Assassin Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 The pay is the same. Either scoring method cost you the same amount of $$$$. Scoring method does not determine which shoots I attend. When I started in 1996 the only system used was Rank, we just figured that's the way things were done. LL' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 If you score a match with 2 different methods and come up with 2 different winners by GOD one of em is wrong!!! RRR You are precisely right. How can anyone make the argument that the wrong one is the one that was established as the rule prior to the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 ..it can't be wrong or we wouldn't do it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Its easy shoot faster, shoot straighter, don't make any mistakes, don't have anything break and don't leave an empty in rifle or shotgun. DO THESE THINGS AND YOU TOO SHALL BE CALLED WINNER OR IS THAT WHINER? 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Quote: Coyote Calhoun It slows you down JUST a bit That's funny in itself, more so, since it is said so sincerely. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 The three local clubs on long island all do total time . Plus the Long Island championship ."The Melee on the Bay" is a total time match . Im wondering what most clubs prefer rank or total time . The WB should do a poll and majority wins after all this is America . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Makes figuring out who won prior to the awards near impossible Drum roll please...and the winner is... Wyatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Can we kill tradition like they did traditional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 ...it seems to me that my view(s) on this here topic and those view(s) of the management are somewhat divergent. Once again I find myself at a crossroads; acceptance, compliance, passive noncompliance, willful disagreement, or anarchy. I think I'll go shoot something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bud #15821 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 There is no logic to preference ! If this debate was to be decided by logic or data analysis, it would have been decided long ago. Everyone just seems to be offering their opinion on why their preference is best or more fairer. Cockroach, I disagree with you that the discussion has been only one of opinion and preference, with no logical reasons given on either side. In the many, many, many, many times this issue has been discussed on this forum, there are always a few fact-based, logical complaints which come up. On the Total Time half of the argument there is the fact that rank points dispense variable penalties (a miss could be anywhere between 0 and X rank points with X being the number of shooters at the match minus one) and have a variable resolution (differences measured in seconds have a variable value in rank points throughout the entire match). Keep in mind that this problem also means that different shooters, even on the same stage, may receive different penalties for the same safety infraction when scored with rank points. With total time, every penalty has the same weight in the scores, and every match is scored with a resolution of .01 seconds, that is, the scoring system takes into account differences as small as .o1 seconds (in rank points, a shooter could win a stage by 12 seconds and it would mean nothing different in the scores than winning a stage by .12 seconds). As far as logical reasons in favor of rank points...I'm drawing a blank. Badlands Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake River Clay SASS #34984 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 As far as logical reasons in favor of rank points...I'm drawing a blank. Badlands Bud Bud, Rank Points give the rest of us the illusion that through some quirk in Rank Scoring we can beat you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 We shot for a lot of years without scoring programs and floptop computers,so it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other......But you do have to have the time to calculate the rank. Mink.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Before you go any further, let me first say that I don't care much which scoring method is used. On my single trip to EOT, I could say rank scoring cost me a buckle. I've won other matches on rank where I would have lost on total time. The purpose of this post is to try to explain some of the rationale behind rank scoring. I'm not here to advocate for either, but I will play Devil's advocate with this post; I just want to stimulate the discussion. If there is a single persuasive argument for doing away with rank scoring it would be to silence the bitching by the same people year after year. But,these repetitive posts haven't persuaded the Wild Bunch in the past and seem unlikely to do so in the future. I just show up and shoot. I've never been to a match where the scoring method wasn't announced long before the match. That affords the shooter a couple of options; he can skip the match, he can shoot the match in the style that fits the scoring method and he can accept his result gracefully or look for an excuse for not winning or finishing better. I think it was Wyatt Earp (if not I'm sure someone will correct me) who once characterized a gunfight as shooting fast deliberately. The argument for rank scoring is that you are in a gunfight with every other shooter on every stage; the shooter winning the most gunfights wins the match. The total time advocate is essentially arguing that if he won a previous or subsequent gunfight by a large time margin, he should be able to carry some of that time over into other gunfights against other shooters. Or,one could compare a match to a racing series and the stages of the match to the individual races of the racing series. Let's say NASCAR has a six race series and Jeff Gordon wins the first race by 12 seconds over Dale Junior, who finishes second. Then Junior wins the remaining five faces with Gordon finishing third in each, but never more than 1.5 seconds behind Junior. If you like total time Gordon should be your champion, under a rank point system it's Dale Jr. Badlands Bud's observation that various penalties have different effects on different stages is correct. Different stages ARE different and how all of the other shooters perform on any given stage is the measure of your performance on any given stage in rank scoring. Say you have a 10-10-2 stand and deliver on one huge target stage (Yuck) and you start with gun in hand. You really don't want to miss on that stage because most shooters are going to shoot this stage fast and clean, but YOU KNOW THAT! A champion shooter friend of mine refers to stages like this as "sucker stages." Some shooters, knowing the times will be fast, push too hard and overrun their ability and/or equipment, and the result is a bobble or miss. The smart shooters will pull back just enough to be sure not to screw up or miss. In fact, it's the longer, more difficult stages where the times will spread out more where the faster shooters can take a little more risk and shoot closer to the edge. What Bud offers as a criticism of rank scoring is actually just a good illustration of the difference between the two, a one second difference in time on a blazeingly fast stage will have more effect than that same one second on a much longer, slower stage; I'm not sure that that is a problem. The fact is that you just lost a lot more gunfights on that stage by getting beaten by a lot more people. I had a little more trouble initially with Bud's observation that the same penalty could produce a different result (rank points) between two shooters on the same stage under rank scoring. Again, Bud is correct. But, on the other hand that would reward the shooter who's a little faster and a bit farther ahead of the performance curve on that stage. Bottom line again is who won or lost more gunfights on that stage-the essence of rank scoring. As some others have said, I don't think there is a right or wrong between the two methods just that they are different. Since you know going in how you will be scored, you need to adjust your game Total time favors the blazeingly fast shooter and allows him to cover up for his mistakes. Rank puts more premium on the thinking shooter who shoots fast deliberately, but speed is still needed to win. In all honesty, I know a lot of championship level shooters and and my experience is that they can adjust their shooting to whichever scoring method is being used at a given match and the same people usually win regardless. The fast shooter who can exercise self control and shoot accurately still has the advantage under either method. I'm also happy to say that I have personally never heard a championship level shooter complain about his/her result blaming the scoring method. It's usually the middle of the pack shooter complaining about how someone else got screwed. One final observation, rank scored matches are easy to criticize because the scoring program usually prints the total times with the results, but with a total time match the results usually do not include rank results as well so the differences are more readily apparent at rank point matches. As for me, if it's a good match, I'm going to shoot it and have a good time, regardless of scoring method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Hmmm damn I need a drink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Folks like to try and justify a flawed system...such as trying to justify why a Safety or Procedural on two different stages should carry different penalties... If y'all that like the Rank system want the match to be a bunch of "Gunfights", then award Top Ten Buckles for each category for every stage...since they're to be looked at individually. what's the logic behind the belief that if two competitors are both performing equally...both get a MSV for a spent Hull in the shotgun...and one gets dinged to hell compared to his competition just because he had the dumb luck of leaving his Hull in his shotgun on a slightly faster stage. Yeayeayea...I know...who cares...no Caddi and all...takin all this too seriously. Tell me, do you look at the results of matches? Why??? Ranked is Flawed terribly...even though I know that that's about the only way I'm gunna win an Overall at say...Comin AtCha..is if Rank is used and one of the younger guys has a hickup...yeah...that's how I wanta win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hud Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have given up worryin about this, but ONE thing I find interesting. In all the matches I have shot (since 1997) I dont ever recall a TIE. What would happen in this case? Would they refur to time? And if so, say the tie was 106 rank points each, you go to total time as a tie break, but what if the guy in 3rd place had a better time then 1 or both of the 2 tied for 1st. Guess Im glad Im not a MD, or a Match Director. But, here I go being...what was it Charlie? Oh yea, BRILLIENT hud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harris Hawk Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Rank scoring rewards consistent shooting; overall time rewards speed. Nothing new about that. A slight slip up on rank scoring stage will drop you down in the scoring a lot more than the slip up will in overall time. You can't make it up. Rank scoring is tougher overall but overall time is far easier to score. If misses were penalized at minus 10 points in overall time scoring it would help even out the two methods. I think misses should be penalized in either method at minus 10 but thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I just love this argument. Puts me in mind to make a little comparison; let's see, I hear lots and lots of folks say, "...we love this game they call Cowboy Action Shooting, but... we want to change it... Gee, does that sound like a politican recently raised to high office... "America is the Greatest Nation, help me change it! Or to put it in a period type structure, can we say Carpetbagger? It's that Yankee influence. And I ain't using that label in a negative sense, just descriptive, Yankees are great folks, just like the rest of Americans! {Did that come out right?} But, using that as a type, rather than a locale; they just love to tell how much they love the charm, grace and laid back atmosphere 'round these parts. Then, when they can retire or get a job in "these parts", all they do is complain and bicker about "how much better things worked back home...", etc. Get real... direct your energy toward something important. This isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Younger Requlator Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Rank points score a miss more harshly on a quick stage than a miss on a slower stage. The same with a procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Same Target Same Stage Missed by a shooter using slower to shoot equipment (BLACK POWDER .Hammered Double) The other shooter shooting two handed with a set of .32s, a 97 and a shortstroked 73 ,,,,,,,,, one gets 1 Rank point and the other gets 75 ..... How is it FAIR to do this to the Pard that has chosen The More cowboy way of shooting (bigbore and real loads,and harder to shoot equipment and STYLE)And punish him with 74 more RANK POINTS for the same miss on the same target on the same stage .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 In all the matches I have shot (since 1997) I dont ever recall a TIE. What would happen in this case? Would they refur to time? And if so, say the tie was 106 rank points each, you go to total time as a tie break, but what if the guy in 3rd place had a better time then 1 or both of the 2 tied for 1st. Yep, tie breaker between two tied rank point shooters is usually the total time. It's not hard AT ALL to have ties on rank points, especially up at the top, since top shooters will have less than a hundred points each (in a 12 stage match). It's highly unlikely to have ties on total time among top shooters, because you are comparing five digit numbers (times in the 200-250 second range, with hundredths of seconds to dice down to). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I finally received my Feb copy and read CC's exact words. One should never try to justify preference with a reason. Frustration is the only result. As debate turns into argument. Preference is simply preference. No reason is necessary. Trying to providing a reason is fruitless. CC should have simply said it is the WB's preference is to use Rank Scoring. That's all ! I personally see Rank Points and Total Time as two different Games played with the same basic equipment and rules. With some members preferring one Game over the other Game. As such, no amount of debate (or data analysis) over fairness will have any effect. I play like and play either Game. But I do play them differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Why not have 2 divisions for each category and allow shooters to sign up for either "rank" or "total time" scoring? That way there will be more awards, longer award ceremonies. I was funning! :) MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I believe that we all need a drink... ...The Rank Point System is great and math wise works fair in large matches with 150 or more shooters, otherwise, like monthly matches, it is completely haywire. Just do the math, satisfy your own mind. ...this horse is dead. ...and Okie Sawbones is buying, so everyone belly up to the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fontana Vic, SASS #47940 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Glad somebody finally explained it where I can understand it. Thanks Coyote... I think??? FV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I believe that we all need a drink... ...The Rank Point System is great and math wise works fair in large matches with 150 or more shooters, otherwise, like monthly matches, it is completely haywire. Just do the math, satisfy your own mind. ...this horse is dead. ...and Okie Sawbones is buying, so everyone belly up to the bar. "This horse is dead"...I really hate this stoopid cliche...really... So tell me how great the system works when say a guy has a miss on stage...say stage 1, and still ends up with 1 Rank Point while the middle of the pack guy has a miss and gets tagged with 50 Rank Points...or say you and yer buddy are real competitive shooting about the same times. You have a MSV on Stage 1 and get raped with 100 Rank Points but yer buddy that had the SAME MSV on Stage 3 only gets 40 Rank Points. Yeah...GRRRREAT SYSTEM!!! Consistancy? Pulease! Try and win a overall these days shooting ANYTHING BUT consitant...can't be done! You can't shoot fast enought to miss...just can't be done at the big matches...too many folks right there on yer back...don't matter whether Rank or TT. The WHOLE stoopid point of this debate is to arrive at a better scoring method. Or y'all can hide behind your belief that this is just a "Preferrence"...That's just plain mental laziness...or brown-nosin...you pick. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I've withheld comment until I read the article... Everything is based on time, why dilute that? Rewards consistency? I don't think so, even if that was true, it would only be reflected in over all match finish. Second point on rewarding consistency, rank points very much diminishes a SDQ, how is that rewarding the consistency of those who don't SDQ at all? Tradition? Not good enough. Rank point scoring makes a joke of the category system. It really does. A shooters finish in his/her category is determined by how EVERYONE IN THE MATCH shot, not just those IN THAT CATEGORY. It seems to me that the Wild Bunch is entrenched in two conflicting traditions, rank point scoring, and categories. Category placement only really means something if that placement is based ONLY on how the others IN THE CATEGORY shot. If you must have Rank Point scoring, the only half sensible way is to use rank points for overall match placement, and category rank points for category placement. Sure, you'll have some instances where someone will finish above another overall, but below them in category, that is the nature of rank points. Of course total time scoring doesn't have that problem, because it is the lowest common denominator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty pete Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 The big difference I see is if you want to win shooting in a total time match I will have to shoot all 12 stages. Rank points I might not have to even show up on day 2.Which is really the Cowboy thing to do? Go to ALL the stages or gunfights or go home saying why shoot the rest I already won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 If you score a match with 2 different methods and come up with 2 different winners by GOD one of em is wrong!!! RRR Makes sense to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Isn't your rank based on your Total Time for each stage You don't want penalties to mess with your total time on a fast stage? don't get a penalty!! Get a stage DQ... well that means you only shot 11 of the 12 stages, not the entire match!! Only shot the 1st day... YOU DIDN'T FINISH!! Stay away from the awards banquet too!!! If you shoot a Rank/Total time match do not look at the scores and say shoulda, coulda, woulda... Instead say... gotta get better or better not screw up like that again What other shooters do only matters in a rank match? So... the 10 shootes that finished ahead of you in Total Time had no bearing on your 11th placement... Resolution set by the parameters of a given match is evident by scrutinizing the entry materials.... So is the Ph of the strata... I don't understand rank!! Rank isn't fair!! Some are younger... how is that fair? Some are retired and can travel to all the shoots... fair? Some have no kids, no worries, and disposable income... fair? I have all my hair, Trump has a comb over, and lots of wampum... Strange... fair? Some get to do all of the hard work (practice) at the range... others have to do all the hard work at work Some can grab four, some have motorhomes, dad buys endless bullets, Winter Range is in Arizona and some live 10 minutes from Ben Avery, some can juggle oranges... and Evil Roy got to star in Hell to Pay!! Etc. Etc. Ad Nauseam... Now quibble if you will about the mysticism of scoring and the associated IF's but it turns out the majority of the time I'd bet!! I just love all the supposed head scratchin... Now pistol dump targets and very closely spaced pistol targets are so much more unfair to the various category shooters as a whole than is rank scoring!! Quibble bout that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Bud Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Rank Scoring has been the strangest thing about SASS since I started this game back in 1999. We go to all the trouble to develop so many different categories in which to participate against similar competitors, then turn right around a force everyone to go head to head on every stage, especially at the big matches. I'm sorry I just don't get it! Can someone explain to me why a shooter in a different category should have any influence on the placements in another category? That's not a preference, it's an honest question that needs to be answered. If we're going to be forced to go head to head with every other shooter, then why do we need so many different categories in the first place? Adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Bison Bud, The reason is that in the Old West, if you shot against someone who shot a different style and you got killed, it didn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I've withheld comment until I read the article... Everything is based on time, why dilute that? Rewards consistency? I don't think so, even if that was true, it would only be reflected in over all match finish. Second point on rewarding consistency, rank points very much diminishes a SDQ, how is that rewarding the consistency of those who don't SDQ at all? Tradition? Not good enough. Rank point scoring makes a joke of the category system. It really does. A shooters finish in his/her category is determined by how EVERYONE IN THE MATCH shot, not just those IN THAT CATEGORY. It seems to me that the Wild Bunch is entrenched in two conflicting traditions, rank point scoring, and categories. Category placement only really means something if that placement is based ONLY on how the others IN THE CATEGORY shot. If you must have Rank Point scoring, the only half sensible way is to use rank points for overall match placement, and category rank points for category placement. Sure, you'll have some instances where someone will finish above another overall, but below them in category, that is the nature of rank points. Of course total time scoring doesn't have that problem, because it is the lowest common denominator. The only thing worse than rank point scoring is rank point scoring by category. It makes a mockery of scoring in any manner. Even in a major yearly shoot with many shooters per category, a good shooter can even miss shooting stages and end up in the top 3 or 4 in his category with rank scoring by category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I'm sorry I just don't get it! Can someone explain to me why a shooter in a different category should have any influence on the placements in another category? Adios Okay... It doesn't! All of the duelists will be ranked "in category" by their Total Time or the Rank they received from their total times on each stage. If you were to shoot Frontier Cartridge and all of the smokeless shooters place ahead of you... you will still place accordingly in your category!! Now in the overalls it could go like this in a Rank match: 1st FC 2nd FC 3rd Cowboy 4th Cowboy 5th 49'r 6th GF 7th Elder Statesmen 8th FC 8th overall but still 3rd in category Total time would look like this: 1st FC 2nd FC 3rd Cowboy 4th Cowboy 5th 49'r 6th GF 7th Elder Statesmen 8th FC 8th overall but still 3rd in category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Come now, Phantom. Preference is just that. There is no logic to preference, just opinion. People prefer all sorts of things that others think are not logical. I face that every day. I am married. It is easy to live with and I am happy. WB prefers Rank Points. Live with it and be happy. It could be a lot worse ! And does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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