Big Iron Buster Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Thinking of getting a 20" 38/357 73 for the wife. She likes the rifle but complains about the weight. Does fluting the barrel under the for-end make the Rifle that much lighter? Carbine is a option but like the regular style better. Thanks, Big Iron Buster
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Harland Wolf lightened many 73's under tha forearm, an yes you could tell tha difference. RRR
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Texas BrushPopper half round half octagon is pretty cool lookin,plus has normal sights like rifle,& what if you fluted octagon under forearm on it might make a bigger difference. or just buy some dumbells regards AO
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Cody Conagar (sp?) did one of mine along with the action job. Call him and he can tell how much weight was saved.
Cowboy Junky Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 The 19" carbines are the lightest by far. If I'm not mistaken you can even git 10 rounds of hand loaded 38's in the 16" carbine with a new styled spring that is "football" shaped...I'm sure others can confirm/contest this.
Colt McAllister Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 It makes a world of difference. I've done all of mine that way. It takes about 1/2# of weight out of a 20" gun. It totally changes the feel of the gun and the way it swings and balances. Carbines don't balance at all and are butt heavy. Plus the sight options out there don't suite me. The Brush popper just don't feel nearly as balanced as a lightened octogon barrel. The weight is out of the wrong area. Do it to your wife's rifle and I bet you'll want yours done as well. I won't give the specs. on the wire do to the whole safety thing.
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 The straight grip models seem to have heavier (fatter) barrels so be sure to look at a deluxe pistol grip model. You can have the barrel cut and crowned at an inch or so shorter and it will make a lot of difference. Once the barrel is shortened, the mag tube, a new sight dovetail, and it is machined under the barrel it can feel a bunch lighter.
Christopher Carson Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Thinking of getting a 20" 38/357 73 for the wife. She likes the rifle but complains about the weight. Does fluting the barrel under the for-end make the Rifle that much lighter? Carbine is a option but like the regular style better. Thanks, Big Iron Buster If you get a .44 WCF the barrel will be lighter -Chris
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Calico likes her 19" carbine, and also says my 20" octagon barrel is too heavy. As for the straight stock being heavier than the pistol grip, I seriously doubt it. Pretty much the same metal, and the pistol grip probably has more wood. On a personal note, I don't particularly like the looks of a lever-gun with a pistol grip. Buena suerte, eGG
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Calico likes her 19" carbine, and also says my 20" octagon barrel is too heavy. As for the straight stock being heavier than the pistol grip, I seriously doubt it. Pretty much the same metal, and the pistol grip probably has more wood. On a personal note, I don't particularly like the looks of a lever-gun with a pistol grip. Buena suerte, eGG Hey there Fat Cat, As I looked at the ones standing in my guncart and guncase I could tell the straight grips have fatter barrels than the pistol grip ones standing beside them. Maybe tonite I can post pics? The pistol grip has more wood in the grip but the straight stock has a slightly longer forestock so its a wash? My personal preference is for a straight grip shotgun... Cya
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 The 19" carbines are the lightest by far. If I'm not mistaken you can even git 10 rounds of hand loaded 38's in the 16" carbine with a new styled spring that is "football" shaped...I'm sure others can confirm/contest this. CJ, it doesn't take a special spring to fit ten .38 special rounds in the 16" Trapper. On the other hand, only nine .357's will fit. Big Iron Buster, another option would be to take a look at the full octagon 18" rifle. It is what I shoot, but honestly, if a lady thinks a 20" gun is heavy, she'll probably feel the same way about the 18" gun....but every little bit helps. This, combined with the fluting, might be just what will make her happy. It's really about what feels good to a person. While others might not like the half round barrel, when I've had the opportunity to handle one, I've liked it. Although some claim the carbine is too light, I can point you to a shooter who is fast enough to remove any doubts about its ability to perform. On occassion, I've shot Sugah's 1866 Trapper with a 16" barrel and I expected it to feel awkward and light, but in actuality, it felt great. She loves it and any lady who has ever picked it up has thought it was great.
Mustang Gregg Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Fluting under the barrel only? Not flutes equadistantly across from each other? Heck, it may be okay for low-pressure, low velocity CAS rifles. But I've been told that they should be flutes all-around, not just one side. I have a couple of varmint rifles that are fluted all-around & two IHMSA handguns that are too. Please let me know. Mustang Gregg
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Mustang Gregg, fluting the barrel where it shows is an ILLEGAL external modification. That is why metal is removed under the forearm only. If you can't see it it is legal.
Manatee Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Fluting under the barrel only? Not flutes equadistantly across from each other? Heck, it may be okay for low-pressure, low velocity CAS rifles. But I've been told that they should be flutes all-around, not just one side. I have a couple of varmint rifles that are fluted all-around & two IHMSA handguns that are too. Please let me know. Mustang Gregg It's one of those "cowboy competition" deals. Not something I would ever do. Especially if the gun is going to be resold or used by someone else. Yah, you've potentially created a weaker area under the barrel ahead of the chamber. You've destroyed the proof testing of the barrel. You've voided the warranty. You'd lose a lawsuit. So, all in all, if it's something you just absolutely need to do, you'd be better off buying a carbine or putting a proofed round barrel on the gun. The cowboy way ends when the widow picks up the phone to call her lawyer.
Mustang Gregg Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Happy Jack: Yep, I figured that's what ("internal" mods only) the poster was pondering, too. Manatee: I like the widow/lawyer analogy. It makes sense! MG
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Hey there Fat Cat, As I looked at the ones standing in my guncart and guncase I could tell the straight grips have fatter barrels than the pistol grip ones standing beside them. Maybe tonite I can post pics? The pistol grip has more wood in the grip but the straight stock has a slightly longer forestock so its a wash? My personal preference is for a straight grip shotgun... Cya Hey, amigo! I am always willing to get educated! I don't suppose the bathroom scale or kitchen scale would offer further enlightenment? eGG
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 BIB, Cody has done that for me a number of times on 24" rifles (they have a longer forearm)then cutting to 19". This was especailly true back before the 20" rifle became popular. I believe the barrels on the 24" models are not as heavy as they were 7-8 years ago so fluting may not remove near as much weight as in the past. As Colt, I tried the carbines, and just did not feel comfortable with them. bb
Big Iron Buster Posted February 8, 2011 Author Posted February 8, 2011 Howdy folks, got some good information, now need to see what is best for the little lady. Remember when she's happy my world is happy. Thanks Again, Big Iron Buster Hope to see a bunch of you guys at WR. Look me up at Desperado Cowboy Bullets booth.
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Howdy folks, got some good information, now need to see what is best for the little lady. Remember when she's happy my world is happy. Thanks Again, Big Iron Buster Hope to see a bunch of you guys at WR. Look me up at Desperado Cowboy Bullets booth. Look forward to seeing you again Buster. Is that older, white haired "gentleman" coming along? You know, the one that hangs out at the Desperado booth. ha, ha, ha, ha, 4 for #4. Assume you are still shooting FCD, it keeps getting tougher. Non-Stop and I should roll in to Phoenix Sunday afternoon. Drive safe. bb
Big Iron Buster Posted February 9, 2011 Author Posted February 9, 2011 Look forward to seeing you again Buster. Is that older, white haired "gentleman" coming along? You know, the one that hangs out at the Desperado booth. ha, ha, ha, ha, 4 for #4. Assume you are still shooting FCD, it keeps getting tougher. Non-Stop and I should roll in to Phoenix Sunday afternoon. Drive safe. bb Howdy Billy, yep 2 X 2 will be there. He should pull in sometime Monday. Plans are to arrive Monday afternoon myself and bringing the misses, her first WR shooting. You know what they say "There's Always Some Kid". Anyway you drive safe also with all that bad weather you boys have had in Texas. Looking forward to chatting with ya again soon. Big Iron Buster
Stump Water Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 The cowboy way ends when the widow picks up the phone to call her lawyer. Good grief Manatee. You and I both know that, if you load up a round that's hot enough to stress "that weaker area under the barrel ahead of the chamber" or compromised proof tested barrel you're going to "compromise" that inherently unsafe toggle link action. Where all does the "boogey man" persist? How light can the trigger be? How "slick" can the action be? I want my varmint rifle's trigger to break at 1.5#, is that widow/lawyer territory also?
Manatee Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Stump? Do you know the specification on how much metal can be removed from the underside of a barrel? 38 Yellowboys and 44 Mag 73's? I don't. And a few of the barrels that I've seen that have had this done don't just cut ahead of the chamber...they cut into it. And what happens if the pard has a squib that goes part way down the barrel followed by a double charge that he f*d up on his loading press right behind the squib? Never seen that at a match, have ya? You know what happens when all of these events come together with one shooter on a bad day? I don't. But, what I do know is that some of the folks workin on their guns on this cowboy circuit don't really think long term. They do things that appear cool and perhaps might even make someone a little faster. And some of them, God help them, actually believe the crap they see here and take that for scientific certainty. And yah, the links might give out first.....and throw that cross-pinned firing pin extension that Uberti built BEFORE they changed to a safer configuration...right up agin yer forehaid. So, I'll be glad to refrain from tellin anyone "I told you so" in the unlikely event that they end up maimed or dead from a gun mod. But the widow might not be so affable. Don't even get me started on Ruger half-cock hammers that don't really have a full safety notch...........
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Deleted come on now dude, don't hold back. I'm disapointed in you.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Deleted Wow that was quick.....good thing I'm a fast reader...LOL Stan
Stump Water Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 what I do know is that some of the folks workin on their guns on this cowboy circuit don't really think long term. They do things that appear cool and perhaps might even make someone a little faster. And some of them, God help them, actually believe the crap they see here and take that for scientific certainty. Anybody that does anything based solely on "advice" given on an internet forum... well, ya can't fix stupid. On that we agree. And if ya don't know what yer doin', dont. I choose my gunsmiths carefully (and auto mechanics, etc.)... and I trust 'em.
Fireball #7709 Life Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 come on now dude, don't hold back. I'm disapointed in you. Now that's funny, Colt, showing restraint?! I've been gone awhile
Manatee Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Anybody that does anything based solely on "advice" given on an internet forum... well, ya can't fix stupid. On that we agree. And if ya don't know what yer doin', dont. I choose my gunsmiths carefully (and auto mechanics, etc.)... and I trust 'em. It ain't so much "Stupid" ya have to worry about. It's Stupid's spouse. And while you may trust your gunsmith implicitly, along with your doctor and auto mechanic, I wonder why we have 100,000+ deaths from physician mistakes each year. And, Lord knows an auto mechanic never made a mistake. Uberti changed the attachment method of the firing pin extension to the bolt in a 73 at least 3 times in my memory. I wonder why that was? I doubt it was a cost reduction since the newest method is clearly more process intensive than prior methods. When someone starts defeating interlocks, welding up triggers, removing half-cock notches, installing links that don't line up in battery, and removing barrel material.....it causes me to stop and ponder what testing might have been performed to insure that the firearm is at least as safe as the manufacturer made it. And what happens when Stupid gets ahold of it and gets a squib or a double charge and doesn't stop...cuz you and I both know that idjits grow on trees and we still let them on the range. So, yah, mebbe I'm bein' a bit negative, but there are forums on the internet where people don't accuse posters of being Henny Penny when they bring up a concern over safety. Mebbe it's because those other action sports take mechanical firearm safety a little more seriously than the folks here do. I bet that's it. Bye
Griff Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Manatee, You make a LOT of sense, Sir. Doing such a thing really does seem stupid. While it may be possible to do this without any downside... your point is really, really well taken.
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Took a look in the Handbook and found some pertinent passages ... Page 3: "Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal." "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." "Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the ONLY source of approval." "Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal." Page 4: "Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here." "Barrels or chambers may be rebored, lined, or sleeved to any of the approved calibers or gauges for that particular firearm provided industry safe limits are maintained." "Original barrels may be replaced with new barrels of correct styles (e.g., round, octagon, half-round) for that particular model firearm. The sentences from Page 3 are self-explanatory. I don't think the argument that because the fluting is hidden from view by the forearm it's OK. The rule specifically addresses internal mods (like a short stroke kit). Barrel fluting is obviously an external mod. As Manatee so well pointed out, this mod removes material from the chamber area, compromising the integrity of the gun. Doesn't seem like that's maintaining industry safe limits. Correct style of barrels ... to my knowledge Winchester never offered a '73 with a fluted barrel, anymore than Marlin did a '94. If they did, somebody post a link. Finally, from Page 3: "A stage disqualification is issued for each stage in which a non-SASS legal firearm is used." I'm thinking we need a ruling here.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Took a look in the Handbook and found some pertinent passages ... Page 3: "Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal." "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." "Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the ONLY source of approval." "Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal." Page 4: "Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here." "Barrels or chambers may be rebored, lined, or sleeved to any of the approved calibers or gauges for that particular firearm provided industry safe limits are maintained." "Original barrels may be replaced with new barrels of correct styles (e.g., round, octagon, half-round) for that particular model firearm. The sentences from Page 3 are self-explanatory. I don't think the argument that because the fluting is hidden from view by the forearm it's OK. The rule specifically addresses internal mods (like a short stroke kit). Barrel fluting is obviously an external mod. As Manatee so well pointed out, this mod removes material from the chamber area, compromising the integrity of the gun. Doesn't seem like that's maintaining industry safe limits. Correct style of barrels ... to my knowledge Winchester never offered a '73 with a fluted barrel, anymore than Marlin did a '94. If they did, somebody post a link. Finally, from Page 3: "A stage disqualification is issued for each stage in which a non-SASS legal firearm is used." I'm thinking we need a ruling here. Dude - the fluting is done on the bottom only and is hidden by the forend. Here we go...folks getting in a big uproar over crap that been around forever. OY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Colt McAllister Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Took a look in the Handbook and found some pertinent passages ... Page 3: "Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal." "Any firearm modification not referenced in this Handbook is prohibited." "Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the ONLY source of approval." "Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal." Page 4: "Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here." "Barrels or chambers may be rebored, lined, or sleeved to any of the approved calibers or gauges for that particular firearm provided industry safe limits are maintained." "Original barrels may be replaced with new barrels of correct styles (e.g., round, octagon, half-round) for that particular model firearm. The sentences from Page 3 are self-explanatory. I don't think the argument that because the fluting is hidden from view by the forearm it's OK. The rule specifically addresses internal mods (like a short stroke kit). Barrel fluting is obviously an external mod. As Manatee so well pointed out, this mod removes material from the chamber area, compromising the integrity of the gun. Doesn't seem like that's maintaining industry safe limits. Correct style of barrels ... to my knowledge Winchester never offered a '73 with a fluted barrel, anymore than Marlin did a '94. If they did, somebody post a link. Finally, from Page 3: "A stage disqualification is issued for each stage in which a non-SASS legal firearm is used." I'm thinking we need a ruling here. Your 8 years to late. It's been ruled on and World championships have been won with guns with this mod. Oh yeah I bet 95% of the guns out there don't maintain industry safe limits. ie a trigger pull below 4 lbs. Here's the most important point. Don't judge every job by the one guy that does the job wrong. Also don't believe everything you read on the internet.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Your 8 years to late. It's been ruled on and World championships have been won with guns with this mod. Oh yeah I bet 95% of the guns out there don't maintain industry safe limits. ie a trigger pull below 4 lbs. Here's the most important point. Don't judge every job by the one guy that does the job wrong. Also don't believe everything you read on the internet. Conflicting opinions on the safety issue aside, this is considered an INTERNAL modification: ALL FIREARMS• ... • Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here. SHB p.4 ...as it is not visible...same application of the rule re: adding weight INSIDE the buttstock to reduce felt recoil and/or alter the balance of a long gun. i.e. • Visible counter-weighting devices are not allowed. SHB p.5This implies that INvisible counter-weighting devices ARE allowed. The same would apply to INvisible weight reduction modifications.
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 If a lady shooter feels a gun is too heavy most likely it is because it's front heavy. Any time she is holding a gun up and her elbow is beyond 90 degrees she will struggle to hold it up. The simple fix is to cut the buttstock so that the thumb of her trigger finger is no more than 3" from her nose but no closer than "1.
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