Long Range Pistol Cartridge Question

[SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557]

I am looking at shooting at a different club which has long range pistol cartridge rifle stages. I normally shoot mid-range cowboy loads in my Marlin cowboy 45 Colt. 250 grain bullets to limit blow back sighted in at 50 yards. I know that heavy bullet drops fast because we have one target for bonus at 100 yards that I have to hold about 10 inches high to hit. My question is would a 200 grain bullet with a full powder charge (within reloading specs)have a flatter trajectory? I now reload since ammodirect was destroyed. The powder I am using is Trail Boss.

 

Any experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

SaukValley Sam

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

My brother and I did some load testing this past Year with the 45Colt and long range reloading with the 250 gr. SWC. One load was Trail Boss the other using Alliant Unique.

The load with Trail Boss and 100 yards dropped like a rock. The Unique load shot much flatter at the same distance.

 

I would stay with the 250 gr. bullet and change your powder. In my opinion Trail Boss powder is fine for 50 yards and under. I know many use it for Long range, they also like Rainbows.

 

My Long Range loads use a powder that has some steam to get-er-done.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Exterior ballistics are governed mostly by velocity. For the flattest trajectory with a given bullet, shoot as high a velocity load as you can, still staying within rules and safety limits for your gun. A Marlin (or even better a '92) is going to be able to let you get more velocity than a '73, by the way. And Unique or an even slower powder is going to give you those better velocities, while still staying within safe pressure limits. Trail Boss is not really going to cut the mustard.

 

The game of shooting "long range" with pistol cartridge lever guns is going to demand a different load in .45 Colt than you normally shoot for CAS. Once you believe that, then probably the next concern is to find a load that shoots accurately in your gun. Accuracy will be more important than bullet drop, as long as you are not shooting much beyond 100 yards.

 

Put a good tang sight on the gun you want to use for long range. The standard open leaf sight on the barrel will NOT give you elevation heights that you will need. A Smith ladder-type open sight might, but that is as expensive as a good peep (Marbles) sight.

 

Then you will be ready to test whether a 200 or 250 grain slug is the best choice for you. You will be going up against .357 mag shooters, who are able to shoot a flatter trajectory than you will EVER be able to achieve with a .45 Colt, and they will not have the recoil to deal with that you will. So, you're starting with a few strikes against you, but the old .45 Colt can be a VERY accurate cartridge. Weight-group your slugs. Suggest you weigh your long-range powder loads. Get the best cast bullet you can buy, not Bubba's Bullets down the street (unless he's got a great track record).

 

Good luck, GJ

[Griff]

I am looking at shooting at a different club which has long range pistol cartridge rifle stages. I normally shoot mid-range cowboy loads in my Marlin cowboy 45 Colt. 250 grain bullets to limit blow back sighted in at 50 yards. I know that heavy bullet drops fast because we have one target for bonus at 100 yards that I have to hold about 10 inches high to hit. My question is would a 200 grain bullet with a full powder charge (within reloading specs)have a flatter trajectory? I now reload since ammodirect was destroyed. The powder I am using is Trail Boss.

Any experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.

SaukValley Sam

In a nutshell, YES. But...what you really seem to be asking is if the lighter bullet with a heavier charge will allow the same point of aim to have a point of impact so you don't have to adjust your sights. That answer will be a heavily qualified maybe! See Lefty's & Garrison's answers above. I foresee a LOT of load development time and range time to get the particulars just SO to accomplish your goal. Some quality time spent with a computer and trajectory program might get you close, but that range time will still be needed to confirm the computer calculations.

[Trooper John Smith SASS 5561]

I'd probably try both bullets for accuracy with your chosen powder (and it wouldn't be Trailboss!).

But I lean toward getting a good zero at whatever the long range I would be shooting, then either resetting my sights for short range, or just holding off at short range.

You'll have much less hold-off at 25 yards when zeroed at 100 than if you zero at 25 and hold off at 100. Possibly, considering the target size at short range, you won't even have to worry about hold-off.

 

Of course, I shoot 38-40, which can be made to shoot flatter than 45 Colt.

 

Trooper

[Christopher Carson]

What GJ said.

 

Trajectory won't matter as much as wind drift could, assuming your sights are up to it. You can ring steel at serious yardage, as long as you know what POI will be given a solid POA... and a tang sight will help most for that.

 

On windy days, you may find you have a slight advantage over .357 shooters with your heavier bullets.

 

I don't know .45 Colt interior ballistics, but I can tell you for .44 Mag loads -- in a suitably strong action -- I'd be using bullet weights from 240-320 grains (some experimentation), and powders like H-110/W-296, 4227, Accurate #7 or #9, 'Lil Gun (which I've not worked with yet), some of the slower VV powders shotgun/pistol, etc. Loads with 320-grainers have been useful in the past, but long-term use depends on if you can stand the recoil.

 

-Chris

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

In the past, I had good results at 100 yds with a 250 grain bullet over a published load of Red Dot. Wouldn't use that load for normal CAS rifle distance

 

Tex

[ShadowCatcher]

I am looking at shooting at a different club which has long range pistol cartridge rifle stages. I normally shoot mid-range cowboy loads in my Marlin cowboy 45 Colt. 250 grain bullets to limit blow back sighted in at 50 yards. I know that heavy bullet drops fast because we have one target for bonus at 100 yards that I have to hold about 10 inches high to hit. My question is would a 200 grain bullet with a full powder charge (within reloading specs)have a flatter trajectory? I now reload since ammodirect was destroyed. The powder I am using is Trail Boss.

 

Any experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

SaukValley Sam

 

See if this article gives any helpful information for you . .

 

45 Colt in Lever Guns

 

HTH

 

Shadow Catcher

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Howdy Sam, I ran into the same thing with a 250 gr bullet and Trail Boss in my '92 Rossi. The max load shown on Hodgdon's table for TB with a 250 gr bullet gives a leisurely velocity of 727 fps. The highest velocity shown in their data for that bullet is 946 fps with Hodgdon HS-6 powder.

 

Comparatively, a max load of TB with a 200 grain bullet shows 855 fps, but there are several powders listed that will produce velocities in the 1,050 fps range. My Speer manual shows some loads with powders not shown in Hodgdon data. Lots of good info at the link below:

 

Hodgdon Data

 

I'm no expert and never took the time to develop another load because I don't do much long range shooting. But I would think that high-end to max published loads with a 200 gr bullet will give you the results you're looking for, and with less blow-by issues common to mid-range loads.

 

Having said that, loading manuals recommend you work your way up to a max load instead of just dropping a bullet on a full load of powder. As has already been said, make some test loads and use a chronograph if you have access to one. There are lots of variables with different powders, loadings and bullets that affect performance.

 

Good luck and let us know your results!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I am gonna muddy the waters a bit and say, instead of .45 Colt, try .44 Special.

 

I load this round with a 200 grain bullet over a minimal charge of Trail Boss. I was at a shoot once where after the normal rifle string was done, you reloaded 1 round to shoot at a target way out there. Had to be about 100 yards.

 

Well, I took aim, fired, put down the rifle, reached for my shotgun... (PING!) And then said, "Wow... I hit it!"

 

This was fired from a Rossi '92, 20" bbl, chambered for .44 Magnum.

 

Given that happening, I tend to think that the .44 is better for longer range stuff than the .45.

[John Boy]

Sam, use 300gr 454 Casull's and the prescribed nitro based powder loading data. You will be happy with the range the round will achieve in your Marlin

Using my '60 Henry - the Casull's and xx gr of black powder with the leaf barrel sight cranked up ... rams went down at 500 meters. Have pictures and a spotter to say it's not an Internet cock and bull story

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

My long range lever rifle precision 45 Colt load uses a 250gr. RNFP bullet and Unique powder. Best in a Marlin. It is too hot for a toggle link gun in my opinion. (still within loading guidelines though)

[Tom Bullweed]

This sounds like fun. I have done a bit of pistol silhoutte at 25 to 100 yards.

 

The hottest loads will likely reward you with a flinch over time. I recommend consistent, warm loads. W-231 (H-38), AA#7 and Universal Clays and 255 grain bullets would be my start. Long range shooters tend to weight each load and do not vary brass.

 

You may also try weighing your bullets to find a source with limited variance in weight.

 

I would suggest getting your gun to a smith so that he could measure the chamber mouths and slug the barrel. There are bullets available in .451, .452, .454, .455 and .457.

[Curley Cole, SASS #56849]

Howdy

I shoot an EMF 1873 with 20"bbl. Using Unique behind a 205gr BearCreek rnfp bullet I am able to his a clay target at 85 plus yards and sighting directly on the target. It is a good load and seems to shoot way better than I can.

 

good shootin

curley

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Fast powders like 231/HP-38, Bullseye, and TB and such give a higher muzzel flip than say Unique and mid- range powder.

Long Range requires a load that gets the job done with less recoil, great accuracy and quick target recovery time.

 

The shooter that shoots the 10 shots, shoots 10 clean in the least amount of time will when the match.

 

If you can do this with a 300 gr. full house load, go for it. This may be a great load for a single or double tap at a distance target. Remember you must do this 10 times on the clock

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Sam, use 300gr 454 Casull's and the prescribed nitro based powder loading data. You will be happy with the range the round will achieve in your Marlin

Using my '60 Henry - the Casull's and xx gr of black powder with the leaf barrel sight cranked up ... rams went down at 500 meters. Have pictures and a spotter to say it's not an Internet cock and bull story

 

I am assuming you mean just using the long heavy projectile in a 45 Colt case and not the longer brass?

[John Boy]

I am assuming you mean just using the long heavy projectile in a 45 Colt case and not the longer brass?

Correct

[Doc Windshadow]

I wonder if you could copy the plastic pointed leverlution slugs by casting a hollow point and glueing in a soft plastic wind-cheater point that way you could get a much better BC and still have a non jacketed lead slug that would be safe in a lever-action... tough part would be making the points... I wonder if casting them in RTV would work?

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Actually did some testing the other day with 45 colt out of handy rifle. Shooting a SR3 target took 6 oclock hold grouped around the bullseye say 3 -4 inches high

 

Shot the same sight setting at 15 yard was 1 to 2 inches low. Use a 6 o'clock hold as it is easier for me to tell where the front sight is than somewhere in the black, close to the center. High Power matches have taken their toll.

[Elfego, SASS #50493]

For long range shooting in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy in 45 Colt i have successfully used 300 grain bullets charged with Elmer Keith's favorite - 2400 powder.

 

I am able to hit railroad plates offand at 200 yards. I have done the same with lighter bullets but the 300 grainers sound better when they hit the plate.

 

I did have to put a lower front sight on my Marlin and have maxed out the rear barrel sight to accomplish this task.

 

elfego

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

Howdy , I have found a 250RNFP and a load of UNIQUE works well out to 100 yard silouhette cource of fire with the Marlin rifle.

[SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557]

Good gosh - so many great replies. I will work up a load with alternate powder, just have to decide which one and bullet weight. My sincere thanks to all the cowboys out there that replied to my inquiry. My Marlin 94 came used with tang mounted Smith Ent. peep sight and and the buckhorn sight removed. I was checking on replacement sights and then found Skinner peep sights. Ordered one to try on my rifle. The tang peep sight worked great but seemed like overkill at close range. If the Skinner works like I hope, I will sight it for short range and then re-sight the flip up tang for longer distance. I am a fan of peep sights as they seem to pick up target faster and are easier to hold still for off-hand shots.

 

Thanks again for all the great advice.

 

SaukValley Sam

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I was checking on replacement sights and then found Skinner peep sights. Ordered one to try on my rifle. The tang peep sight worked great but seemed like overkill at close range. If the Skinner works like I hope, I will sight it for short range and then re-sight the flip up tang for longer distance.

Sam - Skinner peep sights, being receiver mounted, WILL NOT be legal for any cowboy side match, and certainly not for a main match gun. You need to keep using a tang mounted peep. Receiver sights are not allowed, probably due to being newer than the time era from which we get our inspiration.

 

Sorry, GJ

[SaukValley Sam, SASS # 66557]

Sam - Skinner peep sights, being receiver mounted, WILL NOT be legal for any cowboy side match, and certainly not for a main match gun. You need to keep using a tang mounted peep. Receiver sights are not allowed, probably due to being newer than the time era from which we get our inspiration.

 

Sorry, GJ

 

GJ,

 

Thanks for the heads up - hadn't thought of checking that. Skinner also makes a dovetail barrel mounted peep site. Rule book says "Modern style click adjustable barrel or receiver sights are not allowed." The barrel sight is not click adjustable, you loosen allen screws and tap for horizontal and screw in or out for vertical and then reset allen screws. Would a barrel mount non click adjustable peep be allowed?

 

Thanks again.

 

SaukValley Sam

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Fer cryin out loud, we're talking a rifle at 100 yards, not LONGGGGG range. Find a load listed at 850 fps or so with whatever powder ya like in a revolver, expect it to run 1000 fps in a rifle, and run yer 250s. You could pump it up a bit more in a Marlin or 92, but it's not needed for 100 yards. Even main match loads most use will work if ya simply hold on the top edge of the target, but the load mentioned above will require a hair less.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I just use my regular Cowboy loads 250 gr. bullets at 1,224 - 1,260 Fps. depending on rifle used ....

I use the same sight setting , for both uses ....

And I use the same loads in my pistols....

 

Keeps things simple....

 

Pistols clock between 916 - 960 Fps. dependant on firearm used ...

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[John Boy]

OK, we are talking about the CAS Mini Long Range Shooting! And we have discussed the weight of the bullets till the moon goes down. For 200 yd CAS long range, a 250gr cast bullet will be more than accurate in the hands and with the eyes of a good shooter. And the recommended bullet is ... the 454190 original Colt with a small metplat. They cast 255 to 260gr depending on the alloy used. Remember - The longer the distance with larger metplats ... decreases accuracy. More so past 200 yards

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

FWIW;

 

Last years Winter Range side match,Rifle Pistol caliber first place was 9 hits in 54.77 sec.

 

Course of fire was two targets, one at 95-100 yards the other 110-120 yards. The engagement was alternating between the two for 10 rounds. Shooter standing and Port Arms.And shooting off hand.

 

This Year 2011, same course of fire.

[George Rodgers]

The amount of drop of any given bullet is determined mostly by the shape of the bullet (ballistic coefficient) and the velocity it is traveling.

 

We had several matches where the last stage had a rifle target at about 80 yards. After getting sighted in, very few people missed the target.