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Possum Skinner, SASS#60697

Stupid club rules

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Ongoing post reminded me...

 

Have you ever shot somewhere that had really stupid club rules? What's the worst you've seen?

 

A pard of mine recently shot a match that required some pistol knockdowns to be shot 1,2,3,4,5,6. So far, so good. The thing is they had to be knocked down in that order. This pard shot 1, 2 and 1 didn't go down. He got a miss for #1 (he didn't think he could make it up without getting a P) and a P for not knocking over #1 before 2 went down.

 

Another time I shot a match a couple of years ago that had a similar club rule that required shotgun to be knocked down in the order specified. Not engaged. Knocked down. But at least there you only got a miss, unless you made up the first target after another target fell. Hell on double shooters.

 

Same club also will not let the shooter shuck a live shotshell. Also, hard on double shooters.

 

I don't mind rules that make sense, but I really HATE stupid rules.

 

Same match had a stage that required one pistol be staged on each side of an opening in a bar. The pistols were to be shot back-to-back. Were both within easy reach, so I asked can I shoot them gunfighter? No, they could NOT be shot gunfighter.

 

Possum

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Ongoing post reminded me...

 

Have you ever shot somewhere that had really stupid club rules? What's the worst you've seen?

 

A pard of mine recently shot a match that required some pistol knockdowns to be shot 1,2,3,4,5,6. So far, so good. The thing is they had to be knocked down in that order. This pard shot 1, 2 and 1 didn't go down. He got a miss for #1 (he didn't think he could make it up without getting a P) and a P for not knocking over #1 before 2 went down.

 

Another time I shot a match a couple of years ago that had a similar club rule that required shotgun to be knocked down in the order specified. Not engaged. Knocked down. But at least there you only got a miss, unless you made up the first target after another target fell. Hell on double shooters.

 

Same club also will not let the shooter shuck a live shotshell. Also, hard on double shooters.

 

I don't mind rules that make sense, but I really HATE stupid rules.

 

Same match had a stage that required one pistol be staged on each side of an opening in a bar. The pistols were to be shot back-to-back. Were both within easy reach, so I asked can I shoot them gunfighter? No, they could NOT be shot gunfighter.

 

Possum

 

Yep, One of the clubs I shoot at has a stupid rule, well several. This on is shotgun knock downs have to be shot in a given order. If say #1 doesn't go down you can't shoot #2 until #1 is down. Could be the same club you are talking about. Now that really slows down a double. Just don't understand some match directors thinking.

A good club says in any order and make up in any order. Oh well.

Wyandot

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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the way the pistol knockdown stage is written. The stage writer probably chose his wording carefully. It may not be your cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong. I'm very careful how I use the words hit, engage and knock down when writing stages.

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At some shoots I've attended, if a pistol KD didn't fall after engaging it, you were allowed to pick it up later in the stage with your shotgun to avoid the penalties. Perhaps the club of which you speak could adopt the same rule?

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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the way the pistol knockdown stage is written. The stage writer probably chose his wording carefully. It may not be your cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong. I'm very careful how I use the words hit, engage and knock down when writing stages.

 

i dont see anything right with it. how about a miss cant cause a P?

how about black powder shooters? seen a P on the SG for that.

why would you discourage a shooter from advancing until a target falls?

this is cowboy action shooting. not bullseye, not pop n spot.

engage is one thing fall is something entirely different.

yep stooopid.

 

other thing that bothers me is the plant and poke (cant move with a round on an open carrier)

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i dont see anything right with it. how about a miss cant cause a P?

 

Didn't say a thing about this. I simply stated I see nothing wrong with the way the stage is written. Don't read things into a simple statement. In fact, I'd like to see the exact wording for the stage, which we don't have. You know how things get lost in translation. Where were the extra shots 7-10 supposed to go? On a dump? If that is the case, then you have 10 shots to knock down 6 targets -- not difficult. Like I said, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I like the odd stage here and there. Granted, I wouldn't want it on every stage, but occasionally it is fun for me. There is nothing stupid, just different. YMMV.

 

why would you discourage a shooter from advancing until a target falls? this is cowboy action shooting. not bullseye, not pop n spot.

 

Why not? This is what the stage writer envisioned for the particular stage. Maybe you don't like the way the stage is written, but ten others did? We all take away different things from this game, and you are never going to please everyone, plain and simple.

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Not a "stupid club rule", but one day I would like to start a portfolio on the many different ways, "Cowboy Port Arms" is executed, and allowed by different clubs. MT

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"Knock Downs must fall in order engaged" is not stupid to me. Any more than a Texas star or swinger target.

 

The club I shoot with has this fairly often and it just adds variety to the stages to me.

 

Last fall I saw the stage writer put about 6 hits on #1, a stubborn KD, before he could go to #2. It was fair because it was the same target for everyone at the match and the stubborn KD was not replaced to make it easy for others.

 

If all that matters is how fast you can hit a target every stage would be 10-10-4 on a dump target.

 

By the way, I do not write stages or shoot very fast but I do enjoy trying the difficult stages as well as the fast ones. I like a challenge occasionally.

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CC Sir :

As to the plant then poke , I would assume you have never seen anyone slip while moving with a shotgun .

I have and can tell you , that you can do jumping jacks in the end of the barrels .

 

Chickasaw Bill

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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the way the pistol knockdown stage is written. The stage writer probably chose his wording carefully. It may not be your cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong. I'm very careful how I use the words hit, engage and knock down when writing stages.

 

It's Stoopid 'cuz it's a P trap...guarantteeeeed.

 

:FlagAm:

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Not a "stupid club rule", but one day I would like to start a portfolio on the many different ways, "Cowboy Port Arms" is executed, and allowed by different clubs. MT

 

+1

 

The only "Port Arms" I'd ever heard of, before S.A.S.S. was military "Port Arms", which violates the 180 degree rule. So, I assumed military Port Arms in a rifle stance with feet and shoulders angled towards the target. I was told that was an unfair advantage, and I had to stand square to the target prior to the buzzer.

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CC Sir :

As to the plant then poke , I would assume you have never seen anyone slip while moving with a shotgun .

I have and can tell you , that you can do jumping jacks in the end of the barrels .

 

Chickasaw Bill

 

Nope...never seen this...in all the years that I've been doing this game.

 

But I do think that we should all wear bullet proof suits and play in rubber rooms...or we could design stages where one doesn't have to run 100 yards between shotgun positions.

 

Oy!!

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+1

 

The only "Port Arms" I'd ever heard of, before S.A.S.S. was military "Port Arms", which violates the 180 degree rule. So, I assumed military Port Arms in a rifle stance with feet and shoulders angled towards the target. I was told that was an unfair advantage, and I had to stand square to the target prior to the buzzer.

 

Whoever told you that's an idjut.

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As long as any not quite standard rules are announced so that visitors know about them, I don't have a problem with them, folks have to do what they have to do to make their range safe.

 

On the other hand, I don't appreciate P traps in any shape or form. Make me think, that's fine, but make it unclear or so convoluted that you need step by step coaching on the clock kinda sucks the fun right out.

 

Thankfully I have yet to encounter a pistol know down or a Texas star at a cowboy match. Only Texas star I've shot was in a defensive pistol match, and I failed miserably.

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Some Folks consider the SASS rule that SxS shotguns be carried muzzle up when almost every other sport that used shotguns recommend open and down such as in the crook of the arm. this is very tough on folks with a lifetime of skeet trap sporting clays bird hunting who may be dinged with a minor SV until they retrain the habits of a lifetime

 

But the rule is there I assume for consistency so that all long guns are carried the same way and is something that you have to accept if you want to enjoy our sport local clubs have local rules some times for local reasons I shot at one club that did not use positions 12 to 36 on their firing line or let you shoot anything but .22 rimfire between 10 and 11 AM on sunday to avoid disturbing a local church service

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+1

 

military "Port Arms", which violates the 180 degree rule.

????????????????????????????????? How! I've heard many say that also, but with barrel up? Barrel up is the way we walk to firing line and un-loading table. Its laugable sometimes.

I needed to add, one club had me almost point rifle at target for their Port-Arms, 6 inches more and it would have been shouldered. MT

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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the way the pistol knockdown stage is written. The stage writer probably chose his wording carefully. It may not be your cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong. I'm very careful how I use the words hit, engage and knock down when writing stages.

 

 

It's Stoopid 'cuz it's a P trap...guarantteeeeed.

 

:FlagAm:

 

 

Yep.

Most around here don't wait to see if it falls. They have already

moved on and are shooting 2 & 3 by the time one falls.

Even if it falls fast. They have moved on to the next target the instant

the trigger is pulled.

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"Knock Downs must fall in order engaged" is not stupid to me. Any more than a Texas star or swinger target.

 

The club I shoot with has this fairly often and it just adds variety to the stages to me.

 

Last fall I saw the stage writer put about 6 hits on #1, a stubborn KD, before he could go to #2. It was fair because it was the same target for everyone at the match and the stubborn KD was not replaced to make it easy for others.

 

If all that matters is how fast you can hit a target every stage would be 10-10-4 on a dump target.

 

By the way, I do not write stages or shoot very fast but I do enjoy trying the difficult stages as well as the fast ones. I like a challenge occasionally.

 

Clemsum,

 

It's not the same for everyone. The knockdown shotgun in order engaged absolutely favors a '97 shooter over a double shooter.

 

Pistol knockdowns that must go down before the next target is engaged absolutely favors the slower shooters. A shooter who normally shoots b,b,b,b,boom will have to shot boom,boom,boom,boom,boom to make sure each target is going down before pulling the trigger on the next target. A shooter who already shoots slow doesn't have to slow down at all.

 

Not the same for everyone and not fun to me.

 

And by the way, I do write stages, I do shoot fast, and I still enjoy challenging stages. In fact, I probably enjoy stages that are much more challenging than your average shooter, but challenging isn't the same as stupid.

 

I hate STUPID.

 

Possum

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Clubs that require every shooter to use a club supplied loading block to load rifles and pistols. This requires me to bring my loading strip to the loading table, unload it into the club provided loading block and then into my guns.

 

Clubs that do not allow one to load the shotgun during movement provided the action remains open.

 

Clubs that do not allow an unfired shotgun round to be ejected from the gun. This requires any loaded round must be fired.

 

Clubs that do not allow movement of any kind with a drawn pistol.

 

Any club rule that is not posted for visitors to see or briefed at the safety meeting, this includes any differences with SASS rules.

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Clubs that require every shooter to use a club supplied loading block to load rifles and pistols. This requires me to bring my loading strip to the loading table, unload it into the club provided loading block and then into my guns.

 

Clubs that do not allow one to load the shotgun during movement provided the action remains open.

 

Clubs that do not allow an unfired shotgun round to be ejected from the gun. This requires any loaded round must be fired.

 

Clubs that do not allow movement of any kind with a drawn pistol.

 

Any club rule that is not posted for visitors to see or briefed at the safety meeting, this includes any differences with SASS rules.

I have to agree with you on these, I've been to these clubs only once, once only. MT

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As in the given scenario below, clubs that do such odd things do a disservice to their shooters when those shooters go to another club or match that adhere to SASS rules.

 

people like shotgun targets in "any order" because it one, allows them to engage the targets in the manner that suits them best and two, eliminates the possibility of a shooter getting an undeserved P in the scenario below. Of course if you "engage" S1 and either miss it or do not get enough shot on it to make it fall and then shoot at and knock down S2 you have still engaged the targets in the correct order. Requiring a shooter to knock down one before engaging the next is nothing more than a P trap.

 

 

Yep, One of the clubs I shoot at has a stupid rule, well several. This on is shotgun knock downs have to be shot in a given order. If say #1 doesn't go down you can't shoot #2 until #1 is down. Could be the same club you are talking about. Now that really slows down a double. Just don't understand some match directors thinking.

A good club says in any order and make up in any order. Oh well.

Wyandot

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There are stoopid club rules, and there are stoopid stages.

If you shoot at a club that has both ....you might be stoopid. :lol:

 

 

 

Or just desperate to shoot. ;)

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The original post offers us some "weird" pistol target rules I would hazard to guess were designed to almost guarantee their local hotdogs win every match. They defy the normal way we play and practice, and would seriously slow down anybody not used to em......

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Clemsum,

 

It's not the same for everyone. The knockdown shotgun in order engaged absolutely favors a '97 shooter over a double shooter.

Yep, really tough on the BP shooter also

 

Pistol knockdowns that must go down before the next target is engaged absolutely favors the slower shooters. A shooter who normally shoots b,b,b,b,boom will have to shot boom,boom,boom,boom,boom to make sure each target is going down before pulling the trigger on the next target. A shooter who already shoots slow doesn't have to slow down at all.

Yep again, really hurts the BP shooter also. I don't really care for pistol or rifle KDs unless you can make up misses with the shotgun, same with the Texas star.

Not the same for everyone and not fun to me.

 

And by the way, I do write stages, I do shoot fast, and I still enjoy challenging stages. In fact, I probably enjoy stages that are much more challenging than your average shooter, but challenging isn't the same as stupid.

Well.... :huh: I do write stages, but I don't shoot fast :lol:

 

I hate STUPID.

Yep, don't like rules that are not SASS rules......no loading SG on the move......can't shuck a live shotshell (never heard of that one) :wacko: .......pistols on loading table untill called to the line (never seen that one).......ROs that like to chat before the beep, give me a "when ready say the line"....."stand by"....BEEP!! :)

Possum

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Hi Folks,

 

This is not a club rule anywhere I've shot. It is just an exchange (with an active deputy sheriff) that I thought was incongrous.

 

He, a double shooter, loaded two to get one down and shucked the live one on the ground. I picked it up and tossed it to him at the ULT. He reprimanded me for tossing it as it could have gone off if he dropped it. :blink:

 

If that is a real concern, then the clubs that penalize shucking live rounds have a point. Of course, then you would need to have a penalty for ejecting any live rounds. We all know that this happens with rifle rounds on occasion.

 

Where did this idea come from? It's either unsafe or it's not. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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There are stoopid club rules, and there are stoopid stages.

If you shoot at a club that has both ....you might be stoopid. :lol:

 

 

 

Or just desperate to shoot. ;)

Aye, true dat!

 

As is the SASS rule regarding double shotgun barrels being up AND the action open. Frankly, for me, it seems that someone's just wanting to punish double shooters 'cause they were far more convienent to be carried draped over the forearm. I had a lady scream at me once (before plain stupidity became embedded in stone with the enactment of this rule), about how my barrels were pointed at her feet. I gotta admit... I told her not to stand so close. Ok, well I didn't use those exact words.

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Hi Folks,

 

This is not a club rule anywhere I've shot. It is just an exchange (with an active deputy sheriff) that I thought was incongrous.

 

He, a double shooter, loaded two to get one down and shucked the live one on the ground. I picked it up and tossed it to him at the ULT. He reprimanded me for tossing it as it could have gone off if he dropped it. :blink:

 

If that is a real concern, then the clubs that penalize shucking live rounds have a point. Of course, then you would need to have a penalty for ejecting any live rounds. We all know that this happens with rifle rounds on occasion.

 

Where did this idea come from? It's either unsafe or it's not. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Allie, it's a theoretical possibility without a statistical probability. In other words, IF ya have a range with pointy rocks and if the shell landed perfectly so the primer struck a rock and if that hit was sufficient to set it off, yeah, ya got a small explosion. Now heft a shotsell or loaded rifle round and you tell me where the weight is, and which end is the light end, the "tail of the kite" that will naturally wanna follow rather than lead in flight. I would venture to say you could eject or toss live rounds from now until yer little arms fell off and not get one to go pop unless ya really, really tried, like pitching it full speed against a bed of nails.

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Allie, it's a theoretical possibility without a statistical probability. In other words, IF ya have a range with pointy rocks and if the shell landed perfectly so the primer struck a rock and if that hit was sufficient to set it off, yeah, ya got a small explosion. Now heft a shotsell or loaded rifle round and you tell me where the weight is, and which end is the light end, the "tail of the kite" that will naturally wanna follow rather than lead in flight. I would venture to say you could eject or toss live rounds from now until yer little arms fell off and not get one to go pop unless ya really, really tried, like pitching it full speed against a bed of nails.

Not to be argumentative AJ, but might that stastistical probability be increased in a direct inverse porpotion to the amount of the shooter's vertical challenge?

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Maybe thats one for MythBusters Allie Mo!!!!

 

Kinda like when they did the one on bullets in a burning trash can.

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Rule are rules, clubs to each their own, maybe that's why we have an hour before the match to study up on those club rules eh.

My rule is, if I don't get a hello or a thank you, I have a good time anyway. :)

MS

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Allie, it's a theoretical possibility without a statistical probability. In other words, IF ya have a range with pointy rocks and if the shell landed perfectly so the primer struck a rock and if that hit was sufficient to set it off, yeah, ya got a small explosion. Now heft a shotsell or loaded rifle round and you tell me where the weight is, and which end is the light end, the "tail of the kite" that will naturally wanna follow rather than lead in flight. I would venture to say you could eject or toss live rounds from now until yer little arms fell off and not get one to go pop unless ya really, really tried, like pitching it full speed against a bed of nails.

 

As unlikely as it may be, I've seen it happen at a shoot with a 38 tossed out of a rifle. Hit the gravel and went off, while everyone looked around a little confused as to where the extra "pop" came from. With an unconfined round going off, the brass is more dangerous than the bullet, we found the case and it was blown open. Worst it would have done is give a nasty cut though.

 

Not saying there should be rules against it, personally if I have a live round left in my double and another gun to shoot, I'll shuck the live round on the ground and go.

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... I picked it up and tossed it to him at the ULT. He reprimanded me for tossing it as it could have gone off if he dropped it....

 

I have personally witnessed a 38 that was dropped on asphalt, gone off.

 

A piece of brass shrapnel drew blood from a 2nd cowpoke's check. About a 1" higher it would have been his eye.

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Hi Folks,

 

This is not a club rule anywhere I've shot. It is just an exchange (with an active deputy sheriff) that I thought was incongrous.

 

He, a double shooter, loaded two to get one down and shucked the live one on the ground. I picked it up and tossed it to him at the ULT. He reprimanded me for tossing it as it could have gone off if he dropped it. :blink:

 

If that is a real concern, then the clubs that penalize shucking live rounds have a point. Of course, then you would need to have a penalty for ejecting any live rounds. We all know that this happens with rifle rounds on occasion.

 

Where did this idea come from? It's either unsafe or it's not. :unsure:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

What's the difference in him shucking a live round on the ground and the possibality of him dropping it when you tossed it to him?

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I have personally witnessed a 38 that was dropped on asphalt, gone off.

 

A piece of brass shrapnel drew blood from a 2nd cowpoke's check. About a 1" higher it would have been his eye.

So, why would he shuck a live round if it is dangerous? Matthew, darlin', you really took that one out of context.

 

What's the difference in him shucking a live round on the ground and the possibality of him dropping it when you tossed it to him?

Yep, that is the incongrous part!

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Not a "stupid club rule", but one day I would like to start a portfolio on the many different ways, "Cowboy Port Arms" is executed, and allowed by different clubs. MT

 

As I recall in the military, Port Arms would mean the rifle was on the same plane as the firing line. One of my first matches we were supposed to start with the rifle at Port Arms. I held the rifle close to Port Arms and got in trouble. I said close to Port Arms as it seemed stupid to hold the rifle that way at a match.

 

Colorado Lightning

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