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Buck D. Law, SASS #62183

What's the rule?

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I've seen this happen a few times.

 

Stage begins with shotgun loaded (at the firing line) with two rounds and pointed at a target.

 

Shooter loads first round into the chamber of a 97, closes the action, lays the gun on the table (hammer is cocked over a live round) to load the second round. Both hands leave the gun.

 

What's the call....and based upon what rule(s)?

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Stage DQ RO I page 17

Shotgun

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

Empty, action open

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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Doesn't sound like a safe stage.

 

But to be certain here we really need the exact wording of the stage instructions.

 

OW Jefro has the call. SDQ

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Jeffro saved me the trouble of looking up the reference, that's what I was thinking as well.

 

Grizz

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I would think the RO would have stopped it before they laid the gun down.You would not allow a ttn laid down with the hammers cock and the gun loaded and closed. I could see if it was writen that gun could have shells in a TTN and cocked with it open the 97 have two loaded and it open. I guess that would work but still not a good stage set up I dont think. Just my 2 cents.

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I'm still trying to figure out why the shooter laid the gun on the table to load the second round. All you have to do is shove the second shell in the mag tube from underneath. You can do that with the gun on your shoulder or use the old Evil Roy style and put the butt stock under your arm pit while loading the second round.

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I shoot a double, but can't you load two in the tube and work the action once and be ready?

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I've seen this happen a few times.

 

Stage begins with shotgun loaded (at the firing line) with two rounds and pointed at a target.

 

Shooter loads first round into the chamber of a 97, closes the action, lays the gun on the table (hammer is cocked over a live round) to load the second round. Both hands leave the gun.

 

What's the call....and based upon what rule(s)?

 

***********************************************************************************************

Stage DQ RO I page 17

• Shotgun

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

• Empty, action open

 

Jefro :ph34r:

*********************************************************************************************

 

I'm still trying to figure out why the shooter laid the gun on the table to load the second round. All you have to do is shove the second shell in the mag tube from underneath. You can do that with the gun on your shoulder or use the old Evil Roy style and put the butt stock under your arm pit while loading the second round.

************************************************************************************************************

 

Jefro has the answer (with the rule), The Pettifogger gives the best example of "loading on the clock" that has a live round under a cocked hammer.

 

Depending on where you are "loaded" means different things. I personally have never seen that to mean "round in the chamber with hammer back". We often start a clay bird stage with two in the '97, one in the mag, one on the carrier, action open. The SXS starts with rounds in the chamber, action open.

 

What was the meaning of "loaded" on this one Buck?

 

Olen

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Stage DQ RO I page 17

Shotgun

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

Empty, action open

 

Jefro :ph34r:

 

I see that you can't do it. How did you determine the penalty?

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But to be certain here we really need the exact wording of the stage instructions.

 

Dang, I left out the word "loaded." I'll edit the OP.

 

Now, edit to edit. I DID have the word loaded in there. Now I've got to edit to take the second "loaded" out.

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I would think the RO would have stopped it before they laid the gun down.You would not allow a ttn laid down with the hammers cock and the gun loaded and closed. I could see if it was writen that gun could have shells in a TTN and cocked with it open the 97 have two loaded and it open. I guess that would work but still not a good stage set up I dont think. Just my 2 cents.

 

A point to ponder..... If the stage had been written to say: Shooter starts with shotgun at port arms and, at the buzzer, shoot, etc. When the shooter loads the first round (or two rounds) and closes the shotgun (either 97 or double), you now have a loaded and cocked gun. Would that be unsafe or just ready to shoot? The only difference in this stage is the shooter is ready to shoot.... at the sound of the buzzer.

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A point to ponder: If the stage had been written to say: Shooter starts with shotgun at port arms and at the buzzer shoot, etc. When the shooter loads the first round (or two rounds) and closes the shotgun (either 97 or double), you now have a loaded and cocked gun. Would that be unsafe or just ready to shoot. The only difference in this stage is the shooter is ready to shoot.... at the sound of the buzzer.

 

That is "in hand" ready to shoot. (Think of that Evil Roy start with the '97).

 

Olen

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I see that you can't do it. How did you determine the penalty?

 

It is under the section Stage Disqualification; "a live round left in the chamber of a long gun"

 

Olen

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I have shot several matches where the shot gun is loaded and on sholder to start. I would think the TO would stop the shooter if they started to lay the shotgun down with a live round under the hammer, but the ultimate responsability would be on the shooter. A good explination of the stage is always required by the RO for that possee.

 

Just the view from my rocking horse

 

McKenzie

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Under stage DQs is:

 

"• A live round left in the chamber of a long gun."

 

If you let a long gun leave your control with a live round in a chamber, SQD......

 

Cheers,

BJT

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I see that you can't do it. How did you determine the penalty?

Penalties page 26 Stage DQ

A live round left in the chamber of a long gun.

Unsafe firearm handling

 

Jefro :ph34r:

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I dislike this kind of start, ie shotgun loaded and closed, for different reasons, it is something the shooter is not used to doing and thus the shooter is likely to either move his feet or lay it down while loading, and I've known of ADs during this start.

 

Why do it at all, it saves no time as the TO has to warn each shooter about the pitfalls...if you want a fast stage, 2 sg, 10 pistol, 6 rifle without movement...myself, I feel super short stages throw everything out of wack...

 

Just my two cents,,,

 

Cheyenne

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What was the meaning of "loaded" on this one Buck?

 

Olen

 

Olen, I didn't see your question earlier. The stage in all cases I have seen intended for the shotgun to be loaded with two rounds ready to fire.

 

97 - One in chamber with hammer back, one in magazine, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

Hammerless double - One in each of the two chambers, gun closed, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

Hammered double - One in each of the two chambers, hammers cocked, gun closed, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

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Food for thought:

 

At the loading table there is no penalty for loading a pistol and having a live round under the hammer (Colts for example) until the gun is ready to be holstered. Even then, if it is discovered, it can be corrected without penalty. The gun can be placed on the table during the loading. Should a long gun be different? Is it?

 

 

 

 

 

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If it were me I would close the 97, lower the hammer and load both shells into the mag. No problemo. What this shooter did is a no-no. Poor stage writing IMHO.

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Food for thought:

 

At the loading table there is no penalty for loading a pistol and having a live round under the hammer (Colts for example) until the gun is ready to be holstered. Even then, if it is discovered, it can be corrected without penalty. The gun can be placed on the table during the loading. Should a long gun be different? Is it?

 

9. Loading/Unloading Table Officers

...

B) They check to make sure no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm and that all loaded firearm hammers are fully down on empty chambers. While at the Loading Table, shooters must be allowed to make corrections as necessary to be sure no round is under the firing pin and hammers are fully down on empty chambers without the assessment of a penalty.

Discharging a round at the loading table is a Match Disqualification. Leaving the Loading Table with a hammer not fully down on an empty chamber or with a round under the firing pin of any firearm is a Stage Disqualification.

ROI p.10

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Olen, I didn't see your question earlier. The stage in all cases I have seen intended for the shotgun to be loaded with two rounds ready to fire.

 

97 - One in chamber with hammer back, one in magazine, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

Hammerless double - One in each of the two chambers, gun closed, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

Hammered double - One in each of the two chambers, hammers cocked, gun closed, gun on shoulder pointing at the target.

 

OK, that can be safely accomplished with any type of shotgun we use.

 

I haven't seen that type of start in any match (in all types of gun games over 30 years) I have attended. I don't remember ever seeing an at-the-ready, cocked and locked, let alone, at-the-ready cocked and unlocked. Your guy apparently was not well enough acquainted with the gun to know how to do the drill safely. That start would take a lot of handholding at most matches.

 

Olen

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OK, that can be safely accomplished with any type of shotgun we use.

 

I haven't seen that type of start in any match (in all types of gun games over 30 years) I have attended. I don't remember ever seeing an at-the-ready, cocked and locked, let alone, at-the-ready cocked and unlocked. Your guy apparently was not well enough acquainted with the gun to know how to do the drill safely. That start would take a lot of handholding at most matches.

 

Olen

Depending on where you shoot, you see it fairly often or not at all. I have never once seen anyone have an issue with it. Most 97 shooters that normally load one, just load one, and try to not to get confused. This stage can give an edge to double shooters to make up for all those vertically staged shotgun stages they shot for so long.

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For many folks, CAS has become an entry level shooting sport where newer shooters learn how to handle weapons in a safe manner. For a local club's monthly matches, this would be a good exercise in weapons handling.

 

Every CAS shooter should be able to safely load their shotgun and put it in battery without having it leave their hands. What's wrong with a monthly match testing their ability to do so?

 

I wouldn't want to see this at an annual or higher match, though.

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I like to write this starting position once in a while,hopefully it gets folks used to doing something different,when you travel different clubs in different states folks do different things ,I think its good for folks to try different things.

 

Why in the world would someone lay the gun down to load it,this person needs to be taught how a 97 is suppost to work.

 

IMHO ,anyone shooting matches or in general should be able to handle a gun in this position,or they should get some more training.

 

 

 

 

Regards AO

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IMHO, the "confusion" Cheyenne and others refer to can result from shooters always loading the '97 one shell at a time. They may not have tried to stoke the mag (with 1 to several) shells and work'em up after the preceding shell is fired. A surprising number (to me) of old originals won't reliably feed from the mag, especially when the shooter racks the slide with a herky-jerky motion possibly resulting from under-developed muscle memory, since he's never had reason to do it.

 

When I write one of these, it's something like: "loaded with up to 2 rounds and safely held as if ready to engage targets". This or similar wording makes allowance for the local "Outlaws" to discharge their shotguns from below the line of sight without additional on-the-clock repositioning of the scattergun. "Shouldered" seems to signal to these otherwise pleasant competitors, that their category is being ignored, and causes minor violation of the old time cowboy's attitude toward whining, and sometimes encourages the occasional hillbilly, nose, bald head, or beltline joke to be levelled at this writer.

 

If this aint clear to some of my pards, I'll re-word it in hillbillionics.

 

Cherokee

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Depending on where you shoot, you see it fairly often or not at all. I have never once seen anyone have an issue with it. Most 97 shooters that normally load one, just load one, and try to not to get confused. This stage can give an edge to double shooters to make up for all those vertically staged shotgun stages they shot for so long.

 

 

How long does the 97 shooter have to give these small advantages to sxs for vertical staging of SG that has all but disappeared in todays stages? :blush:

 

I understand your point. When I started, it was a 97's world but the pendelum has definitely swung the other way now.

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Why in the world would someone lay the gun down to load it,this person needs to be taught how a 97 is suppost to work.

 

They don't know how to safely load and shoot the firearm.

 

IMHO ,anyone shooting matches or in general should be able to handle a gun in this position,or they should get some more training.

 

Agreed, but it isn't happening until match day and the situation rises up to be a concern.

 

 

 

Regards AO

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Let he who is without sin MSV, SDQ or MDQ cast the first stone. More than one world champion shooter that I'm personally aware of has MDQ'd.

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