You Make The Call

[Cypress Sun]

Scenario is as follows....Pistols, Shotgun, Rifle.

 

Shooter shoots pistols, picks up rifle, chambers a round (figures out shotgun is supposed to be next) and shoots it in the berm. Lays rifle down with action closed on the expended round. Picks up shotgun and fires all rounds at the required targets. Pick up rifle and shoots the targets in the order that would have followed his 1st shot in the correct order. What is the call?

 

C.S.

[Grizzly Dave]

Good one.

 

I'm gonna say a P and a miss assuming he hit all the other targets.

[Dubious Don #56333]

A P for shooting the rifle out of order. Shooter could have opened the lever and ejected that round instead of firing, laid the rifle down and continued on without penalty. It would also be a miss for the bullet into the berm but he could have loaded one and that would have corrected that.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

R.O I, page 16, Number 9:

If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss.

Unfired ejected rifle rounds may be replaced.

 

Yup, a P and a miss. He cannot recover from the P since he must fire the rifle to be safe. And the miss for the one rifle miss.

 

If he had wanted to, he could have reloaded to make up for the miss. Or just continued on with the rifle, is he was in a position in wchich to engage the targets.

 

If it had not been cocked, he could have merely set it down.

[Grizzly Dave]

Marauder is quicker with the handbook than I am, was just looking that up as well and came to the same text.

 

Only I found it in the shooters handbook, page 23 #9

 

9. If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss.

Unfired ejected rifle rounds may be replaced.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

YUP a P and a miss, however he cud have ejected the round before firing it, and closed the action on an EMPTY chamber, (yes he would have gotten rid of the live round coming in, easy in a Marlin, not so much on a 73 type). he cud have then put it down and shot the shotgun, picked up rifle and reloaded the ejected round at any time before finishing with rifle.

 

Safe to leave the shooter's hands Page 17 of RO1 under Rifle billet.

 

Happy Trails

 

cheyenne

[Dubious Don #56333]

R.O I, page 16, Number 9:

 

 

Yup, a P and a miss. He cannot recover from the P since he must fire the rifle to be safe. And the miss for the one rifle miss.

 

If he had wanted to, he could have reloaded to make up for the miss. Or just continued on with the rifle, is he was in a position in wchich to engage the targets.

 

If it had not been cocked, he could have merely set it down.

 

Incorrect-o. Page 23 SHB. He can open the action to make safe without firing. It would have saved him from a P.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Thanks for the correction.

 

I waas just thinking that since it was cocked, but I believe you are correct.

[Ledge Lady, SASS #61439]

What about the expended cartridge still in the chamber?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

In the OP, the call would be a "P" + a MISS.

If the shooter had either HIT a rifle target with that first round or replaced the fired round during the rifle string, he could have negated the MISS, but NOT the Procedural.

 

IF the shooter simple ejected the chambered round, he would have had to also clear the next round from the carrier in order to close the action and DROP the hammer to restage it safely.

Opening the action; ejecting the round; and restaging it with the action open/round on the carrier would be a MSV. (same 10-second penalty as for shooting the rifle out of order)

 

8. Once a revolver is cocked, the round under the hammer must be expended in order for it to be returned to a safe condition. Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under the hammer must be expended or the action opened in order for the rifle to be returned to a safe condition.

Shotgun shells may be removed without penalty to return the firearm to a safe condition.

ROI p.16

...

11. ...

Rifle

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

Empty, action open

Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use)

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

ROI p.17

[Waimea]

Would have been better to shoot the rifle at the rifle targets and taken the P.

Assuming they shoot all the targets w/o a miss they at least knock the 5 second miss off the penalties.

 

Waimea

 

[saltbush]

Would have been better to shoot the rifle at the rifle targets and taken the P.

Assuming they shoot all the targets w/o a miss they at least knock the 5 second miss off the penalties.

 

Waimea

 

thats what i would have done

[seven, #15837]

The TO has to be careful here, one word of bad advice or direction could give the shooter a reshoot.

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

This is a very poorly written stage to end on the rifle in the first place; if the shooter is using light loads, the timer won't pick it up.

 

P and a miss.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

thats what i would have done

 

At the sound of the brain eraser (aka buzzer), what we will actually do can only be answered by it actually happening to us. Witnessing others make mistakes and reading about their mistakes helps us avoid making those same mistakes.

 

With other people's mistakes, the old "hindsight is 20/20" saying comes into play. So, if we can have hindsight here, the thing to do was not to pick up the wrong gun. That has never happened to me....except at Guns of August in 2009 when I picked up the rifle and just as I was closing it, I distinctly remember thinking "Awwwwww Sheeeeee.............!!!!!" Did I say I had only picked up the wrong gun one time? That should go down as a white lie because it's the only time I remember, but a little birdie is telling me that it's NOT the only time.

 

How many times have I had a P? Less than the number of licks taken to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop, but....

[Cypress Sun]

What about the expended cartridge still in the chamber?

 

That's what I was wondering about. I knew the shooter aqquired the P and 1 - Miss........but what about the dead round in a fully closed rifle. Is it a safety, is it a no call? Obviously the thing to do would have been to shoot the rifle and take the P, but I defer to Buck's post........that timer does strange things to the mind.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

That's what I was wondering about. I knew the shooter aqquired the P and 1 - Miss........but what about the dead round in a fully closed rifle. Is it a safety, is it a no call? Obviously the thing to do would have been to shoot the rifle and take the P, but I defer to Buck's post........that timer does strange things to the mind.

 

See Palewolf's post in Post #10.

He explains that the rifle may be restaged with a dead round, the action closed and hammer down.

 

You may move with the gun in had with the action open and around on the carrier, but you may not set it down.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

That's what I was wondering about. I knew the shooter aqquired the P and 1 - Miss........but what about the dead round in a fully closed rifle. Is it a safety, is it a no call? Obviously the thing to do would have been to shoot the rifle and take the P, but I defer to Buck's post........that timer does strange things to the mind.

 

It would be a "NO CALL"...please see the "Safe conditions..." quoted from the ROI in post #10.

Also:

 

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazines/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared or opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence, made safe and then restaged.

SHB p.23-4

[saltbush]

i have picked the the wrong gun a couple of times, but when i cock it you have to keep going.

hit the targets quick to make up the "P" 10 sec,dont miss any targets then go on as per instructions

[Griff]

PWB,

 

So... as I read your replies, it would be acceptable to eject the incorrectly chambered round, push the carrier back into the down position, close the action on an empty chamber, drop the hammer and replace the rifle at the previously staged position, and then shoot the shotgun, coming back the to rifle at the proper time, reload the ejected round... with no penalty other than the additional time?

 

By the way, this is fairly easy with the various Winchesters & clones, but not quite so with other closed top leverguns, and the Marlin, with it's carrier rising on the back stroke of the lever, nearly impossible.

 

Edited to add: reload the ejected round

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PWB,

 

So... as I read your replies, it would be acceptable to eject the incorrectly chambered round, push the carrier back into the down position, close the action on an empty chamber, drop the hammer and replace the rifle at the previously staged position, and then shoot the shotgun, coming back the to rifle at the proper time, reload the ejected round... with no penalty other than the additional time?

 

By the way, this is fairly easy with the various Winchesters & clones, but not quite so with other closed top leverguns, and the Marlin, with it's carrier rising on the back stroke of the lever, nearly impossible.

 

Edited to add: reload the ejected round

Darlin',

 

You mean "replace" the ejected round as it is dead.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Griff]

Darlin',

You mean "replace" the ejected round as it is dead.

Regards,

Allie Mo

Aye... that I did, unfortunate I didn't say that, huh?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB,

 

So... as I read your replies, it would be acceptable to eject the incorrectly chambered round, push the carrier back into the down position, close the action on an empty chamber, drop the hammer and replace the rifle at the previously staged position, and then shoot the shotgun, coming back the to rifle at the proper time, reload replace the ejected round... with no penalty other than the additional time?

 

By the way, this is fairly easy with the various Winchesters & clones, but not quite so with other closed top leverguns, and the Marlin, with it's carrier rising on the back stroke of the lever, nearly impossible.

 

Edited to add: reload replace the ejected round

 

What I posted was in response to the suggestion that the shooter simply open the action/eject the chambered round & restage it in that condition...that would result in a MSV.

The following:

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

is meant be applied if a round is chambered at the wrong firing position. (unless, of course, LOCAL CLUB/RANGE RULES prohibit movement with a round on the carrier/action open)

 

The only way to make the rifle "safe to leave the shooter's hands" would be to ensure that the hammer is down on either an empty chamber or spent round (as stated in post #10).

Cheyenne Culpepper's solution to the problem (without actually firing the round & incurring a "P") takes the second option one step further...the action is opened (ejecting the round) and THEN returned to the original staging condition (less one round).

IMO, that should be acceptable...but it is unlikely that a shooter would take the time to choose that method of making the rifle safe (given that it would have to be done under the observation of the T/O + the amount of time to do so).

Same as reloading a functioning revolver to finish the stage in event the shooter has a squib in the other.