Another YOU MAKE THE CALL

[Ace_of_Hearts]

This one is straight forward without a lot of ifs.

 

Shooter comes to the firing line with rifle cocked. (Half or safety cocked also equals cocked) No other violation of the rules are observed.

 

What's your call AND what are you referencing in the handbook to make that call?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Stage DQ

RO 1

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the

basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at

least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage

Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification.

This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

[Griff]

This one is straight forward without a lot of ifs.

Shooter comes to the firing line with rifle cocked. (Half or safety cocked also equals cocked) No other violation of the rules are observed.

What's your call AND what are you referencing in the handbook to make that call?

SDQ. pg 18 of ROI:

12. The shooter with firearm in hand shall never be allowed to move with a live round under a cocked hammer. Movement is defined the same as "traveling" in basketball. Once the firearm is cocked, one foot must remain in place on the ground until the firearm is made safe. This means, on revolvers, you may move, restage, or re-holster when the hammer is down on an empty chamber or expended case. You may move with a rifle or shotgun when the action is open, hammer(s) down on empty chamber(s) or expended case(s). If restaging the rifle, the action must be closed and hammer down either on an empty chamber or expended case. Shotguns may be restaged only if open and empty.

And from pg 19:

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball "traveling" rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification. This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

Pretty clear.

 

Creeker is obviuosly the faster cut n' paster! LOL

[Ace_of_Hearts]

SDQ. pg 18 of ROI:

 

And from pg 19:

 

Pretty clear.

 

Creeker is obviuosly the faster cut n' paster! LOL

 

 

Your reference to line 12 is not applicable in this situation since there no live round under the hammer.

 

The shooter argued that line 22 only applies when changing positions during the stage. (Not an argument that I accepted ....but it was his argument)

[BJT]

Creeker is correct. There is no requirement of a live round under the hammer and it specifically says that this applies from the loading table to the line. In SASS, the gun is loaded if there are live rounds anywhere in the gun.

 

There is a troubling aspect of this. A mule ear double, open may have the hammers cocked and live rounds in the tubes and still allow movement. These rules appear to conflict. The rule might need to say something about the action closed in the future.

 

"22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the

basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at

least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage

Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification. This includes leaving

the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm."

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Your reference to line 12 is not applicable in this situation since there no live round under the hammer.

 

The shooter argued that line 22 only applies when changing positions during the stage. (Not an argument that I accepted ....but it was his argument)

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Well Acey,

 

The best thing is to have the pocket card with you. Then you could show him the following, with the SDQ box checked.

"Changing location or leaving the designated loading area with a cocked gun/gun w/hammer down on live round"

 

A cocked gun and hammer down are two separate actions that both earn the shooter a SDQ.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

Hope I'm not missing something.

 

Following is the rule from the ROI, page 18, that applies to cocked mule ears. "Shotguns may be opened and rounds removed or replaced without penalty. It is permissible for mule-eared shotguns to be “cocked” at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hands." It does not make any exception to the safe for movement rule. It just says they may be cocked at pretty much any time. As I see it once loaded, the "Movement is not allowed with a loaded cocked firearm" applies.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Creeker is correct. There is no requirement of a live round under the hammer and it specifically says that this applies from the loading table to the line. In SASS, the gun is loaded if there are live rounds anywhere in the gun.

 

There is a troubling aspect of this. A mule ear double, open may have the hammers cocked and live rounds in the tubes and still allow movement. These rules appear to conflict. The rule might need to say something about the action closed in the future.

 

"22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the

basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at

least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage

Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification. This includes leaving

the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm."

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Fingers McGee]

Stage DQ

RO 1

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the

basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at

least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage

Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification.

This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

 

Absolutely. Don't ask me how I know

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Hello,

 

Hope I'm not missing something.

 

Following is the rule from the ROI, page 18, that applies to cocked mule ears. "Shotguns may be opened and rounds removed or replaced without penalty. It is permissible for mule-eared shotguns to be “cocked” at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hands." It does not make any exception to the safe for movement rule. It just says they may be cocked at pretty much any time. As I see it once loaded, the "Movement is not allowed with a loaded cocked firearm" applies.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

The real key is that the action be open. You can run like a madman...or mad mike...with a loaded cocked rifle or shotgun so long as the action is not closed.

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

Creeker is correct. There is no requirement of a live round under the hammer and it specifically says that this applies from the loading table to the line. In SASS, the gun is loaded if there are live rounds anywhere in the gun.

 

There is a troubling aspect of this. A mule ear double, open may have the hammers cocked and live rounds in the tubes and still allow movement. These rules appear to conflict. The rule might need to say something about the action closed in the future.

 

"22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the

basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at

least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in Stage

Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in Match Disqualification. This includes leaving

the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm."

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

There is a troubling aspect of this. A mule ear double, open may have the hammers cocked and live rounds in the tubes and still allow movement. These rules appear to conflict. The rule might need to say something about the action closed in the future

 

 

 

I never thought of this aspect before,but even hammerless shotguns are automatically cocked when the action is opened.So,wouldn't this also fall into the same conflict catagory?

[Charlie Whiskers]

Sorry about getting off of the main subject which was a rifle question.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Good one Phantom!

 

I think you are correct. Now, I'm thinking the rule is a bit weak to allow this.

 

As, not being a double shooter, running with a cocked, loaded double seems troublesome as if one falls, couldn't firing be pretty easy?

 

Asking a question here!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Madd Mike #8595]

I see that happen alot

so here is what I do at the loading table

 

I simply look at the shooters rifle in front of me

if I see the hammer in the wrong position

I simple tell them, it happens a lot

I dont do it to be snoopy

just do it as a favor

I often see screws half out (loose)t00

 

bout 1 per six to 10 stages, is the average catch

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Good one Phantom!

 

I think you are correct. Now, I'm thinking the rule is a bit weak to allow this.

 

As, not being a double shooter, running with a cocked, loaded double seems troublesome as if one falls, couldn't firing be pretty easy?

 

Asking a question here!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

I think the moving part is fine...good stage designs shouldn't seperate SG targets by 100 yards...so that folks won't be really running from one shooting position to another.

 

And yes, down range movement would be much more safe...as in Western 3 Gun.

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

 

There is a troubling aspect of this. A mule ear double, open may have the hammers cocked and live rounds in the tubes and still allow movement. These rules appear to conflict. The rule might need to say something about the action closed in the future.

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

 

BJT is right, the rule should be reworded.

Since moving with an open cocked firearm is legal...

(every internal hammered SxS is cocked when open - 97's are cocked when open - lever rifles are all cocked when open)

And since moving with a cocked loaded gun is legal...

(SxS with rounds in the chambers - 97's with rounds on carriers - Lever guns with rounds on carriers)

 

Then the penalty is actually for having the action closed AND moving under the following conditions:

Hammer cocked

Rounds in firearm.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I think the moving part is fine...good stage designs shouldn't seperate SG targets by 100 yards...so that folks won't be really running from one shooting position to another.

 

And yes, down range movement would be much more safe...as in Western 3 Gun.

 

Sorry for continuing the hijack.

 

Haven't you ever shot a stage where you shoot rifle way back, then move downrange with SG knocking down targets as they appear behind hay bales, then at the end shooting pistol? Oodles of fun!

 

Anyway, I am understanding better why T-Bone and Gang favor "plant and poke." What's fine for a '97 may not be fine for a precocked double.

 

Thanks,

 

Allie

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

The real key is that the action be open. You can run like a madman...or mad mike...with a loaded cocked rifle or shotgun so long as the action is not closed.

 

 

+1

 

a 97 is cocked in the open position as well. its the same as one on the carrier.

CC

[Cole Younger Requlator]

Movement with a SxS SG with rounds in the chambers is allowed under SASS rules. But with the action open. As soon as it is closed, basketball rule applies. The same with a round on the carrier of a 97.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

+1

 

a 97 is cocked in the open position as well. its the same as one on the carrier.

CC

Oops,

 

Thanks Charlie. Maybe it's time for more coffee.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Just another thought.

 

If I'm running with a cocked, loaded double and fall, it closing and firing is much more likely than a '97 pumping itself and firing.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Just another thought.

 

If I'm running with a cocked, loaded double and fall, it closing and firing is much more likely than a '97 pumping itself and firing.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Allie is absolutely correct.

 

This is where our shooters need to self police, if a shooter feels an action is unsafe, they should not do it.

And perhaps we should discuss trigger finger positioning/ training a little more than we do (especially in light of the above example).

[Griff]

Matters not, if rounds are chambered in a double, double w/ears or on the carrier of the '97, it only takes closing of the action AND pulling of the trigger(s) for the gun to go off.

 

Edited to add: That is if that eared double is of the type that is cocked upon opening or the hammers are back.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Yep SDQ

 

I had to call this on a Lady at the Regional this year.

It was covered very well in the Safety Meeting also.

She came up. Staged her guns. Rifle was first.

When she brought it up. We seen it.

Was not FULLY down.

Hated to call it. She came a long way.

But it was covered and it is what it is.

 

 

Had another shooter bump his rifle while staging it.

He said something. I walked over and let it back down.

A no call because he did not leave the loading table like that.

And has not moved at all.

[porcupine kid]

am I missing the boat? I have been leaving the loading table to stage my rifle at halfcock on an empty chamber for eleven years now! most of the shooters I watch,do the same. hammer all the way up or all the way down is just as dangerous. halfcock IS the safety on hammer guns,until lawyers got involved.i.e. crossbolts and tang safety. PORCUPINE KID

[Anvil Al #59168]

am I missing the boat? I have been leaving the loading table to stage my rifle at halfcock on an empty chamber for eleven years now! most of the shooters I watch,do the same. hammer all the way up or all the way down is just as dangerous. halfcock IS the safety on hammer guns,until lawyers got involved.i.e. crossbolts and tang safety. PORCUPINE KID

 

 

Yep.

SDQ

Don't matter how we see it.

That is how it is.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Back in the day we all came to the line with the rifle hammer at full cock. So it would be easier to lever for the first shot. We all knew the chambers were empty and there was NO danger.

 

That was before closet hoplophobia infested the game. Due to the level of gun handling ability or lack thereof of some folks, I guess such rules were inevitable and a necessity. Still -- I prefer the past and linger there longer and longer of late.

 

The past is a different country, they do things different there...

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

 

 

The past is a different country, they do things different there...

Yes it is, as a kid at 10 years of age I was taught and told to carry my double open, loaded, and pointed down, which I have always done until CAS.

When I work the loading table I check to make sure those who come through have the hammer down, once in awhile someone forgets.

[gabby the frog 21716]

i think basic rule applies guns leave loading table loaded but hammer down on empty chamber when shotgun is staged

then the hammers may be cocked not before

 

 

gabby

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Gab, I cock the hammers on my TTN at the loading table. It's open and empty just like the 97 that's open and empty, hammer cocked.

[gabby the frog 21716]

your right but you wouldt do it with rifle rules should be the same less confusion

gabby

[Rye Miles #13621]

If a shooter comes up to the firing line with his rifle at half cock I simply tell him to put the hammer down. I assume the chamber is empty but then again now that I read this post I question myself. SDQ huh? I guess I'll hafta change my ways.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Think it is something that needs to be gone over at the safety meeting.

Make sure they are aware it is a SDQ if not FULLY down.

 

They get use to it being no big deal. No call at home.

Go to a big match and get popped for it.

We need to make sure our home club folks are aware of things.

Before they get to one of those big matches where thing have to be called.

 

And don't think anyone wants to call this one.

I know I felt REAL bad for having to do it. Still do.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

The simple fact is a lot of people are not aware that a rifle on half cock is not considered hammer down, but is instead considered cocked. I've caught it at the loading table a bunch of times and every time the person's reaction has been "Really?!"

 

I've witnessed a SDQ at a regional match because of this and would have to agree with Anvil Al that it is something that needs to be covered with shooters thoroughly. Simply saying "hammer down on an empty chamber" is not getting it.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

"your right but you wouldt do it with rifle rules should be the same less confusion" gabby

===============

All shotguns are open and empty when they come to the line.

 

You want me with my hammered double to do something all other pumps and hammerless shotguns do not have to do and can not do. Not cock my shotgun at the loading table. Instead you want me to come to the line and remember to cock my hammers instead of focusing on the stage itself before I start.

 

The rifles are not taken to the firing line open and empty. They are all closed and loaded. The hammer needs to be down on the empty chamber.

 

Shotguns are not loaded. Hammer position is irrelevant other than making the hammered double shooters do more than all other shotguns coming to the firing line. We already do more during the stage than all the self cockers. It is our choice. But to have to do things differently than other isn't right. It's not a safety issue. It's EMPTY and OPEN.

---------------

(I know the hammerless can be uncocked by pulling the triggers. But who is going to do that which would require closing and reopening the gun to cock and close again before shooting)

[Train Robber 13659]

While running the timer I've had a shooter come to the line with a cocked rifle . I ask for the rifle ,

 

check the chamber and so far have found it empty every time . I remind the shooter and the loading table

 

person to watch for this problem . I've given a warning to what has invariably been a newer shooter . Had never

 

thought to offer a SDQ . guess I need to refreash myself on the rulebook :-)

 

Train Robber