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RANK POINT SCORING


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Come now, Phantom.

 

Preference is just that. There is no logic to preference, just opinion.

 

People prefer all sorts of things that others think are not logical.

 

I face that every day. I am married. It is easy to live with and I am happy.

 

WB prefers Rank Points. Live with it and be happy. It could be a lot worse !

 

And does it really matter?

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OK,then. Some real smart rank point supporter expailn this to me (so it makes sense) and I'll not mention it again

 

 

Shooter "A" enters a 10 stage match, shoots 6 stages really well, breaks all his guns in a temper tantrum and does not shoot the next 4 stages. ie, don't finish the race.

 

Shooter "B" middle of the pack type shooter, but finishes all 10 stages.

 

Shooter "A" places above shooter "B" in the overall by rank, but not by time.

 

WHY?????????

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Simple..................shooter "A" accumulated fewer rank points in six stages (even with the maximum rank points issued for the last four stages) than shooter "B" did in 10.

 

It simply means that shooter "A" is a much better shooter than shooter "B".

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Come now, Phantom.

 

Preference is just that. There is no logic to preference, just opinion.

 

People prefer all sorts of things that others think are not logical.

 

I face that every day. I am married. It is easy to live with and I am happy.

 

WB prefers Rank Points. Live with it and be happy. It could be a lot worse !

 

And does it really matter?

 

 

Yes it matters. My Dad told me once that a bad idea or design, no matter how hard or long you work on it, is still a bad idea or design.

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Simple..................shooter "A" accumulated fewer rank points in six stages (even with the maximum rank points issued for the last four stages) than shooter "B" did in 10.

 

It simply means that shooter "A" is a much better shooter than shooter "B".

 

And this is a good scoring system, how????

 

"A" did not finish the "game". Kinda like Phantom said earlier, maybe we need to start having awards for each category for each stage, then rank points would make sense, at least to me.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

And this is a good scoring system, how????

 

"A" did not finish the "game". Kinda like Phantom said earlier, maybe we need to start having awards for each category for each stage, then rank points would make sense, at least to me.

 

This is easily corrected by the match director and can be explained to all who would otherwise think that 7 innings is a ball game. Make a quick mention at the shooters meeting that this is a 10 stage match and those that do not complete all 10 stages will not be considered. Yes this means a stage DQ is also a MDQ other than you get to keep shooting with your friends... (where is that rules committee when ya need them? Probably wondering if we should allow loaded unloaded guns or sumthin :wacko: )

 

I am not a rank supporter per se so this may not satisfy you but I am not so cornfused as to sit and make up all the different scenarios that could happen in a scoring method. I went to a match where all of the top shooters were in the 49'r and Senior categories except one very fast feller who signed up as a Wrangler. The Wrangler category had 3-4 beginner types shooting and after a SDQ the fast shooter still won his category :huh: This was a total time match and it shouldn't have happened, but since this only happens in Rank matches nobody noticed ;)

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I score Winter Range with Rank Points. You don't have to ask why. I don't really have a problem with it EXCEPT that if a mistake is made in the scoring and we find it, we have to check the entire match results again carefully because someone's score affects others .i.e their rank points change. While this is a rare occurance, the possiblity exists.

 

With Total Time this never happens. Your score is your score. If I make a mistake, I add or subtract to your score and compare within your category if a change occurs it does affect anyone outside your category.

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[snip]

I had a little more trouble initially with Bud's observation that the same penalty could produce a different result (rank points) between two shooters on the same stage under rank scoring. Again, Bud is correct. But, on the other hand that would reward the shooter who's a little faster and a bit farther ahead of the performance curve on that stage. Bottom line again is who won or lost more gunfights on that stage-the essence of rank scoring.

[snip]

Actually, there is no clear way to tell who this particular feature of rank points will "reward".

 

Let's take, for instance, stage 4 of a match held by the Random Regulators. Stage 4 is a particularly long stage, with movement, props, and many transitions. The Random Regulators score their matches with rank points. One of the consequences of combining rank point scoring with stages like stage 4 is that you will have a very large spread between first place and last place, as well as a widely spread distribution of all times in between. Now, what happens when there is a penalty, which is in seconds, is applied in a match which is scored in rank points?

 

It depends on where you are in the distribution. If there are a lot of other shooters within say, ten seconds of you and you get a MSV, you're going to get a lot of rank points. If there's nobody within ten seconds of you, do you know what the penalty is? Nothing. No penalty for a safety violation because there didn't happen to be any other shooters in your part of the distribution on that stage.

 

What's more, if you are shooting at the upper end of the distribution and you manage to win a stage by 10.01 seconds, you don't get any penalty in rank points for a MSV. So now, in our very realistic gunfights, it's okay to be unsafe if we can win by enough. While I appreciate the appeal of gunfight simulations, safety should be first.

 

The issue of different categories having an effect on one another is also affected by the distribution patterns. Certain categories distribute differently on different stage types, and so stage writing can have a huge effect on how score distributions affect the match as well. While these last issues are in fact simply preference, they are not issues in total time at all.

 

The big point that I was trying to make, the one that I would think would be considered logical and correct by all, is that there really isn't any good excuse for having different penalties for the same safety infractions on the same stage. There especially isn't any good excuse for having no penalty for safety infractions on a stage. This is a problem which does not exist in total time scoring, where penalties are assessed in the same units that the scores are measured in.

 

Badlands Bud

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I'll try to ask the question another way.

 

Is Cowboy Action Shooting a game of:

 

1. Speed target shooting with cowboy type guns?

 

or

 

2. A fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight?

 

 

Could it be that the Total Time / Rank Point debate is really a debate on which game is being played?

 

Each Game would seem to need separate scoring systems, as (#1) would only need to measure an individual shooter, whereas (#2)

would, in addition, need to measure competitor interaction with the individual shooter.

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:lol:

I'll try to ask the question another way.

 

Is Cowboy Action Shooting a game of:

 

1. Speed target shooting with cowboy type guns?

 

or

 

2. A fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight?

 

 

Could it be that the Total Time / Rank Point debate is really a debate on which game is being played?

 

Each Game would seem to need separate scoring systems, as (#1) would only need to measure an individual shooter, whereas (#2)

would, in addition, need to measure competitor interaction with the individual shooter.

 

Both!

 

No, no need for seperate scoring systems. The shooter can make up his own scoring system back home and then go down to the corner bar and tell everyone down there that care, how well he did at the big match. :lol:

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I'll try to ask the question another way.

 

Is Cowboy Action Shooting a game of:

 

1. Speed target shooting with cowboy type guns?

 

or

 

2. A fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight?

 

 

Could it be that the Total Time / Rank Point debate is really a debate on which game is being played?

 

Each Game would seem to need separate scoring systems, as (#1) would only need to measure an individual shooter, whereas (#2)

would, in addition, need to measure competitor interaction with the individual shooter.

 

 

 

 

If option #2 listed above, the only way to play that game would be a head-to-head competition with knockdown plates, with a round-robin single elimination type scoring. Then there is no score. You either advance to the next round or you're out.

 

 

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I have two words for you,

 

 

1. CAS

 

and

 

2. Re-enactment

 

Only one of em is scored, and this may hold a clue, it is scored with a TIMER.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

I'll try to ask the question another way.

 

Is Cowboy Action Shooting a game of:

 

1. Speed target shooting with cowboy type guns?

 

or

 

2. A fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight?

 

 

Could it be that the Total Time / Rank Point debate is really a debate on which game is being played?

 

Each Game would seem to need separate scoring systems, as (#1) would only need to measure an individual shooter, whereas (#2)

would, in addition, need to measure competitor interaction with the individual shooter.

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I'll try to ask the question another way.

 

Is Cowboy Action Shooting a game of:

 

1. Speed target shooting with cowboy type guns?

 

or

 

2. A fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight?

 

 

Could it be that the Total Time / Rank Point debate is really a debate on which game is being played?

 

Each Game would seem to need separate scoring systems, as (#1) would only need to measure an individual shooter, whereas (#2)

would, in addition, need to measure competitor interaction with the individual shooter.

Two answer your first question, I don't know which it is. We should ask the guys who own the sport. If I could make some observations though:

 

1. Cowboy Shooting certainly involves shooting, at targets, with cowboy guns, and the shooter with the lowest score wins, so speed is certainly a part of it.

 

2. Let's bring on board this belief that CAS is a fantasy attempt to safely simulate a western gunfight. Is it correct to score such a competition in such a way as to have different shooters in the same "gunfight" get different penalties for the same infractions? Is it more correct to score such a competition in such a way as to have some shooters in the same "gunfight" get no penalty for some infractions? What would you think of a shooting sport which has safety violations which are sometimes penalties, sometimes not, and even when they are penalties, you don't ever really know how much the penalty for each safety infraction is until you compile all of the scores?

 

Now, perhaps you're saying that it's just my preference that safety infractions always incur the same penalty. I could even suspend my disbelief that far. But when it's possible to get no penalty at all after committing a safety infraction, I really do believe there is something wrong with the scoring system being used. If that's just my preference, well I'll just say that I prefer to see the safety rules enforced, and I prefer to shoot matches where others hold that same preference.

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The recuuring problem with this issue, IMHO, is not what the rank point scoring does for the eventual winner. But, rather, what happens to all shooters in the match. Those that shot an excellent match, BUT, got tripped up somewhere during the match, and earned a pentaly, or had a misfire, or had a gun break, etc. Any thing like this happens to you during a match, especially at a rank point match and yer goose is cooked. And rather unfairly, because you drop more places than the total time match would have taken you, most of the drop will occur on a fast stage. This is where all the shooters are bunched up tight. This, I think, is what puts a bad taste in yer mouth fer rank point matches. It takes the wind out of yer sails pard. I mean it makes for a long ride home. And this feeling happens to alot of shooters, and their day in the sun just got rained on.

Granted, this holds true in timed events too. But, it depends on the circumstances. And rank point scoring is just, well, not very kind, it take the control of your match, out of yer hands. And, I for one, don't think thats fair. It's like a procedural trap. That's not fair either, it's not the cowboy way.

Any other argument has already been made.

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Any time the subject comes up, there are a lot more folks that dislike rank point scoring than like it. Maybe it is time to put it on the agenda for a vote by the TGs. If rank point scoring is then defeated by the TGs, and SASS over rules it, it would prove that SASS does not really want to listen to it's members. Maybe that it why the issue has never been on the agenda for a formal vote at least since I have been a member.

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Any time the subject comes up, there are a lot more folks that dislike rank point scoring than like it. Maybe it is time to put it on the agenda for a vote by the TGs. If rank point scoring is then defeated by the TGs, and SASS over rules it, it would prove that SASS does not really want to listen to it's members. Maybe that it why the issue has never been on the agenda for a formal vote at least since I have been a member.

It has been rejected as an agenda item by the WB in the past. I believe the version that they rejected only called for all matches to be allowed to choose between the two scoring methods, including state and above.

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As far as logical reasons in favor of rank points...I'm drawing a blank.

 

Badlands Bud

 

 

There ya go again being all logical and such.

 

We agree, the only thing that matters is the timer.

 

I believe that anything else is T-ball.

 

Olen

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Maybe, just maybe, if all those that dont like the rank point system, got together and BOYCOTTED a match because of it USING the rank points system, and let it be KNOWN that that is WHY you did, then you might FINALLY be heard. This back and forth on the wire, while making for some fun reading, does NOTHING. But feel free to keep up the posting, as wire fighting IS what this place is all about....aint it?

hud (hows THAT for BRILLIANT charlie?)

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I have never shot a match based on total time. I get to do that this May. I have been beaten many times by someone who was slower but has better rank points. We had a shooter recently who shot four stages and left. He still beat me by RANK points. When you shoot where I shoot in the pack, the only differnece is bragging points and that hurts. YES I AM SHOUTING, I HAVE FUN.

 

We had our 5 club annual meeting yesterday and this was a subject of discussion. I won't get my CC until the 3rd or 4th week in the month. I did not know this was on the wire again.

 

Bud, if you ever come over to Virginia, stop by on the third Saturday and shoot with us. Or, if you come on the fourth, you can shoot with Cockroach and me. Great English thar. I'll loan you guns, just bring your gun belt, mine would fit you about 2 times.

 

Shenny

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Oh Hud,

 

I wish I could. Here's the deal for me. If I get to go to a match that has RP scoring, I'm so happy to go that I wouldn't dream of boycotting due to the scoring method.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks rank points stink based on logical arguments, not personal preference" Mo

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This is easily corrected by the match director and can be explained to all who would otherwise think that 7 innings is a ball game. Make a quick mention at the shooters meeting that this is a 10 stage match and those that do not complete all 10 stages will not be considered. Yes this means a stage DQ is also a MDQ other than you get to keep shooting with your friends... (where is that rules committee when ya need them? Probably wondering if we should allow loaded unloaded guns or sumthin :wacko: )

 

I am not a rank supporter per se so this may not satisfy you but I am not so cornfused as to sit and make up all the different scenarios that could happen in a scoring method. I went to a match where all of the top shooters were in the 49'r and Senior categories except one very fast feller who signed up as a Wrangler. The Wrangler category had 3-4 beginner types shooting and after a SDQ the fast shooter still won his category :huh: This was a total time match and it shouldn't have happened, but since this only happens in Rank matches nobody noticed ;)

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Just asking? Wouldn't a T.T. match and with a SDQ adding 999sec. to total time,really be eliminated from placing in any category? :huh:

 

The recommended penalty for a SDQ at a total time match is 150 seconds plus 5 seconds for each shot on the stage. a 10-10-4 stage would be 270 seconds.

 

If I earn 270 seconds in penalties and still come out on top in my category based on total time then guess what.......I performed better then the other shooters in my category.

 

Same principle applies in a rank point match but the difference is that the amount of time added is substantially more so you have guys with Total Times in the thousands beating guys with much better total times and it looks really weird.

 

Stan

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One of my Pards that shoots the same class as me (Duelist)and 3 weeks younger than me , We are running neck and neck ... on stage 3 an empty case falls in to the action of my staged Marlin 94 ,I am awarded a MSV.... getting me 60 Rank points..... My pard has a empty case fall into the open action of his Winnie 92 and is awarded a MSV..... Getting 3 rank points ...... At the end of the match I beat him by 33 seconds in total time !!!

Both have shot all the badies with no misses, both picked up Rank points for an empty case falling into an open staged gun,,,,,,,

 

He places 3rd. and I get 4th. I placed ahead of him on all 10 stages by the timer,,,,,,, So I shot faster and with greater consitancy than him ,,,, But he beats me,,,, why because other shooters(not Duelists)desided the weight or value of the MSV ...

 

And at the awards ,,,,,, He says "What" how did I beat you .....

 

 

Good Pard ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, STUPID SYSTEM !!!!!!!!!

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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For clarification for scoring a Stage DQ

 

From the R.O. I book, page 24

 

If overall time is used, a maximum allowed time for each stage should be calculated prior to the match to be used as the disqualification score and maximum stage score. It is recommended the maximum time allowed for a stage be a total of all the available miss penalties plus 30 seconds.

 

So for a 10-10-4 stage with 24 possible misses, that would be 24 X5 = 120 Plus the 30 seconds for a total of 150 seconds. I've seen some shooters shoot a stage, have a few misses, and have a higher score than that, but it is pretty rare.

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As Bud has mentioned, rank scoring can essentially "expand" the scores for a stage or "contract" them.

 

In a fast stage with rank scoring, a slight advantage can mean several rank points, depending on the distribution of times.

 

Similarly, depending on the distribution, a miss or MSV may have almost not impact, if the shooter is shooting much faster than others near them.

 

Sometimes that is good, sometimes not.

 

Rank can have the result that a mistake will vary in cost differently . That part is essentially realistic for a gun fight. If you miss a close target, the close target may not miss you. Sort of like a football game, if you fumble at mid-field, it normally isn't quite as bad as fumbling near an end zone.

 

One "advantage" total time, is that winning a fast stage can be essentially meaningless. That can be discouraging.

 

Similarly, with rank a SDQ may have much impact for a shooter in the lower portion of the score sheet. That can be discouraging as folks have well expressed.

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For clarification for scoring a Stage DQ

 

From the R.O. I book, page 24

 

 

 

So for a 10-10-4 stage with 24 possible misses, that would be 24 X5 = 120 Plus the 30 seconds for a total of 150 seconds. I've seen some shooters shoot a stage, have a few misses, and have a higher score than that, but it is pretty rare.

 

Marauder,thanks for the clarification and reread the Scoring segment on RO1 p.24. B)

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Maybe, just maybe, if all those that dont like the rank point system, got together and BOYCOTTED a match because of it USING the rank points system, and let it be KNOWN that that is WHY you did, then you might FINALLY be heard.

 

And, maybe, just maybe we would get a healthy amount of "special attention" at the next WR or EOT we attended as well. No thanks.

 

Hud, my brother, the fire in my viens doesn't burn quite as hot these days but I can still remember when we were vocal over that whole W3G deal. I just don't have the energy to make any more political statements.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

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Thanks

 

It seems my question moved some of the debate away from numerical analysis and fairness to opinion and preference.

 

The debate is really about preference not fairness, I believe. And everyones preference is equal. In preference there is no right or wrong.

That is why there has been no resolution to the debate.

 

 

I seem to recall several years back that SASS formally stated that their game was a fantasy Game about Western Gunfights.

 

All scenarios for SASS Stages seem to be about gunfights in movies, TV shows or history. A fantasy?

 

How that is measured in a target shooting sport is a challenge.

 

Maybe neither current method of scoring is appropriate.

 

What would be a better method than either Total Time or Rank Points?

 

Why is SASS staying with Rank Points?

 

The WB is sometimes stubborn, but not stupid.

 

Perhaps they do not know of anything better to meet the objective of their game.

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Thanks

 

It seems my question moved some of the debate away from numerical analysis and fairness to opinion and preference.

 

The debate is really about preference not fairness, I believe. And everyones preference is equal. In preference there is no right or wrong.

That is why there has been no resolution to the debate.

 

 

I seem to recall several years back that SASS formally stated that their game was a fantasy Game about Western Gunfights.

 

All scenarios for SASS Stages seem to be about gunfights in movies, TV shows or history. A fantasy?

 

How that is measured in a target shooting sport is a challenge.

 

Maybe neither current method of scoring is appropriate.

 

What would be a better method than either Total Time or Rank Points?

 

Why is SASS staying with Rank Points?

 

The WB is sometimes stubborn, but not stupid.

 

Perhaps they do not know of anything better to meet the objective of their game.

 

I think the question of whether this is a Preferrence issue exists only in your mind...But you refuse to actknowledge that there are good ways to measure performance and there are bad ways...you WANT to think that it's just about preferences.

 

You think that the WB can't make stupid decisions???? Pullllease...

 

One or Two of the WB like Rank Points because this scoring method keeps the winners "Secret" until the awards...yep...believe it or not, that's why they like it.

 

:wacko:

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And, maybe, just maybe we would get a healthy amount of "special attention" at the next WR or EOT we attended as well. No thanks.

 

Hud, my brother, the fire in my viens doesn't burn quite as hot these days but I can still remember when we were vocal over that whole W3G deal. I just don't have the energy to make any more political statements.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

Yea, same here Dan. I put on an earlier post, I really dont care which way they wanna score it. But, if these young guys wanna pick up our flame, someone needs to show them the way, just a little bit.

hud (geezer)

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

If I earn 270 seconds in penalties and still come out on top in my category based on total time then guess what.......I performed better then the other shooters in my category.

 

Stan

 

I still contend that this isn't true because the penalty only allowed the completion of 9 of the 10 stages... 9 stages doesn't make a full match. It's a DNF!! Kinda like walking almost across Utah and claiming you are in Wyoming

 

I always say no new rules but this needs to be officially straightened out!! A SDQ should eliminate a shooter from the awards but allow them to play with their friends. A MDQ means you put your guns away.

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