no bayonet lug. The box was marked as a "Western Shotgun". I was told that they use "stock" photos and that's where the mix-up started. That is a problem not only with Able's but other distributors as well. When looking at their S&W 2nd model top breaks, they described three different barrel lengths however they showed the same stock photo (8" barrel) for each. This occurred in the blued models and the nickel ones as well. The Beretta Renegade my dealer ordered for me showed a picture of a case hardened receiver (stock photo) yet the gun I am getting is all blued as indicated in the description as well. There was no indication that you could even get one with a case hardened receiver. Just a word of caution not to be mislead by the photos that accompany a gun you are about to purchase. You may not be looking at the exact model of gun that you are buying. This is especially true on GunBroker.com where a dealer will show one picture to sell 50 to 100 guns of similar description. Ables has since corrected their description of the model that I purchased to reflect more in line with a correct picture. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 That's why many of the pics say "Stock photo, may not be the actual firearm", or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Smithy, it ain't just Gunbroker. I've even noticed it in those ads we see in the CC every month. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Just one of the many reasons why I never buy a gun that I have not actually handled myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 These types of mistakes are a reason why I always check the return policy on the prospective purchase. Most have something like a 3 day, no disassembly or firing, inspection period. You HAVE to know, or have quick access to a gunsmith, who knows the gun you are wanting to buy, to make use of this. And you have to really take it seriously that, if you find a defect or model variation that you can't accept, you get it shipped back on time. Yes, you are usually out at least one shipping and insurance charge. But, that is better than having to sell or trade that unwanted model again to someone else. GunBroker is pretty serious about enforcing that the seller honor the return policy. What is better is to request additional photos from the seller if you have questions. I have avoided several deals where the GA seller would not reply to reasonable questions, like, "See the line on the forearm? Is that a crack, and has it been repaired, or is that a bit of unusual grain or perhaps a deep scratch?" And yes, I too get concerned about Classifieds sellers who state "gun like new, only used a year. No photos available, but this looks like all the other new Ubertis." Valuation on guns is HIGHLY dependent upon condition AND the exact model and finish. No one (other than a well trained and honest dealer) can adequately DESCRIBE condition in words. It usually warrants pictures. Take some, and figure out how to use one of the picture posting sites to store them so buyers can see them. "Pictures sent on request" is a really time consumer for both buyers and seller. And if you say, "there's a scratch on the forearm" in your ad, then by Jove, one or more of the pictures should SHOW that particular defect. And, no, your kid taking photos with their cell phone and posting those fuzzy, partial coverage snap shots is not adequate. Show all the parts of the gun, and from more angles than one. If you do not know, for instance, that a double shotgun buyer will want to see a snapshot of the opening lever and where it parks when action is closed, and a shot of the barrel's breech fit to the standing breech, and a shot of the open chambers to see what the extractor and any coning looks like, you perhaps don't understand the selling points of that gun very well and you should let a pro do the selling! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Just one of the many reasons why I never buy a gun that I have not actually handled myself. I've only bought one gun over the net and I sweated bullets till it got here. Fortunately everything was fine but I don't think I could handle the stress again. I stick with a local dealer now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabalero Chuck Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 When using the auction sites I always send a message to the seller ( and c.c. myself !) a question that asks if the photo provided is of THAT particular gun and NOT a stock photo. Some of sellers will obliterate a serial number on the photo if they are selling multiples of the same model gun, so as to provide a measure on anonimity to the firearm in question , other sellers will use stock (or borrowed ) photos with no compunction that you could be misled by an illustration. Always ask questions and review the TOS for "gotcha"s when dealing with exceedingly short descriptions or overly restrictive payment or shipping instructions. It is pretty easy to lose that "online purchase" savings if you are stuck with unwanted merchandise or onerous return restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Solo Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I have bought most of my cowboy guns over the net or by phone including my 92 Hartford from EMF, a Baikal coach gun from an individual, a tuned Stoeger from Long Hunter (actually Goatneck Clem when he was using Long Hunter's site,) a 97 from Cimmeron, and my new 73 from Taylors. My only "bad experience" was the Baikal. One of the previous owners had "worked" on it. It took me a while to secure the repairs. The others were from reputable dealers and I have had no problems. My point is don't be afraid to buy online from a first rate dealer. I worry about people I have never heard of especially when buying used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I bought 4 new Rugers from LongHunter (with his action work)...no big deal as they were new. I also bought a pair of lightly used Beratta Stampedes from a SASS gunsmith in Oregon and several used guns from the classifieds here. Never had a problem with them being what they were supposed to be. Bought a used shotgun (Stoeger)from another online source that was a piece of crap (eventually returned it for a refund after a lot of argument). I also have sold a number of guns here in the classifieds with never a problem. Bottom line...describe what you are selling in detail and have pictures so any potential buyer knows what they are getting. When buying I've never had a problem with the reputable, well known smiths. They all want to sell guns and do the right thing. I've seen lots of stuff on the well known auction sites that looked a little "off" to me...best word is "buyer Beware" and due dilligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Howdy Smithy, So let me get this straight the 97 you wanted was $264.00 and had heat sheild and bayonet lug? But Ables had the regular 97 for $375.00 am I correct? You know the heat sheild and bayonet lug are not required for WB. KK ote name='Smithy' timestamp='1297751410' post='2118074'] To fill out my Wild Bunch gear needs I had my name in the pot for an 1897 Norinco/Interstate 12 ga from Ables (since my local dealer did not have such an animal). Ables was to email me when they got one in. It was listed as a Cowboy shotgun and priced at $264.95 (not bad I thought). I was getting kind of antsy about the length of the wait so I looked at the other models of 97's that Able's had. They had one, part number 97W20 that said it was a Trench Gun but the picture showed No heat shield nor bayonet lug and the printed description was no help either. I called Able's and basically was read the printed description. I kept on asking questions because I did not want to spend $375.00 on a gun that would be illegal in Wild Bunch. Finally the salesman had the warehouseman go and open the box in question and low and behold, no heat shield and no bayonet lug. The box was marked as a "Western Shotgun". I was told that they use "stock" photos and that's where the mix-up started. That is a problem not only with Able's but other distributors as well. When looking at their S&W 2nd model top breaks, they described three different barrel lengths however they showed the same stock photo (8" barrel) for each. This occurred in the blued models and the nickel ones as well. The Beretta Renegade my dealer ordered for me showed a picture of a case hardened receiver (stock photo) yet the gun I am getting is all blued as indicated in the description as well. There was no indication that you could even get one with a case hardened receiver. Just a word of caution not to be mislead by the photos that accompany a gun you are about to purchase. You may not be looking at the exact model of gun that you are buying. This is especially true on GunBroker.com where a dealer will show one picture to sell 50 to 100 guns of similar description. Ables has since corrected their description of the model that I purchased to reflect more in line with a correct picture. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Bad Bob Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 When using the auction sites I always send a message to the seller ( and c.c. myself !) a question that asks if the photo provided is of THAT particular gun and NOT a stock photo. Some of sellers will obliterate a serial number on the photo if they are selling multiples of the same model gun, so as to provide a measure on anonimity to the firearm in question , other sellers will use stock (or borrowed ) photos with no compunction that you could be misled by an illustration. Always ask questions and review the TOS for "gotcha"s when dealing with exceedingly short descriptions or overly restrictive payment or shipping instructions. It is pretty easy to lose that "online purchase" savings if you are stuck with unwanted merchandise or onerous return restrictions. This is what I do too. You have to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 expand your thinking beyond guns what I have noticed, craigslist for example the photos are of when they bought it not after 2 years of use always ask, are these the actual product are they recent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORNERY OAF Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Pards, Just my personal experiance. I have purchased a couple off Budsgunshop.com and buffalo arms, they both have done nuthin but great service, super return policies and you can actually talk to the salesmen on the phone prior to purchase. And please be careful about craigslist.com, we have had several robberies/shootings from folks buying "items" for sale from bad guys posing as sellers(and buyers especially jewlery). Just be careful and use common sense. Load em hot and heavy The Ornery One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashcaldwell SASS5505 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 To fill out my Wild Bunch gear needs I had my name in the pot for an 1897 Norinco/Interstate 12 ga from Ables (since my local dealer did not have such an animal). Ables was to email me when they got one in. It was listed as a Cowboy shotgun and priced at $264.95 (not bad I thought). I was getting kind of antsy about the length of the wait so I looked at the other models of 97's that Able's had. They had one, part number 97W20 that said it was a Trench Gun but the picture showed No heat shield nor bayonet lug and the printed description was no help either. I called Able's and basically was read the printed description. I kept on asking questions because I did not want to spend $375.00 on a gun that would be illegal in Wild Bunch. Finally the salesman had the warehouseman go and open the box in question and low and behold, no heat shield and no bayonet lug. The box was marked as a "Western Shotgun". I was told that they use "stock" photos and that's where the mix-up started. That is a problem not only with Able's but other distributors as well. When looking at their S&W 2nd model top breaks, they described three different barrel lengths however they showed the same stock photo (8" barrel) for each. This occurred in the blued models and the nickel ones as well. The Beretta Renegade my dealer ordered for me showed a picture of a case hardened receiver (stock photo) yet the gun I am getting is all blued as indicated in the description as well. There was no indication that you could even get one with a case hardened receiver. Just a word of caution not to be mislead by the photos that accompany a gun you are about to purchase. You may not be looking at the exact model of gun that you are buying. This is especially true on GunBroker.com where a dealer will show one picture to sell 50 to 100 guns of similar description. Ables has since corrected their description of the model that I purchased to reflect more in line with a correct picture. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashcaldwell SASS5505 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 if you are bidding on a 97 on an auction, make sure the seller gives the condition of the bore. It's bad when a customer brings one to the shop that looks good on the outside and the bore looks like a 100 year old water pipe inside. Alot of the "nice" ones are doctored with cold blue. Prices are getting crazy on 97s and most of the nice ones are in someones gun cart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 So did ya get the one they had on hand at the $264.95 price or the $375.00 price? Seems to me they are the same gun. Just curious how the rest of the deal went Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 The $264.95 remains unavailable to date so I ended up with the 375 model which the salesman swore to me was a much more reliable gun, beefed up etc. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timber Rattler Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Sounds like you'll be enjoying wild bunch this year with all tho's new guns!! TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I'm a little suspicious of the auction sites that allow the seller to write the description. You get a lot of pigs with lipstick on them that way. This site http://www.gunrunnerauctions.com/ has all the guns at the store, and the owner inspects each gun and writes an honest appraisal of them. Sounds like you got a good deal on your '97 Smithy. Most of the ones I've seen at shows hereabouts are all running at $425 and up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 So I'm walkin down Las Vegas Blvd...get a nice little biz card with a picture on it...boy...talk about misrepresenting the end product... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I find it interesting that they are advertising virtually the exact same shotgun by the same manufacturer with two different model numbers at two different prices. Not sure what makes one more reliable. Maybe a later manufacture model that was somehow upgraded in quality. IAC website only shows one model (the 97W model number). As I am not an expert in IAC/Norinco updates and quality I can't speak to the difference, just makes me a little leary. Looks like you got a good price on the one you bought though. Let us know how it works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden A. Grudge Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 So I'm walkin down Las Vegas Blvd...get a nice little biz card with a picture on it...boy...talk about misrepresenting the end product... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Smithy, just be sure it's NOT a 93/97, as they aren't SASS-legal. Some, but not all, clubs will allow them at a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Lazarus you have me scared now. The gun is coming from Ables and here is the link for the model that I am getting. http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84614 Hopefully that one is the legal one and I'll be OK for WB with it. The other model that I first looked at is here. http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=120734 I personally can't see too much of a difference by picture or description, but then that's where the use of stock pic's and descriptions do a disfavor to the buyer and ultimately the seller. I would hope to imagine that there has to be something involved in the 100 dollar price difference and the salesman indicated that indeed there was. I'm not a 97 man so I'll be a very poor judge of that when it comes in only if it fires unassisted and continues to do so will I know that maybe I got a deal or not. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Woodie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The $264.95 remains unavailable to date so I ended up with the 375 model which the salesman swore to me was a much more reliable gun, beefed up etc. Smithy. I to just picked up my guns for WB last week after the 10 day wait here in CA...The 97 I picked up was the IAC 97W they also call it the 97 Cowboy. When my gun guy ordered it for me he said that his suppler had 198 of them in stock. I paid $430 OTD for it. One thing that pleased me about it was It will load 6 out of the box.... The serial # on it starts with B09...I have not fired it yet the first time will be at a match Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Lazarus you have me scared now. The gun is coming from Ables and here is the link for the model that I am getting. http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84614 Hopefully that one is the legal one and I'll be OK for WB with it. The other model that I first looked at is here. http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=120734 I personally can't see too much of a difference by picture or description, but then that's where the use of stock pic's and descriptions do a disfavor to the buyer and ultimately the seller. I would hope to imagine that there has to be something involved in the 100 dollar price difference and the salesman indicated that indeed there was. I'm not a 97 man so I'll be a very poor judge of that when it comes in only if it fires unassisted and continues to do so will I know that maybe I got a deal or not. Smithy. It very clearly states that pictures do not necessarily represent the actual item. Seems pretty clear, photo is worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Lazarus you have me scared now. The gun is coming from Ables and here is the link for the model that I am getting. http://www.ableammo....oducts_id=84614 Hopefully that one is the legal one and I'll be OK for WB with it. The other model that I first looked at is here. http://www.ableammo....ducts_id=120734 I personally can't see too much of a difference by picture or description, but then that's where the use of stock pic's and descriptions do a disfavor to the buyer and ultimately the seller. I would hope to imagine that there has to be something involved in the 100 dollar price difference and the salesman indicated that indeed there was. I'm not a 97 man so I'll be a very poor judge of that when it comes in only if it fires unassisted and continues to do so will I know that maybe I got a deal or not. Smithy. Smithy, I can't tell from the pictures on those sites, but all the disclaimers make the pictures kinda useless anyway. Here's a link to Coyote Cap's website. If you scroll down the page, you'll see a good picture of the 93/97 action. Note the cutaway at the top rear of the actions. This is the easiest way to identify a 93/97, as a regular 97 doesn't have that cutaway. http://www.coyotecap...93-97_wcse.html Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Howdy Smithy - did you pick it up yet, and how do you like it? Ordered one last week from my favorite local toy store, and I made sure the clerk and I both looked at the distributor's catalog. They had all three variants, and the tip-off was in the product ID. The 93/97 was listed as the 93W, the 97 as 97W, and the trench gun as 97T. From there they had different stock codes, all so far apart you'd have to work at ordering the wrong one. Picked it up Friday, and it's impressive. Good fit & finish, and nothing rattles. I had one of the first generation Chichester guns waaay back when, and they've improved immensely since then. Think I did OK for $370. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuteTheMall Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 good advice make sure the recent pic is actual product, from various angles; also applies to mail order brides I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall John Joseph Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Can't speak to the practices of Abels. I do know that prices for the "correct" 97W have risen dramatically. About a year and a half ago, Gallery of Guns was selling the 97W for $290. Now they are all gone and none in the forseeable future. IAC sells to dealers and has about 198 left. $360-380 should be a reasonable selling price plus tax, shipping, and fees. Could be that Abels price was old and they just can not/not willing to sell a 97 for $260. Dealer price is WAY more. I have an IAC 97W and it is a solid firearm. Was also told that there would be no more IAC 87 lever action shotguns. Any interested in more info on the IAC 97W can PM me. MJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Smithy; I know there are many knowledgeable shooters at the club were you are based, did you ever consider asking them instead of the faceless salesmen on the phone? Im sure the info from them would tend to be more "accurate" Many of them have probably already gone through this....Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleemee Edd, SASS No. 68719 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hey, I just got a Norinco (with the cheap stock)in a trade at a pawn shop. It didn't have the heatshield/bayonett lugg either. I "Googled" for "Heat Shield for 1897 Winchester" and found them for as low as $25 (plus shipping), and they just add on to the standard model. I haven't bought one yet, but am thinking about it...unless someone wants to GIVE me one! BTW, I stripped the finish off of the painted stock and stained it as dark as I could get it, which wasn't very dark. Still, doesn't look too bad. You can get a nicer stock for about $80 (again, Google for that), but I'm not very interested in putting out more money just now. I am going to play with this for awhile and see how it goes. Put plenty of rounds through it. I'm going to load up some .36 cal buckshot just for fun, and see how some round lead balls (.72 cal for Brown Bess) do in it. That should be F-U-N!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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