Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Is there much difference between FFg Goex and FFg Graf & Sons? Which would you pick and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 For what? Cartridge revolvers? C&B revolvers? Long range - .38-55, .45-70, et al? Muzzleloading rifle? 10ga shotshells? Cannon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 For what? Cartridge revolvers? C&B revolvers? Long range - .38-55, .45-70, et al? Muzzleloading rifle? 10ga shotshells? Cannon? Good point. I am mostly looking at a powder for 12 gauge shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 APP FFg, alot easier cleanup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Good point. I am mostly looking at a powder for 12 gauge shells. Any will do. Some adjustments might need to be made from one to the next... but I've used the same bushing in my MEC whether Goex 2F, Cowboy, Cartridge or Kik... I prefer the cheap stuff, long as it goes boom, knocks down the targets and produces adequate smoke. Ain't seen a BP yet, that don't. (Haven't used any Graf & Sons, so can't comment. But it can't be any worse than Kik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Howdy The powder marketed by Graf is actually Schuetzen made in Germany by Wano. It is just in Graf's bottle. If you look at the small print on the bottle, you will see it is also made by Wano. In my experience, Schuetzen burns cleaner and leaves less fouling behind than Goex. This is because Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex, the same type of charcoal that the more expensive Swiss uses. They both use Buckthorne Alder charcoal and that contributes to the cleaner burning qualities of both. But with Schuetzen you get a cleaner burning powder for just about the same price as Goex. This can make a difference in keeping fouling down and keeping guns functioning longer without binding. I have completely switched over to Schuetzen FFg and don't use Goex anymore because it burns cleaner. You will have the same results with Graf's powder. APP FFg, alot easier cleanup! Nothing is easier to clean up than real Black Powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I have used just about all the Real Black Powders. Goex, Schuetzen, Dragon, Elephant, Lilu, Wano, Kik, Swiss, Dupont and what ever else I could get. For cas depending on what velocity your trying to get, my rule of thumb in the shop is FFFg for 357 mag and smaller. (FFg in 38spl and 357mag for lower velocities) FFg for large calibers cartridges and shotgun. I have used Fg in 12ga. Works well but is extremely dirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I usa APP FFg in my 12-gage shells for an original 1887. Great load with complete combustion and consistent patterns at around 1000 fps for a 7/8-ounce load. APP cleans up easily and is carried by my local Gander Mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I also like APP for cartridge loading, it voids the need for anything special with bullet lube. Shux, no lube is even recommended with APP. All other bp needs are met by Goex in mostly ff for shotgun and 44+cals and just a bit of fff for 36 and 32 c&b revolvers. Since there is no longer an ordering advantage for GOEX, since they dropped Pinacle, I will probably experiment with some different real BPs as my stores deplete. As far as cleaning behind APP and real BP, I consider it a wash BUT do use different cleaning products for the two powders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 What DJ said, Schuetzen is Graf's house brand. Burns much cleaner than Goex for the same price. Good Luck Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Agate Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Good point. I am mostly looking at a powder for 12 gauge shells. I've been using ffg Diamond Back from Powder Inc. $10.00 a pound delivered. Been through 60 lbs with out a problem. I load Pistol Caliber, Big Bore plainsman rifle, 12 and 10 gauge with it. Jasper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Nothing is easier to clean up than real Black Powder. That's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Is there much difference between FFg Goex and FFg Graf & Sons? Which would you pick and why? AFIAK, it's six of one, half dozen of the other when talking shotgun shells. I'd use whatever is cheapest at the time. ffg KIK worked real good in my shotgun shells; but, I understnad they do not make it any more. Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I prefer Graf out of all of them.. Its cleaner. For shotgun anything, but prefer to use Graf. For minuimum loads in SKB Graf works best for me (the inertia mechanism needs a certain amount of recoil). Diamondback is good for most anything. I have recently been shooting it in SKB with no hickups. KIK is good. Goex I quit using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pony racer # 39210 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I can depend on Scheutzen which is Grafs. Bought in a case amount it is about 30-50.00 cheaper than Goex. If you can pick it up you also pay no hazmat fee. Although I think Powder Inc waves that fee if you buy a case. Scheutzen/Grafs is cleaner than Goex. I have tried Diamond Back and like it and it's price but prefer scheutzen for pistol and rifle ammunition. It is a shame that an american powder company can not beat the price of an imported german powder. I have to wonder how much cheaper Scheutzen would be if we were not helping to defray the importation taxes and cost of transportation. PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuco Forsyth #72674 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I love Scheutzen, but prefer Goex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 It looks like Diamondback is going to be the least expensive - currently $275 for 25 pounds, delivered to your door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Good point. I am mostly looking at a powder for 12 gauge shells. I have used just about every brand of black available in 12 gauge shells with no appreciable difference at CAS distances and targets. For the quantities involved, I always go with what is cheapest in the shot shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Like others I have switched to Schutzen for everything and narrowed the grade selection down to 2f for all use as well. It does everything I need in shotgun, 44s and longrange. Case price from Maine Powder House was $325, shipped with hazmat fees etc included. Swiss is hotter and maybe a little cleaner but much more expensive but for my use the Schutzen is much better then the other choices including subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I use Schuetzen Ffg for my loads in my .38 Special, .45 Colt, and 12 gauge shotshells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I use Goex FFg - it's a great all-round powder from cap & ball 44 revolvers to 45 Colt to 12ga. GG ~ U*S*A flag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Hey Tab, How much are you looking for? CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taquila Tab, Sass #25048 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Rick, to answer your question I was going to just start with a pound or two to see which I like best. The reason I asked folks specifically whether they preferred Goex or Graf was because that is the only two powders the closest (50 miles away) dealer to me carries. Any other powder besides those two would be difficult for me to obtain. Sure, I could order the black diamond and have it delivered but if the minimum order is 25 lbs. that would be a 5-year or better supply for me. Plus, I really don't want to store that much powder for safety concerns. I've been using APP which I actually like how it shoots and cleans up. I like using it for my .38 rifle rounds because I don't have to use any specially lubed bullets. But for some reason, when I load that powder for shot shells there seem to be dust particles or something floating in the air which really irritate my throat to the point of I can only stand to load for about an hour. Anything more than that and I have a really bad, scratchy throat. I am shooting .36 Navies so I probably should stick with the 3F for that. I suppose I could use that powder in the shot shells too though. At least that way I wouldn't have to load two different powders. I thank everyone for their replies. Ya'll have certainly given me some things to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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