Another "what's the call"

[Gawd Awful]

So I was at a shoot saterday, and the stage was 10 rifle, then 4 shotgun, then pistols. Shooter shoots rifle, grabs the shotgun and shoots two, loads one and no bang, ejects the round, throws second shell in, still no bang, ejects the round and throws one more in, still no bang. Slides action open as he is setting the shotgun down on the table right side down. Goes on to Pistols. As he goes back to pick up the shotgun there is a live round on the table under the ejection port.

 

Book says an empty or live round left in a long gun after the next gun is fired is a MSV

 

HOWEVER the shell was on the table with a gun over it. It was in the ejection port, but it wasn't sitting on the carrier and didn't "fall out" of the gun. It was sitting there. When the shotgun was picked up the shell didn't even move. Does it count as "in the gun"

 

Palewolf?

[Presidio]

No Call.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

IMHO that is a no call. I see many Marlin and 97 shooters discard their guns after use port down for that very reason.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

IMHO that is a no call. I see many Marlin and 97 shooters discard their guns after use port down for that very reason.

Can't prove shell was in gun. Benefit to the shooter. No call.

GJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMHO that is a no call. I see many Marlin and 97 shooters discard their guns after use port down for that very reason.

 

What Goody says.

In this case, declaring the (obvious) malfunction would have negated the penalty as well.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Here's one of those 'it could only happen to me' stories.

 

I was shooting my rifle thru a window prop. Ten fired and in all good appearances, ten ejected. But apparently (based on a posse member who 'thought' he saw what happened) my last empty shell ejected and bounced off the window frame. Now get this picture: At my last shot, I immediately (as in Widder fast) lay my Marlin down, port up. The shell that bounced off the window frame hit the table where my rifle was already lying and bounced inside my chamber, standing straight up. Not on the carrier; not laying down, etc.... but in a position as though someone had set it upright in my chamber.

 

Anyhow, I didn't argue the call because I didn't see how it happened but a posse member walked over to me and said he 'thought' he saw it eject and then bounce next to my rifle.

 

I try to always lay my rifle port down.

 

 

..........Widder

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Widder,

Everyone knows that an empty cartridge standing straight up in an open chamber is extremely dangerous and people cannot tell that it is empty or that it is standing up. So it must be a safety issue. What if a jet plane were to fly over and the cartridge fired!!!!

 

That is why I've seen several folks called for a MS when that happened with a 97.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Widder,

Everyone knows that an empty cartridge standing straight up in an open chamber is extremely dangerous and people cannot tell that it is empty or that it is standing up. So it must be a safety issue. What if a jet plane were to fly over and the cartridge fired!!!!

 

That is why I've seen several folks called for a MS when that happened with a 97.

 

 

So true....hehehe.

 

Hey Pard, I was planning to make the GA State in May but my daughter, my only child, is having her prom that weekend and wants daddy to see how beautiful she is in her prom dress. Plus, that prom dress will probably cost more than my trip to GA would have been. Hate to miss a good reputable match.

 

 

..........Widder

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Widder,

Everyone knows that an empty cartridge standing straight up in an open chamber is extremely dangerous and people cannot tell that it is empty or that it is standing up. So it must be a safety issue. What if a jet plane were to fly over and the cartridge fired!!!!

 

That is why I've seen several folks called for a MS when that happened with a 97.

 

Marauder, I feel foolish pointing this out to an engineer….but….actually a jet at altitude would be in no danger as a bullet would not travel that high. Now, on the other hand, if that same jet happened to be landing in Knoxville and was very low passing over the Smoky Mountain Shootists’ range, while the bullet would unlikely have enough velocity to penetrate the hull of the aircraft and puncture a passenger, there remains the possibility that the bullet could enter an engine, scare the bejeezus out all the passengers and possibly cause the pilot and co-pilot to have a heart attack, which would then cause the plane to crash and puncture ALL the passengers.

 

In my opinion, such an act requires the utmost effort in sending the message that safety is top priority, particularly when a shooter as fast as Widder is shooting, and even more so if he happens to be a gunfighter (which he is). Now, would I feel endangered if I was in the low flying plane? Absolutely. I would feel even a higher level of danger if I happened to be on the ground and shooting in the same match.

 

With all of this taken into consideration, a MSV is not nearly enough. A SDQ would be even better and a MDQ would send the proper message. Now, it would be okay for him to hang out because he’s a super guy to hang out with, but he doesn’t need to be shooting….if I’m there. I’m telling you, it’s dangerous….for me.

 

 

 

 

 

Widder, it’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get ya!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I am confused.

 

Last year I started a thread about two incidents where empties were on the carrier, pointing backwards. One was a rifle and the other was SG. Both were called MSVs as the rule states, "A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation."

 

We were told (PWB?)what direction it was pointing is irrelevant. Thus the penalty is applied.

 

Can someone explain how pointing backwards can earn a penalty and standing up cannot.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Allie,

 

me thinks it has alot to do with what side of the Mississippi your shooting.

 

for example, if you live in Alabama, like Buck, and a live round is pointed NORTH, it ain't no penalty. hehehehe

 

 

..........Widder

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

[Blastmaster]

Widder,

Everyone knows that an empty cartridge standing straight up in an open chamber is extremely dangerous and people cannot tell that it is empty or that it is standing up. So it must be a safety issue. What if a jet plane were to fly over and the cartridge fired!!!!

 

That is why I've seen several folks called for a MS when that happened with a 97.

 

 

It would be a definite MDQ if the plane had Nuns, Orphans and Widerwomans aboard.

[Stump Water]

Can someone explain how pointing backwards can earn a penalty and standing up cannot.

 

Nobody said that.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Shotgun shell was "on the table".... no rule against "on the table".... it just happened to be under the ejection port. NO CALL

 

As to Buck D Law's eriductum delictum erectum all is good until someone puts out someone's eye.

[Fairshake]

Since the"WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION IS ONLY IN A HALF TIME PHASE IT IS A NO CALL FOR ANY ROUND IN A RIFLE THAT IS POINTED NORTH"

[BJT]

Makes a feller give pause for thought.........

 

 

So say I shoot my Marlin and set it down, port up. When the stage is finished an empty round is resting in the action against the top of the frame, not touching the carrier, is it a safety?

 

If so, how is this different than port down?

 

If not, a Marlin should never get a empty shell MSV at the unloading table due to benefit of the doubt.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The simplest solution is to skip the side ejecting Marlin and shoot nothing but Toggle Link Rifles. Besides, I need a Marlin in .45 Colt with a short barrel. :rolleyes:

 

Coffinmaker

[Stump Water]

 

So say I shoot my Marlin and set it down, port up. When the stage is finished an empty round is resting in the action against the top of the frame, not touching the carrier, is it a safety?

Farming nits again I see.

 

You said "in the action", so yes.

 

 

If so, how is this different than port down?

 

It's port down. You can't see the empty case. That indroduces doubt.

 

Or would you like to see the rule changed to read, "If the empty case rolls away when you pick up a port down long gun, MSV. If the case remains stationary, no call." ??

[BJT]

The shell is "in the action" port up or port down as long as the gun was not raised more than the diameter of the round.

 

The rule is:

 

"as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on

the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded"

 

So if it is not in the chamber, in the magazine or on the carrier, no call. This should be true port up or port down.

 

I would not call this a nit. I would call this a significant change on how I see these things called.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

Farming nits again I see.

 

You said "in the action", so yes.

 

 

 

It's port down. You can't see the empty case. That indroduces doubt.

 

Or would you like to see the rule changed to read, "If the empty case rolls away when you pick up a port down long gun, MSV. If the case remains stationary, no call." ??

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Nit, nit, nit..... with the port down the shell is not on the carrier or in the action... it's on the table. NIT, NIT, NIT

[Taquila Tab, Sass #25048]

The shell is "in the action" port up or port down as long as the gun was not raised more than the diameter of the round.

 

The rule is:

 

"as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on

the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded"

 

So if it is not in the chamber, in the magazine or on the carrier, no call. This should be true port up or port down.

I don't agree with you here. If the gun is port up it would probably be on carrier which is subject to the penalty. But if it's port down then gravity would most likely have it off the carrier and onto the table. Unless when you picked up the gun (from port down) and it was on the carrier. Then the penalty would apply. Better to take the extra split second and glance at the rifle when it's set down to make sure.

[BJT]

Yup, port up, it could be on the carrier. What if it is not? Is that reason enough to not issue the penalty? Should I, as an RO be looking at that and not just a shell in the action?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

I don't agree with you here. If the gun is port up it would probably be on carrier which is subject to the penalty. But if it's port down then gravity would most likely have it off the carrier and onto the table. Unless when you picked up the gun (from port down) and it was on the carrier. Then the penalty would apply. Better to take the extra split second and glance at the rifle when it's set down to make sure.

[Stump Water]

Port down, no call.

 

Port up, you got me BJT. But you'll have to bring the vernier caliper, protractor, feeler gauge, magnifying glass.... and refreshments.

 

Micro analysis takes time, we'll need refreshments while we wait.

[Taquila Tab, Sass #25048]

Yup, port up, it could be on the carrier. What if it is not? Is that reason enough to not issue the penalty? Should I, as an RO be looking at that and not just a shell in the action?

 

Cheers,

BJT

No, I think you stated it previously. You look to see if it's in the chamber, magazine or on the carrier. Anywhere else doesn't matter does it?

[BJT]

I agree but it may be news to some!

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

No, I think you stated it previously. You look to see if it's in the chamber, magazine or on the carrier. Anywhere else doesn't matter does it?

[Matthew Duncan]

Since the"WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION IS ONLY IN A HALF TIME PHASE IT IS A NO CALL FOR ANY ROUND IN A RIFLE THAT IS POINTED NORTH"

 

I totally agree!

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

In most of threse rare instances where this happens with the action port down, no one is gonna clearly see or reliably witness the empty case in the action. Its just gonna be there on the table after the arn is moved and would be contraary to giving all benefit of doubt to favor of shooter if any penalty were imposed. No call. I see no harm in suggesting to shooter that she/he consider a new ejecter for the rifle before next shoot.

 

prs

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Yup, port up, it could be on the carrier. What if it is not? Is that reason enough to not issue the penalty? Should I, as an RO be looking at that and not just a shell in the action?

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

18. A live round left in the chamber of a long gun constitutes a stage disqualification. Any other rounds, live or empty, left anywhere in a long gun in which it was loaded is a ten-second minor safety violation. Broken guns still containing rounds do not warrant penalties, except for misses, so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe.

SHB p.24

[Dubious Don #56333]

Miss Allie, 'tis not how the shell SITS in the action (backwards, frontwards, sidewards or upwards) but how it GOT there in the first place. If the shell never left the action, a penalty would of course be correctly called. If however that shell was EJECTED and did the Wiley E. Coyote BOING-BOING bounce and bounces back into the action AFTER THE SHOOTER HAS STAGED THE RIFLE, this would be a NO CALL in my book!

 

Hi Folks,

 

I am confused.

 

Last year I started a thread about two incidents where empties were on the carrier, pointing backwards. One was a rifle and the other was SG. Both were called MSVs as the rule states, "A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation."

 

We were told (PWB?)what direction it was pointing is irrelevant. Thus the penalty is applied.

 

Can someone explain how pointing backwards can earn a penalty and standing up cannot.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Please note the highlighted areas below;

 

Here's one of those 'it could only happen to me' stories.

 

I was shooting my rifle thru a window prop. Ten fired and in all good appearances, ten ejected. But apparently (based on a posse member who 'thought' he saw what happened) my last empty shell ejected and bounced off the window frame. Now get this picture: At my last shot, I immediately (as in Widder fast) lay my Marlin down, port up. The shell that bounced off the window frame hit the table where my rifle was already lying and bounced inside my chamber, standing straight up. Not on the carrier; not laying down, etc.... but in a position as though someone had set it upright in my chamber.

 

Anyhow, I didn't argue the call because I didn't see how it happened but a posse member walked over to me and said he 'thought' he saw it eject and then bounce next to my rifle.

I try to always lay my rifle port down.

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Miss Allie, 'tis not how the shell SITS in the action (backwards, frontwards, sidewards or upwards) but how it GOT there in the first place. If the shell never left the action, a penalty would of course be correctly called. If however that shell was EJECTED and did the Wiley E. Coyote BOING-BOING bounce and bounces back into the action AFTER THE SHOOTER HAS STAGED THE RIFLE, this would be a NO CALL in my book!

 

Please note the highlighted areas below;

 

Noted...and agreed...the shooter had the option of protesting the call based on that observation.