Shotgun Last

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

Didn't want to hijack another thread but one post suggested having a gun other than the shotgun last on a stage made it a poorly written stage. Now I've been fortunate to have been in several State matches and week-end matches all over and have on occassion found stages where rifle or pistol were last. I personally find if the setup allows for no interference from a neighbouring stage (seperating berms) and the stage layout allows the TO to be close for the final round to ensure the timer picks up the shot then no problem. Sure, shotgun being last is preferred BUT if it isn't do you think it's a "poorly written stage!"

Inquiring minds are askin ????

[Cypress Sun]

"Poorly written" is a fairly harsh statement. A stage where the rifle is shot last is usually not a problem with a good TO. A good TO can hold the timer where it can pick all the shots (in particular the last shot) and still not interfer with the shooter in a visual manner. If every stage ended with shotgun, it would get boring pretty boring IMO.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Colt,

 

Pistol last works okay for most folks too. I did hear some light loads lately that made me wonder though. To be safe and get that last shot, SG last is best.

 

Locally, they've been allowing shooter's choice of gun order, even allow rifle last.

 

I timed for one shooter who chose rifle last. I kept moving the timer around during his last ten shots and didn't get one shot on the timer. I handed off the timer to someone taller when he reshot and he had to reach over the shooter's shoulder to record a shot.

 

Before the days of really light (I mean those that are questionable regarding PF) loads, pistol last was okay.

 

One more thing...we had some folks who cheated. Wife was seen covering the timer's receiver when her husband shot rifle last. No one called her on it and her husband beat one of the top shooters in the country by 10 seconds on that stage.

 

So, from my experience, I'd advise to never allow rifle last.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Dirty Chris]

Didn't want to hijack another thread but one post suggested having a gun other than the shotgun last on a stage made it a poorly written stage. Now I've been fortunate to have been in several State matches and week-end matches all over and have on occassion found stages where rifle or pistol were last. I personally find if the setup allows for no interference from a neighbouring stage (seperating berms) and the stage layout allows the TO to be close for the final round to ensure the timer picks up the shot then no problem. Sure, shotgun being last is preferred BUT if it isn't do you think it's a "poorly written stage!"

Inquiring minds are askin ????

 

I haven't been around as long as some, but I've never seen a timer have a problem picking up shots from a pistol. I have seen problems with ending with the rifle. So I would avoid ending with the rifle, but other than that, I don't think there's any problem ending with pistols. ONLY ending with the shotgun kinda limits stage writing options.

[Grizzly Dave]

No.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, it is by far the best to end with either shotgun or pistol.

 

When ending with a rifle, the TO must be able to have the timer pretty far forward.

 

I've seen many props that inhibit that. And I've seen that it is very hard to time in those cases.

 

Plus, can you be sure that ALL the TO's care careful in doing that - without interfering with the shooter?

Maybe at a monthly match but even then, I wouldn't count on all shots being captured.

 

As to the cheaters, that is sad. You just have to watch them on everything - and try to make them do something less critical - and not allow them to time or spot for their favorites. And don't be afraid to report them and start razzing them.

[El Muerto Negro]

rifle shot last is a bad idea other then that I feel pistol or shotgun is fine and as far as the wife she should not have even been a spoter and no way should she have been the ro its against sass rules

Here on long Island we have a number of Husband Wife Father Son combos they just hand the job off to someone else when there up keeps it fair for everyone .

But I guess if your ok with cheating to win thats on them not the coyboy way .

 

El Muerto Negro

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Whether one likes the idea of a stage ending with a rifle it is advised against in several places in the SASS rule/handbooks.

 

page 2 Match Directors Guide;

 

 

3. Always end the shooting string with a

shotgun or revolver, so the time can relia-

bly be recorded. No main stage scenario

should ever be designed to end with a rifle.

 

RO1 manual page 8

 

H) The Timer Operator holds the timer in a manner ensuring the last shots fired in a

stage are recorded. This is especially true if the last gun being used in a stage is a

rifle, which is always considered poor course design, since rifle reports are often not

loud enough to reliably record on a timer.

 

 

There are folks that "underload" their rifle rounds so much that the timer cannot pick them up.

Thus making their rifle rounds "stealthy".

[Blackwater 53393]

I generelly shoot Frontiersman and use a 55 or an 85 gr load in my shotgun but it is the least loud gun I shoot!

 

Well trained and experienced TOs are the ticket.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

A true cheater, by nature, is not likely to reform SO for my peso, caught once goes on the record, caught twice is out the door permanent. This attitude towards cheaters will never stand up in our modern touchy, feely, do not insult someone society but it would go a long ways towards going back to a time when people acted more responsibly towards others. We are all endowed with common sence and should be able to determine, within reasonable doubt, whether an individual made a mistake or actually tried to cheat.

 

I really like the idea of open ended options, in stage writing, so would rather see the power factors go up than see the options go down, if a 'BANG' is the need. We are already fencing 'Cowboy Action Shooting' in mighty tight, as it is, and do not need to regiment it any further.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hey Hacker,

 

I know that, you know that, they know that...Wonder why folks ignore that.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

If you end on a rifle sequence, it is easy for the timer to miss a couple of shots (and you don't know which ones), unless the TO gets the timer up closer to the muzzle of the rifle and watches te timer. Most don't so it is not a fair stage to the many shooters that shot hotter or louder loads and had the last rounds counted on the timer. There are many variables but it is easy to miss rifle shots. Going back and reviewing the times recorded per shot doesn't work either as you don't know which rifle rounds were missed and it slows down the posse a bunch.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

When I write stages,I almost never have finish with rifle,that being said having every stage end with shotgun would be boring.

 

The TO really has to be on it if finishing with rifle & even then its iffy,what are the other posses doing whos running timer.

 

Not sure what I'd do if I caught someone blatantly cheating Spirit of Game for TO or ask them not to come back ?

 

 

 

AO

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

What with the scorekeeper and spotters forbidden to do those functions for a family member why is it that the "most powerful" person in a posse (at least when a cowboy is shooting) is not under the same restrictions.

 

 

I wonder if we couldn't use some sort of bell to ring or some other noise action that would be the final act of a stage that is ending with a rifle.

 

But the real question I have is why do stage designers go against the rules and guidance of SASS.

See my post #8 this thread.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As a GF, I like to end stages with pistols. It helps minimize transition times for me. I think alot of other GFer's like it also although I ain't done a survey.

 

Sometimes, even a top notch TO cannot position him/herself correctly for a rifle.

EXAMPLE: A BIG shooter has to shoot thru a small window. Atleast for his size, his torso covers most of the window opening. PLUS, he shoots BP. Timer didn't pick up any shots although the TO tried hard to manuever the timer in a good position during the rifle run. Yep, I was the TO.

 

On the subject of cheating and an unusual low stage time, I would suggest that the timer be checked out to see how many shots were picked up. NOW WAIT, before any of you tell me that is not a sure fire way, you are correct. BUT, unless you really KNOW that someone conspired to cheat, its atleast a suggestion to make. If someone beat a top shooter by 10 seconds on a stage, that person would have to normally shoot a stage in sub 10 time. And in some cases, they would a recorded time of only 5-6 seconds. That in itself should be enough evidence to ask the shooter to reshoot the stage.

 

Hey, I got me a '0' time once on a stage. I even had 2 misses on it. Got to reshoot and shot it CLEAN the next time.

 

..........Widder

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I thought the 60 PF minimum on ammo was supposed to cure the problem. Maybe a little chronographing is in order if someone's rifle still consistently sounds like a Daisy BB gun. Any gun should be able to be last. It would make things awfully boring if the shotgun always had to be shot last.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

and no way should she have been the ro its against sass rules

 

El Muerto Negro

 

Apparently this is a common misconception, but it is inaccurate. It is not against the rules for a spouse or family member to be TO to someone in the family.

 

As far as someone standing by and watching cheating without calling them on it, that is difficult for me to understand.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

LEP, what do you say to the entries in the SASS books I cited in my post # 8.

Are you saying that those entries should be ignored?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Thru-the-window props are well known to cause it to be hard to catch lightly-loaded rifle shots on a timer. TO just about has to stick her arm thru the window with the shooter to get in front of the shielding effect of the prop, something that can lead to a tangle when the shooter moves, or the shooter complaining about the timer being in their field of view.

 

Then again, buckaroos shooting .22 rifles are even worse.

 

So, it really is a good idea to keep the rifle away from being last gun on the stage. If you must, then do it on with a wide-open shooting position, and remind TO's to watch that the rifle string is registering.

 

A "good" TO will look for the last shot fired racking up on the timer. Don't always count on having a good TO.

 

Good luck, GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The reasons for the recommendation re: not ending a stage with a rifle have already been stated.

Judge Roy Bean, SASS #1, told me long ago that one of the reasons for incorporating shotguns into the game was to make certain that the timer picked up the last shot of the stage.

(Even though when I started CAS, my home club was using stopwatches).

 

FWIW - The minimum penalty for outright, unequivocal CHEATING is

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

• Two accumulated Stage Disqualifications or Two Spirit of the Game assessments.

• Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct.

...

...

• Interpersonal conflicts.

ROI p.26

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Thinking if a persons pistols are too light for the timer to pick up, maybe we can all send a donation to buy an extra .5 grains of powder so they make a big enough bang to hear. I have infantry ears and think the timer might be a bit more sensitive. Would hate for my inabilaty to hear cause a second or two extra time cause I could not tell the shooter had shot until the pistol was reholstered.

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

Shot a stage once that had the rifle last. We had to shoot through a window prop. The timmer did not pick up my rifle shots due to prop interfering. The TO decided that 20 seconds was a good time to add to my time. That was plain case of cheating and a piss poor attitude on his part. Me I just took his $#!* and never shot on a posse with him again. Also didnt go back to that range.

 

rifle shot last is a bad idea other then that I feel pistol or shotgun is fine and as far as the wife she should not have even been a spoter and no way should she have been the ro its against sass rules

Here on long Island we have a number of Husband Wife Father Son combos they just hand the job off to someone else when there up keeps it fair for everyone .

But I guess if your ok with cheating to win thats on them not the coyboy way .

 

El Muerto Negro

Assuming that some one cheats because they run a timmer for their wife or son? Wow! That is messed up.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Luckily. For the most part. We got some good stage writers around here.

 

None of them end with the rifle. And if it is shooters choice.

They always write in. Rifle may not be last.

 

 

They write a fair amount ending with pistols.

And think the the RO really needs to watch that he gets

that last shot.

I will quickly look at the timer and make sure I have it in position

and it is picking up the shots.

[El Muerto Negro]

This is from RO 1 page 9

A) Score Keepers must never record scores for a family member . Spotters

A) Must never spot for a family member . My fault about the T.O but I would think if you cant record or spot then how can you be the T.O .

As far as cheating Allie Mo said the wife was seen cheating Im sure there are plenty of family memebers that would let the score be what it is .

 

El Muerto Negro

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Out here on the High Plains shooters are sometimes so scarce that we have no option than to let family members TO, spot and scorekeep for other family members. At one club we are elated to get 6 shooters and 9 is a luxury. Shot a match there once with 4 shooters total. If the weather is bad and just me and the match director show up, we leave the steel on the trailer, shoot the bull in the club house til match time and go home and recline by the fire.

 

Alla y'all with massive turn-outs count yer blessings.

[Cowboy Junky]

As others have said IF you shoot the rifle last at some point it will not pick up a round. It may only be one out of 100 shooter’s but what stinks is when it does happen the shooter either gets robbed of a good stage and HAS to re-shoot or they might have a BAD stage and GET a re-shoot or the TO doesn’t look at the shot count and they get a better stage time than they shot.....none of which are a good thing. IMHO the chances are small but again when (or if) it happens just isn’t worth taking the risk. So, I never end a stage with the rifle that way I don’t have to worry about it or how to make it “right” if it does happen.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Just seems to me that ending with the shotgun made good sense. It's generally the loudest gun we use, so even through a prop window or doorway the mic on the timer will be able to pick it up. Plus, it's also easier to tell if it's been properly made safe - open & empty.

 

As to the other issues brought up here, I won't even spot when my outside-of-SASS friends are shooting. I want no hint of impropriety to cloud the day.

If there are cases of family members shading the results, then they've all been wading in a polluted gene pool.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Which gun is the shot timer most likely to miss a shot? The rifle. This is why the general recommenadtion is to design stages that do not have the rifle as the last firearm.

 

Can the position of the timer directly affect this? Yes. Depends on the type of timer used and the position of the timer in relation to the muzzle.

 

With ANY gun, the only way the RO can be sure he has recorded the last shot is to be LOOKING AT THE TIMER AT THAT MOMENT. I see far too many RO's that hold it out of their view, even down by their leg and only look at the timer AFTER the shooter is done.

 

Hold the timer so you can see the shooter, targets (especially important to see that last shotgun target if it falls or not so you can PROPERLY coach the shooter) AND the timer screen. Be ready to cover the microphone so it does not pick up errant shots. REMEMBER the time and call it out loudly at the end of the stage which will help YOU remember the correct time (and if you forget on the way to the scorekeeper, the shooter or a posse member probably will remind you)

[Noz]

I was at a local shoot. I finished my stage and the TO reported the time. The score keeper sang out with "that can't be right, he doesn't shoot that fast". They confered, checked the timer and it had a dying battery and had not caught the last few shots of the stage. I told her if she did that again I would stop bringing her to shoots to record scores.

[Stump Water]

Which gun is the shot timer most likely to miss a shot? The rifle. This is why the general recommenadtion is to design stages that do not have the rifle as the last firearm.

 

Can the position of the timer directly affect this? Yes. Depends on the type of timer used and the position of the timer in relation to the muzzle.

 

With ANY gun, the only way the RO can be sure he has recorded the last shot is to be LOOKING AT THE TIMER AT THAT MOMENT. I see far too many RO's that hold it out of their view, even down by their leg and only look at the timer AFTER the shooter is done.

 

That right there. As the TO it's part of your job to make sure the last shot is recorded. Doesn't matter which gun.

 

And, quite frankly, if the shooter is shooting light loads (or even not-so-light .32s) you're just as likely to miss a pistol shot as you are a rifle. Especially if you're one of the TOs that stands two paces behind the shooter and/or shuffles over to the next shooting position arriving there after the shooter is already engaging the targets.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

As a GF, I like to end stages with pistols. It helps minimize transition times for me. I think alot of other GFer's like it also although I ain't done a survey.

 

I'll be on your "unofficial" survey.

Yes, I like to end on revolvers.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Any gun should be able to be last.

 

I agree. Is it practical? Apparently not.