Grizzly Dave Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 So since I'm not going to Winter Range, thought I'd poke around the website anyway and see what there was to see. In the Stage Conventions and Match Conduct PDF file, it says the following... Ringing and Coning / Crimping Shotgun Shells: The process of scoring shotgun shell hulls with a sharp blade is known as “ringing”, and shall be considered as illegal ammunition. Shotgun shells that have been coned or crimped to a smaller gauge shall also be considered as illegal ammunition. I can understand the advantage of crimping down, but what exactly is "ringing" and what does it do for you? Never heard of it, just curious. Grizz
Ben Scalped Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Hey Grizz, I also have not seen it done that I know of. The way it was explained to me you can cut a ring around a shotgun shell with a sharp knive and when fired the shell will seperatenwhere it is cut and you hit the target with shell,shot,wad, and everything. Shure should take down a difficult KD. Anyway that's what I was told. Ben Scalped
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 So since I'm not going to Winter Range, thought I'd poke around the website anyway and see what there was to see. In the Stage Conventions and Match Conduct PDF file, it says the following... Ringing and Coning / Crimping Shotgun Shells: The process of scoring shotgun shell hulls with a sharp blade is known as “ringing”, and shall be considered as illegal ammunition. Shotgun shells that have been coned or crimped to a smaller gauge shall also be considered as illegal ammunition. I can understand the advantage of crimping down, but what exactly is "ringing" and what does it do for you? Never heard of it, just curious. Grizz As I understand it's scoring the circumference of the shells so that upon firing half of the hull actually leaves the barrel essentially making it a "slug" of sorts. I guess some use to use such a round on tough knockdowns.
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Seen it more with the old paper shells but it can be done with moderns. You weaken the case by cutting almost through just at the shot cup/over powder wad juncture. The idea is to make a slug out of a birdshot load. When I lived in MS the rabbit hunters with packs of beagles often carried a "ringer" or two in case they jumped a deer. For CAS, it would certainly ensure knocking over any target. Always viewed it as being potentially dangerous especially should it come loose and drift futher on down the barrel.
Grizzly Dave Posted February 2, 2011 Author Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks for the replies. Now I know! Grizz
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Yep - cut around the hull so it makes a slug. Illegal, and definitely worth a SOG Penalty for each such round being carried. And two SOG = one MDQ.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Yep - cut around the hull so it makes a slug. Illegal, and definitely worth a SOG Penalty for each such round being carried. And two SOG = one MDQ. Nice to know that rules can be made up as you go....... Stan
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Honestly, never done it nor seen it. Like Grizzy Dave, I didn't know what it was till about a year ago and the explanations on it. But, in my opinion, it would also greatly ENHANCE the speed of extracting empties from a SxS and possibly enhance the ejection/feeding process on a 97. On a 97, your '2nd' shell (or follow up shell) cannot be fed into the chamber until the first one ejects. If that 1st shell is only 1/2 as long as normal, it would stand to reason that the 2nd shell your throwing into the chamber can be thrown into the port alittle faster. Thats my thinkin. ..........Widder
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Nice to know that rules can be made up as you go....... Stan
C. W. Knight # 47289L Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 I believe that I saw it done in a movie long long ago. I think that the name was Valdez is Comming staring Burt Lancaster as a Mexican. He only had a shotgun and he ringed some shells. He was confronted by a bad guy who left the first encounter as being too close for comfort, and came back at what he thought was a safe distance up the hill and was taken down by the SG at much longer than birdshot range. Maybe I was just dreamin', been a long winter. C-U, C.W.
J.D. Lee Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 When I was a teen, I was crew on a commercial fishing boat in the gulf. We had a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge on board that we used to ring the shells to shoot large sharks that were in our nets. The big sharks would tear the nets out of the hangings, but the ringed shells slowed them down to a stop. J.D. Lee
Yak Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 To what extent is considered scoring? I've seen a couple of folks lightly ringing shells to aid grip or control of them when loading 97s. The shell does not separate when fired. Is this considered illegal?
Gunslinger SASS 10706 Life Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Yak, I think what you are refering to is scuffing. Alot of 97 shooters will scuff up their shells with a piece of sandpaper or scotch brite so they can get a better grip on on them. This is legal.
Ivory Jack, #8534 LTG Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Yep - cut around the hull so it makes a slug. Illegal, and definitely worth a SOG Penalty for each such round being carried. And two SOG = one MDQ. ROl Handbook, page 26 Match Disqualification • Shooting illegal ammunition. This includes ammunition that exceeds the maximum velocity and shotgun shells that have been bottle-neck resized or ringed.
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 From Page 12 of The Handbook: "Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge". "Shotgun shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad and shot column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile". So the practices of "coning" and "ringing" constitute the use of illegal ammunition. From Page 2 of The Handbook: "Two spirit of the game penalties within a match will result in a Match Disqualification". In the SOG Section, it also states that ammunition that doesn't meet velocity or power factor minimums is a SOG penalty, e.g. using illegal ammunition. So by analysis of the rules, the use of illegal ammunition is grounds for SOG penalties to be assessed. Not making anything up at all. Seems pretty obvious if you read the Handbook.
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 From Page 12 of The Handbook: "Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge". "Shotgun shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad and shot column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile". So the practices of "coning" and "ringing" constitute the use of illegal ammunition. From Page 2 of The Handbook: "Two “spirit of the game” penalties within a match will result in a Match Disqualification". In the SOG Section, it also states that ammunition that doesn't meet velocity or power factor minimums is a SOG penalty, e.g. using illegal ammunition. So by analysis of the rules, the use of illegal ammunition is grounds for SOG penalties to be assessed. That's correct, but it is NOT a penalty to carry this ammo. "Illegal, and definitely worth a SOG Penalty for each such round being carried"
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Ivory Jack - Thanx for posting the rule from the RO Handbook. Your post preceeded mine by a few minutes ... got called away while typing. Definitely clarifies the issue with some degree of finality. Goody - just as a general question, why would anyone want to have what they know to be illegal ammo at a match? Certainly not for "show and tell". The only reason for having it would be with the intention of using it. Not very sporting. OK - instead of an SOG, make 'em take it back to their truck or dump it. Unless they do use it. If so ... well, bye.
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 dang near every year I have ben there they find ringed hulls, as they clean up brass and hulls (boy scouts) sure wish they would find the shooter as he shucks em
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 More important than whether it's legal or not is the fact that it's dangerous. The idea is to ring it deep enough so that the hull tears loose and goes down the bore with the shot still in it. A virtual slug. The reason it's dangerous particularly in old shotguns with short forcing cones is you have created a serious constriction which greatly increases pressure. You are risking damage to the gun and bodily harm to you or anyone near you. Don't do it.
Assassin Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 It'd be tough to find the person shooting "ringed" shells @ WR with piles of empty hulls there. I've heard the old timers talk about ringing shells and blowing up barrels. Not a safe practice and I don't really see an advantage. Just carry heavier loads. LL'
BJT Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Uhmmm, so is the whole rule book reproduced or just part? If only part, does that mean the rest of the rules do not apply? Confusing........
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Ivory Jack - Thanx for posting the rule from the RO Handbook. Your post preceeded mine by a few minutes ... got called away while typing. Definitely clarifies the issue with some degree of finality. Goody - just as a general question, why would anyone want to have what they know to be illegal ammo at a match? Certainly not for "show and tell". The only reason for having it would be with the intention of using it. Not very sporting. OK - instead of an SOG, make 'em take it back to their truck or dump it. Unless they do use it. If so ... well, bye. Pard I think you need to READ what Jack posted. It's a MDQ not a SOG penalty to use ringed shotgun shells. There is NO way to interpret it any differently. There is no correlation between using ammo that does not meet the minimum power factor and illegal ammo. The point is to read and apply the rules as written. No more or no less. Stan Stan
BlackhawkPaul Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 A "Ring Load" was done to make a slug out of a shot load by poor people in the olden days. "Ringing the load" meant cutting grooves in the shell casing at specific points above the powder so the whole top with shot load intact took off like a glaser type slug. This would have NO place in CAS. Best know what y'all are doing and better not do this at home. The olden po' folks didn't have tight chokes, etc. on their old trusty shotguns and the old junker "improved cylinder" shotgun was more conducive to having strange loads (how about rocksalt and other weird stuff) clear the barrel. This doesn't even begin to address chamber tolerances, forcing cones, etc. DO NOT TRY THIS! Such a slug could shoot farther than buckshot and the impact would be devastating if some durn fool did it.
Manatee Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 More important than whether it's legal or not is the fact that it's dangerous. The idea is to ring it deep enough so that the hull tears loose and goes down the bore with the shot still in it. A virtual slug. The reason it's dangerous particularly in old shotguns with short forcing cones is you have created a serious constriction which greatly increases pressure. You are risking damage to the gun and bodily harm to you or anyone near you. Don't do it. Bingo. And I'm not too sure how well a light steel shotgun that has a constricted choke or has been back-bored will handle the damage at the muzzle? All in all, if you need a slug, buy a slug and use it in a barrel designed to fire slugs.
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 "Illegal" – adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc. Rounds that don't make power factor or velocity are, by definition, illegal. The penalty is the SOG call. Coned or ringed shotshells are, by definition, illegal. The penalty is the MDQ. Illegal is illegal. And no matter how you try to parse it, using shotshells modified in this fashion is an obvious attempt to gain an advantage that is definitely outside the Spirit of The Game.
Charlie Whiskers Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Ok....a different question on the rule book along the same subject line.I know a few people that make 2 1/2 inch 12 ga shells by cutting down a 2 3/4 so they can load 6 in a 97 for Wild Bunch.Is that considered Illegal ammuntion?To be honest,I'd never heard of doing either til recently.
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Ok....a different question on the rule book along the same subject line.I know a few people that make 2 1/2 inch 12 ga shells by cutting down a 2 3/4 so they can load 6 in a 97 for Wild Bunch.Is that considered Illegal ammuntion?To be honest,I'd never heard of doing either til recently. Sure it's legal. There has been factory loaded 2 1/2" ammo in the past.
Charlie Whiskers Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Sure it's legal. There has been factory loaded 2 1/2" ammo in the past. I know they USED to make 2 1/2 inch shells years ago,but since they don't anymore I wasn't sure if it would be legal.Thanks for your reply.
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 B&P makes a good 2 5/8 inch 12 gauge load, very useful in 97s for Wild Bunch: http://bandpusa.com/competition/f2-subsound.html Also useful in short-chambered older guns. Aguila even makes 2 1 7/8 inch 12 gauge shells. All of these are quite legal. I really don't seen how you confuse a short shotgun shell (perfectly safe) or even a trimmed length shotgun shell (also very legal), with a shell designed to blow apart and send half of the hull out the barrel with the shot, which is clearly unsafe, and has been declared illegal in our game. Good luck, GJ
Curly Red Ryder Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 From Page 12 of The Handbook: "Shotgun shells shall not be sized down by the use of any die not manufactured for the specific gauge". "Shotgun shell shall not be scored (ringed) as to cause the shot-shell case, wad and shot column to be shot from the firearm as one projectile". The important in that rule is the "to be shot from the firearm ans one projectile". So if you score the hull at the top close to the crimping, the load will not be shot as "one projectile", and in some SxS it is more easy to "eject" the hulls as part of the crimping is going out with the load and do not "lock" in the chamber BUT NOT ACTS AS A ONE PROJECTILE. Some times ago, I asked about such a modification of the cartridge to PWB his answer was to try on a cardboard ao a newspaper wheet at 7/8 yards. If you obtain a single hole, so you had "one projectile" and it's strictly forbidden, if you have da spreding of the shots on the "target", it's allowed. By the way, in plastic cartridges with plastic wad, I noticed frequently it's more the wad than the load who hit an dowb the target!
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 I was thinking the B&Ps were 2 and 1/2 inchers. Pretty sure the Aguilas are only 1 and 1/2 inch.
Long Branch Louie Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 If ya hit where ya supposed to, ya don't need ringed shells.....
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 If ya hit where ya supposed to, ya don't need ringed shells..... ............ hmmmmmmmmmmmm .... interesting point
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 Howdy I remember when this whole topic first came up a year or two ago. I had never heard of either 'ringing' or 'coning' of shotgun shells at that point. When I heard about this, I was amazed, once again, at the levels some shooters will go to to gain a little bit of an advantage.
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