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Possum Skinner, SASS#60697

Stupid club rules

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A club I visit still requires the long guns staged vertically on some stages. Mucho problemo and awkward for doubles.

But I still enjoy going. Hope to lose some weight to ease my bending.

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As unlikely as it may be, I've seen it happen at a shoot with a 38 tossed out of a rifle. Hit the gravel and went off, while everyone looked around a little confused as to where the extra "pop" came from. With an unconfined round going off, the brass is more dangerous than the bullet, we found the case and it was blown open. Worst it would have done is give a nasty cut though.

 

Not saying there should be rules against it, personally if I have a live round left in my double and another gun to shoot, I'll shuck the live round on the ground and go.

 

I had a .45 round go off in my oven (drying BP brass with an errant live round in the mix), and not much of nothin happened except it scared heck outta me and the Mrs, and I got to clean the oven. The bullet won't move with enough force to do much if any damage, though a hunk of brass might break skin if yer nearby. I expect that would be no worse than the fairly frequent bloodletting due to splatter. We're at a shooting range, with real bullets and everything. Wear good glasses and appropriate clothing and yer gonna minimize the damage when it happens.

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As I recall in the military, Port Arms would mean the rifle was on the same plane as the firing line. One of my first matches we were supposed to start with the rifle at Port Arms. I held the rifle close to Port Arms and got in trouble. I said close to Port Arms as it seemed stupid to hold the rifle that way at a match.

 

Colorado Lightning

Port-Arms (military). No way can the Military port arms break the 170 if properly done, barrels not pointed at anyone, and rifle held 4 inches from body. If there is a question on this, then maybe rifles need to be loaded only on the firing line. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paloverde.org%2Frotc%2Fafjrotc%2Fhtml%2Fmanual_of_arms.HTM&ei=CPxOTdHoCYH-8AbIy-H9Dg&usg=AFQjCNGAGISEjmFe5_GQ2Uo_khhoIlUklQ

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Clubs that require every shooter to use a club supplied loading block to load rifles and pistols. This requires me to bring my loading strip to the loading table, unload it into the club provided loading block and then into my guns.

 

 

Never heard of that one.

That really is stupid. :blink::wacko:

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All the confusion has made a lot of clubs to quit using Port Arms at all. Many now just say holding gun with both hands. This allows a rifle to be started aimed at target if shooter desires.

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All the confusion has made a lot of clubs to quit using Port Arms at all. Many now just say holding gun with both hands. This allows a rifle to be started aimed at target if shooter desires.

I agree a lot of clubs quit using port arms as a starting position. But its also because they don't want to take the time to correct a shooter that doesn't know it correctly, or has not been shown it correctly. Myself, I will correct a shooter and not start timer till they correctly assume position if that is the position called for. I blame the home clubs mainly for not taking time to correct bad habits, then they carry over to outside areas, and if not corrected, will carry over to other shooters that Port-Arms is a, "as you want it" position.

There's some very good criticism here, very productive forum. Hopefully it will be used to correct or modify some of these to make CAS more enjoyable, and hassle free.

Keep up these good thoughts, I'm learning from them. MT

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It's Stoopid 'cuz it's a P trap...guarantteeeeed.

 

:FlagAm:

 

That's my take. The SASS rules say a miss can't cause a P at the same time. I'm fine with them writing stages any way they want, but modifying the rules to create additional errors that don't exist the way the rules were written is out of line.

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I agree a lot of clubs quit using port arms as a starting position. But its also because they don't want to take the time to correct a shooter that doesn't know it correctly, or has not been shown it correctly. Myself, I will correct a shooter and not start timer till they correctly assume position if that is the position called for. I blame the home clubs mainly for not taking time to correct bad habits, then they carry over to outside areas, and if not corrected, will carry over to other shooters that Port-Arms is a, "as you want it" position.

There's some very good criticism here, very productive forum. Hopefully it will be used to correct or modify some of these to make CAS more enjoyable, and hassle free.

Keep up these good thoughts, I'm learning from them. MT

So what is your definition of cowboy port arms that we all should be following? Personally I hold the rifle centered in front of me about 3-6 inches from belt at the bottom and maybe 12 inches to my shoulder at the top of the barrel, barrel about 18 inches to top of my head with the barrel at least at shoulder height and the butt at holster height with barrel tilted somewhat down range.

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Port-Arms (military). No way can the Military port arms break the 170 if properly done, barrels not pointed at anyone, and rifle held 4 inches from body. If there is a question on this, then maybe rifles need to be loaded only on the firing line. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paloverde.org%2Frotc%2Fafjrotc%2Fhtml%2Fmanual_of_arms.HTM&ei=CPxOTdHoCYH-8AbIy-H9Dg&usg=AFQjCNGAGISEjmFe5_GQ2Uo_khhoIlUklQ

 

It does break the 170 rule if the shooter is facing the targets. If one is right-handed and faces 90 degrees to the right, it's perfectly safe because the muzzle is oriented straight towards the targets.

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Port-Arms (military). No way can the Military port arms break the 170 if properly done, barrels not pointed at anyone, and rifle held 4 inches from body. If there is a question on this, then maybe rifles need to be loaded only on the firing line. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paloverde.org%2Frotc%2Fafjrotc%2Fhtml%2Fmanual_of_arms.HTM&ei=CPxOTdHoCYH-8AbIy-H9Dg&usg=AFQjCNGAGISEjmFe5_GQ2Uo_khhoIlUklQ

I have never ever seen a club require Military port arms??? Why?

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Which is why safety glasses are a very good idea. Lets put this "problem" in perspective. How often does a dropped round go off? I used to work full time at a range and personally saw MILLIONS of rounds per year go downrange. Quite a few were dropped on concrete, asphalt or gravel and in all the years I've spent on the range I saw less than the fingers of one hand actually go off when the primer struck a rock just right. Only one resulted in an injury and that was a bruise on the shooter's arm. He dumped a cylinder full of 38's and one of the live rounds hit just right. The case didn't split, the mouth belled and the bullet traveled straight up into his arm. Huh. Million to one shot if you ask me. :blink:

 

I saw far more shooters injured because they holstered with their fingers on the trigger.....

 

One can carry this "safety at all costs" a little too far. :huh:

 

I have personally witnessed a 38 that was dropped on asphalt, gone off.

 

A piece of brass shrapnel drew blood from a 2nd cowpoke's check. About a 1" higher it would have been his eye.

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I once visited a club and when I arrived at the loading table the monitor told me that I needed to take the rounds out of my loading strip and place them in four rows of five. I thought he just didn't understand that the strip was in two rows of ten...with a dividing line between...creating four groups of five. Sooooo, I pointed this out. "Nope," he says, "You've gotta place them on the table in four rows of five. It's a club rule." I would discover that when it came to stage design, the club liked to "challenge" shooters. I doubt that many would be surprised to find that the club no longer exists.

 

When will those double dealing do-badders, Dick Dastardly and Muttley realize that in spite of their best bad efforts, Peter Perfect or Penelope Pitstop will still win...and likely with a bigger lead?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhRr-Ea61c

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I once visited a club and when I arrived at the loading table and the monitor told me that I needed to take the rounds out of my loading strip and place them in four rows of five. I thought he just didn't understand that the strip was in two rows of ten...with a dividing line between...creating four groups of five. Sooooo, I pointed this out. "Nope," he says, "You've gotta place them on the table in four rows of five. It's a club rule."

Yep, once at an out of state club, I went to the loading table with my loading strip, ten on each side. I showed it to the LTO and started to load my rifle, he stopped me and said I had to wait untill the feller in front of me finished loading. I showed it to him again noting that ten is all it would hold, and he had already counted the other fellers rounds, nope had to wait. So there was no way to get loaded up and have few seconds to breath before being called to the line. In fact often there was a delay between shooters, but that's the way they did it. :wacko: When in Rome :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Yep, once at an out of state club, I went to the loading table with my loading strip, ten on each side. I showed it to the LTO and started to load my rifle, he stopped me and said I had to wait untill the feller in front of me finished loading. I ishowed it to him again noting that ten is all it would hold, and he had already counted the other fellers rounds, nope had to wait. So there was no way to get loaded up and have few seconds to breath before being called to the line. In fact often there was a delay between shooters, but that's the way they did it. :wacko: When in Rome :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

I think that is why a lot of SASS states do not use loading table oversight.

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So what is your definition of cowboy port arms that we all should be following? Personally I hold the rifle centered in front of me about 3-6 inches from belt at the bottom and maybe 12 inches to my shoulder at the top of the barrel, barrel about 18 inches to top of my head with the barrel at least at shoulder height and the butt at holster height with barrel tilted somewhat down range.

The same. Very good definition as written. MT

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And I have personally seen a live shotgun shell dropped and go off.

 

What a non-event. It just laid there and fizzled a little, split the side and the shot dribbled out.

Without the confines of a barrel, it's pretty harmless. ;)

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I had the same thing happen to me on a plate rack....the targets had to fall in order when shot with the rifle. I dropped the first couple plates and the 3rd plate started to fall but only rocked my eye picked up the initial movement and I had shot 1 or 2 more before I noticed the plated didn't fall so I earned a P. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was bad stage writing or even a P trap but if you didn't slow down and focus you could easily get caught.

 

Granted I would have probably wrote it where you engage the targets in a specific order and then make up any stragglers with the extra round(s) or with a shotgun.....but hey I'm a nice guy :rolleyes:

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Aye, true dat!

 

As is the SASS rule regarding double shotgun barrels being up AND the action open. Frankly, for me, it seems that someone's just wanting to punish double shooters 'cause they were far more convienent to be carried draped over the forearm. I had a lady scream at me once (before plain stupidity became embedded in stone with the enactment of this rule), about how my barrels were pointed at her feet. I gotta admit... I told her not to stand so close. Ok, well I didn't use those exact words.

Totally agree but I doubt that it will ever be changed almost every other game where you see SxS shotguns and in hunting the proper way to carry a SxS is open and muzzle down.

 

But I expect this rule will change about the same time we see porcine aviation :wacko:

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

Yep, some of these were stupid. :wacko: Some made some sense.

 

The way I see it---

(1) If you don't like the way they run the match, join and run for executive committee.

(2) Don't come back anymore. Shoot somewhere else.

 

MG

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

Yep, some of these were stupid. :wacko: Some made some sense.

 

The way I see it---

(1) If you don't like the way they run the match, join and run for executive committee.

(2) Don't come back anymore. Shoot somewhere else.

 

MG

Most shooters opt for (2), I sure do. Maybe when those clubs get down to 6 or 7 members they might figure it is not the economy that has closed their club.

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The same. Very good definition as written. MT

You would be amazed at the number of ROs that tell me I have to have the butt of the long gun at my side and not in front of me for port arms.

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You would be amazed at the number of ROs that tell me I have to have the butt of the long gun at my side and not in front of me for port arms.

I wonder if that version comes from the international versions of the Shotgun sports I have a white tape effect sewn on my Shotgun vest that is used for when I used to shoot the FITASC version the Olympic Skeet and Trap position rule is similar I think

From their shooting rules page 4&5 here http://www.fitasc.info/upload/reglements/ParcoursDeChasse230908_UK.pdf to see the illustration mentioned

3.1

Shooting position

3.1.1

Shooters must adopt the ready position, i.e. standing with both feet within the limits of the shooting stand, with the heel of the gun stock touching the body under a horizontal line marked on the shooter's jacket. This line is 25 cm (9.85") below the axis of the shoulder and in parallel with this axis (see diagram below). Shooters must remain in this position until the target is released and is visible.

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FWIW, Cowboy Port Arms is described in the Stage Conventions of the Handbook.

 

11. Cowboy port arms is defined as standing fully erect with the butt of the long gun at or below

the waist of the shooter, the muzzle at or above the shoulder, and the long gun held with both

hands.

 

Leaves a fair amount of wiggle room to position the rifle.

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At every club I've shot at here in Ohio, port arms is with butt stock touching gun belt and muzzle at or above shoulder level. Simple to comply with and easy to make sure everyone does it correctly.

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At every club I've shot at here in Ohio, port arms is with butt stock touching gun belt and muzzle at or above shoulder level. Simple to comply with and easy to make sure everyone does it correctly.

 

But this is not correct...one's Waist is not the same as one's gun belt.

 

And who really cares if there's an inch or two in wiggle room. It ain't gunna make a difference in the outcome of the match...trust me.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Hi Folks,

 

I think the biggest problem with Cowboy Port Arms is with the creepers and crouchers. Not to forget those who almost have their rifles pointed down range rather than upward.

 

Rather than deal with them, I'd rather see the scenario say, "stand with rifle in firing position." There is no doubt that anyone will fudge it.

 

Hubby got so tired of dealing with the "fudgers," he quit using it and either used the preceding or what he called "cowboy pose." With it, you stand upright with buttstock on a prop, one hand holding the barrel up, and other hand on your hip/waist.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Most places, a Miss is not a Procedural, I guess making a Miss a Procedural makes sense to some folks, not me, but some folks....

 

Doubly true if you happen to shoot black powder.....

 

"Knock Downs must fall in order engaged" is not stupid to me. Any more than a Texas star or swinger target.

 

The club I shoot with has this fairly often and it just adds variety to the stages to me.

 

Last fall I saw the stage writer put about 6 hits on #1, a stubborn KD, before he could go to #2. It was fair because it was the same target for everyone at the match and the stubborn KD was not replaced to make it easy for others.

 

If all that matters is how fast you can hit a target every stage would be 10-10-4 on a dump target.

 

By the way, I do not write stages or shoot very fast but I do enjoy trying the difficult stages as well as the fast ones. I like a challenge occasionally.

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As one of the best Chief Petty Officers I ever served under told me many years ago, "Stupid rules are ment to be ignored, just complete your duties on time, correctly, and safely, and no one's gonna jump ya fer it."

 

In CAS, play by the local club rules or don't, they kin only give ya one "P" per stage.

 

:FlagAm:

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Getting back to the OP question of stupid rules

 

A. One club I shot at (once) said no running between shooting positions :blink: Must walk , and whether you were walking or running was RO decision.

B. One club I shot at (once) said no pistols out of the holster until both feet were planted. And no movement until both pistols were back in the holster.

 

I understand some club rules are there because of unique issues, such as port arms being muzzle down because a round over the berm could be a real issue due to unseen hazards beyond the berm or

no loading SG on the run because of liability/insurance issues. When those rules are explained up front I have no problems but sometimes the rule just doesn't make sense (see A or B above).

YMMV

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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crouchers. Not to forget those who almost have their rifles pointed down range rather than upward.

 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

The "croushers" I see, are the ones with rifle pointed almost at targets. Several shooters that were doing this on a posse I was shooting with, not ROing, I knew they all shot at the club. I asked one why that position for Port-Arms. She told me thats how the club interprets Port-Arms. MT

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As I recall in the military, Port Arms would mean the rifle was on the same plane as the firing line. One of my first matches we were supposed to start with the rifle at Port Arms. I held the rifle close to Port Arms and got in trouble. I said close to Port Arms as it seemed stupid to hold the rifle that way at a match.

 

Colorado Lightning

 

Our club calls it "Cowboy Port Arms", and defines it. Terms are used in different context from time to time.

 

CR

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Our club calls it "Cowboy Port Arms", and defines it. Terms are used in different context from time to time.

 

CR

Again, check out the Military Manuals of Arms, go down to Port-Arms. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paloverde.org%2Frotc%2Fafjrotc%2Fhtml%2Fmanual_of_arms.HTM&ei=BD1QTaOgNcmWtwexkrm1AQ&usg=AFQjCNGAGISEjmFe5_GQ2Uo_khhoIlUklQ

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Most shooters opt for (2), I sure do. Maybe when those clubs get down to 6 or 7 members they might figure it is not the economy that has closed their club.

 

Unfortunately, that is not what I have observed. Once it gets down to those few who decided the path to begin with, the path will be followed…even if the path runs off a cliff.

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