OK LEO's and auto fans

[G. P. Cobb]

OK Gus, I didn't make myself clear as usual,

Read this first.

FNH USA SCAR 17S Patrol Rifle

BY

 

Lt. Dave Bahde is a 20-year veteran of South Salt Lake (Utah) PD and an experienced SWAT team leader and firearms instructor.

 

 

 

 

This feature-loaded rifle is easy to shoot, accurate and rugged enough for the toughest duty.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.308 Application

 

Which brings me back to the caliber debate and leads us into this discussion of the FNH USA SCAR 17S, a .308 caliber patrol rifle.

 

There are agencies and jurisdictions where the extra range and penetration of the .308 rifle is a necessity. Many rural jurisdictions may have to deal with four-legged critters that a 5.56 round would simply irritate. And there are also areas where every home owner has a 7mm Magnum or bigger rifle for deer hunting where local law enforcement needs the power and performance of .308 rifles.

 

You can control the penetration of the .308 with bullet selection, but you cannot add range to the 5.56mm. Whether a .308 patrol rifle is for you depends on what you actually need and the ranges at which you will need it.

 

OK. Lets's talk about the SCAR 17S.

 

Full-Featured

 

The SCAR 17S may be the most perfect .308 patrol rifle that I have ever evaluated. I know that's a strong statement. So let me elaborate.

 

In my experience all but some custom rifles are often problematic or erratic when purchased in bulk. One of the most popular guns on the market came to me in a pair, and it took all kinds of tweaking to get these to work at all for the first 100 rounds. That's not the case so far for the FNH USA SCAR 17S.

 

The SCAR 17S is not an AR-type rifle, it just looks like one. The gas system is different and has more in common with rifles like the Heckler & Koch G36, the FN FAL, and other proven systems. It does, however, have the ergonomics associated with the AR platform.

 

The SCAR 17S was developed for the military, and the military wanted to smooth the transition for its troops from ARs to the SCAR so all of the controls are in the same place with a couple extras. Some of these out-of-the-box extras are what we should have on every rifle intended for police work. For example, there's an ambi-safety control. Another nice touch is the ambidextrous magazine release. Not only does this facilitate left-handed shooting, it also makes magazine changes from the prone position easier to perform regardless of which side you shoot from.

 

Read More and Attribute here

 

 

[Seldom Seen #16162]

It is just another way for law enforcement agencies to pay for overpriced toys. The lever action 30-30 carbine is the most reliable and inexpensive long gun. Works in saddle scabbards and in gun racks.

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

It is just another way for law enforcement agencies to pay for overpriced toys. The lever action 30-30 carbine is the most reliable and inexpensive long gun. Works in saddle scabbards and in gun racks.

 

but you wouldn't want to face an AK-47 with that

[Buckshot Frank]

I think that the SCAR is an awesome weapon, but I question the need for it for LEO use. Other than police snipers (who already use .308), I don't get the argument that other officers need more range then the 5.56 already provides. Even police sniper encounters take place on average of 50-75 yards. I can buy the argument about greater penetration or stopping power needed in some cases, but over-pentetration is usually a bigger concern for LEOs. You pointed out that you can control over-penetration with bullet selection, but unless multiple types of ammo will be supplied and carried, you can't have it both ways. Don't get me wrong- I'm all for LEOs having the best equipment available to do the job that they do, I just don't see the 7.62 SCAR having a place other than for very specialized roles.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

but you wouldn't want to face an AK-47 with that

 

Why not? Other than than AK-47 full auto spitting out bullets quicker (which after the first two rounds are uncontrollable and are probably punching holes in the sky) it holds nothing over the 30-30. The 30-30 has longer range, shoots heavier bullets, will penetrate body armor along with cover such as car doors and as we see in CAS is easy to control, reliable, shoot rapidly and unlike the AK actually hit your target.

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

Why not? Other than than AK-47 full auto spitting out bullets quicker (which after the first two rounds are uncontrollable and are probably punching holes in the sky) it holds nothing over the 30-30. The 30-30 has longer range, shoots heavier bullets, will penetrate body armor along with cover such as car doors and as we see in CAS is easy to control, reliable, shoot rapidly and unlike the AK actually hit your target.

 

I suppose that's the reason hundreds of countries around the world have adopted the .30-30 as their military's primary weapon.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I suppose that's the reason hundreds of countries around the world have adopted the .30-30 as their military's primary weapon.

 

 

GG ~

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

I don't think a levah action has evah been chosen as a military arm, except for a coupla home-guard type things....

 

Wahl, there is the Henry and the Spencer, but like, since then, like....

[Subdeacon Joe]

I don't think a levah action has evah been chosen as a military arm, except for a coupla home-guard type things....

 

(I just know that I'm gonna get jumped on by LEOs for this, trying to tell me and the world that I'm anti-police. Sorry, I'm not. I worked in a gun store/indoor range, rubbed elbows with cops, shot with them from time to time. Generally hung out with them when they came in just to chew the fat for a while. But, here goes)

 

Which doesn't mean that lever actions wouldn't be a perfectly acceptable arm for law enforcement agencies. LE is rarely faced with dozens of thugs with full auto weapons, RPGs, and maybe mortar support. Somehow we have gotten to the point where LE is looked at as an auxiliary to the military. Or maybe as a civic or county army. In spite of the uniforms, military style discipline and rank structure, we need to remember that cops are civilians, not military.

 

"Well what about N. Hollywood!?!?!?"

 

What about it? A couple of sharpshooters with 03 Springfields could have ended it. Not sure about a 30-30 lever gun - I see those as 150 yard max. But, my point is that we should be leery of allowing our city police departments and county sheriffs offices to become european-style para-military forces. How many incidents like that have we seen? SLA in 74, N. Hollywood in 97, arguably the one in Miami in the mid-80s, I guess you could count the Norco shootout in the late 70s or early 80s.

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

(I just know that I'm gonna get jumped on by LEOs for this, trying to tell me and the world that I'm anti-police. Sorry, I'm not. I worked in a gun store/indoor range, rubbed elbows with cops, shot with them from time to time. Generally hung out with them when they came in just to chew the fat for a while. But, here goes)

 

Which doesn't mean that lever actions wouldn't be a perfectly acceptable arm for law enforcement agencies. LE is rarely faced with dozens of thugs with full auto weapons, RPGs, and maybe mortar support. Somehow we have gotten to the point where LE is looked at as an auxiliary to the military. Or maybe as a civic or county army. In spite of the uniforms, military style discipline and rank structure, we need to remember that cops are civilians, not military.

 

"Well what about N. Hollywood!?!?!?"

 

What about it? A couple of sharpshooters with 03 Springfields could have ended it. Not sure about a 30-30 lever gun - I see those as 150 yard max. But, my point is that we should be leery of allowing our city police departments and county sheriffs offices to become european-style para-military forces. How many incidents like that have we seen? SLA in 74, N. Hollywood in 97, arguably the one in Miami in the mid-80s, I guess you could count the Norco shootout in the late 70s or early 80s.

 

 

I personally think it's a good idea the LEO's have the upper hand in weaponry when confronting perps...just my opinion....I respect yours as well.

 

GG ~ USA flag

 

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

I personally think it's a good idea the LEO's have the upper hand in weaponry when confronting perps...just my opinion....I respect yours as well.

 

GG ~ USA flag

 

I'll grant, it is a balancing act. But, how far do we go? Do we arm every cop on the beat with M-60s and 40mm grenade launchers just so they will have the upper hand? Do we go with the "well, what if the thugs have (plug in Hollyweird-type mega-shoot-'em-up script)"? Or do we look at what the average cop on the beat is likely to come across and make it 50% worse and arm him for that?

 

Maybe living in CA with its AWB still firmly in place, and seeing LEOs with firearms that other honest citizens are not allowed to own, gives me a bit of a warped view of things. Especially when I've had to instruct cops on some of the gun laws. I remember having to remind one that was all excited when the federal AWB sunset - he was gonna get himself a couple of ARs. "Um...those will still be illegal in CA. But you can buy one, just get your dept to sign off on it. You can even get full design capacity magazines." "Really? I didn't know that!" And his Sgt and the dept. weapons instructor confirmed what I had said. Then invited me back into the range to fire a few magazines full auto from an MP-5. Fun time had by all.

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

Not attacking you Joe.

 

How about we arm the cops on the street with the best available weaponry to get their job done.

 

Does the average street cop need full auto? No. Does he need semi auto? Yes. He needs the capability of fast follow up shots with a caliber capable of 12-18 inches of penetration in a human torso with appropriate ammunition. He needs the ability to lay down a volley of suppressive fire, if necessary. He needs the capability to change magazines and load with a different ammunition if the situation calls for it.

 

I'm sorry your lawmakers in CA saw fit to pass the outlandish restrictions that we who live in other states look at and roll their eyes. But that won't make me recall my issuing my officers AR-15 rifles and high capacity handguns.

 

BTW, I think the cops in the North Hollywood shootout would have welcomed anyone with an '03 Springfield, or any other center fire, martial caliber rifles capable of defeating the body armor of the bad guys. I suspect a Handi Rifle in .270 would have been welcomed by them.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I'll grant, it is a balancing act. But, how far do we go? Do we arm every cop on the beat with M-60s and 40mm grenade launchers just so they will have the upper hand? Do we go with the "well, what if the thugs have (plug in Hollyweird-type mega-shoot-'em-up script)"? Or do we look at what the average cop on the beat is likely to come across and make it 50% worse and arm him for that?

 

Maybe living in CA with its AWB still firmly in place, and seeing LEOs with firearms that other honest citizens are not allowed to own, gives me a bit of a warped view of things. Especially when I've had to instruct cops on some of the gun laws. I remember having to remind one that was all excited when the federal AWB sunset - he was gonna get himself a couple of ARs. "Um...those will still be illegal in CA. But you can buy one, just get your dept to sign off on it. You can even get full design capacity magazines." "Really? I didn't know that!" And his Sgt and the dept. weapons instructor confirmed what I had said. Then invited me back into the range to fire a few magazines full auto from an MP-5. Fun time had by all.

 

I guess it's not the first time my opinion gets taken outta context...and I won't take yours outta context. So... I'll hit my 'mute' button...

 

GG ~

[G. P. Cobb]

This is the winning post to date.

Some, well, they need to read all three pages, watch the video, then come back and edit.

 

30-30 =

_____________________________________

Not attacking you Joe.

 

How about we arm the cops on the street with the best available weaponry to get their job done.

 

Does the average street cop need full auto? No. Does he need semi auto? Yes. He needs the capability of fast follow up shots with a caliber capable of 12-18 inches of penetration in a human torso with appropriate ammunition. He needs the ability to lay down a volley of suppressive fire, if necessary. He needs the capability to change magazines and load with a different ammunition if the situation calls for it.

 

I'm sorry your lawmakers in CA saw fit to pass the outlandish restrictions that we who live in other states look at and roll their eyes. But that won't make me recall my issuing my officers AR-15 rifles and high capacity handguns.

 

BTW, I think the cops in the North Hollywood shootout would have welcomed anyone with an '03 Springfield, or any other center fire, martial caliber rifles capable of defeating the body armor of the bad guys. I suspect a Handi Rifle in .270 would have been welcomed by them.

[DocDisaster # 45431]

Absolutely..

 

 

 

I suppose that's the reason hundreds of countries around the world have adopted the .30-30 as their military's primary weapon.

[Subdeacon Joe]

Not attacking you Joe.

 

How about we arm the cops on the street with the best available weaponry to get their job done.

 

Does the average street cop need full auto? No. Does he need semi auto? Yes. He needs the capability of fast follow up shots with a caliber capable of 12-18 inches of penetration in a human torso with appropriate ammunition. He needs the ability to lay down a volley of suppressive fire, if necessary. He needs the capability to change magazines and load with a different ammunition if the situation calls for it.

 

I'm sorry your lawmakers in CA saw fit to pass the outlandish restrictions that we who live in other states look at and roll their eyes. But that won't make me recall my issuing my officers AR-15 rifles and high capacity handguns.

 

BTW, I think the cops in the North Hollywood shootout would have welcomed anyone with an '03 Springfield, or any other center fire, martial caliber rifles capable of defeating the body armor of the bad guys. I suspect a Handi Rifle in .270 would have been welcomed by them.

 

Yeah, anything with a decent range and penetrating power. Swedish Mauser, Mosin-Nagant, Garand.

 

 

And we are back to trying to figure out what LE needs to respond to the credible threat. I have no problem with semi-auto side arms and long arms. I'd like to see, and I'm sure you would like to see, a LOT more training with each. I hate to say it, but except for the SWAT guys, most of the cops I saw shoot would have trouble hitting a barn from the inside. And I'm sure that when you said "high capacity magazine" you really meant "standard designed capacity magazines."

 

I guess it's not the first time my opinion gets taken outta context...and I won't take yours outta context. So... I'll hit my 'mute' button...

 

GG ~

 

Sorry you feel that way. I had quoted your entire post, so I fail to see how it was out of context. I felt that your comment "I personally think it's a good idea the LEO's have the upper hand in weaponry when confronting perps." was rather open ended. I admit, I indulged in just a bit of hyperbole to make a the point of how far do we go to make sure they always have the upper hand. As I mentioned to Lawman Mark, we are back to the idea of what do we consider a credible threat?

[DocDisaster # 45431]

This is just one example of why LEO's need adequate Fire Power

 

The same type of incident happened in Homestead, Fl a couple years back, luckily the officer was not killed he just lost an eye from spawling glass.

 

1986 FBI shootout bad guys had Mini-14, FBI had revolvers, s/a pistol and pump shotgun

 

A couple years back we had an officer shot through and through with an AK.

 

We have had a dramatic increase in the use of Rifles by bad guys and an increase in the use of body armor. The officers need to be able to effectively and accurately engage threats. If it is worthy of shooting, it should be worthy of shooting it with a rifle!!

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

Well, Joe, in my area, meth labs, pot farms and the scum that protect and transport that type of illegal substances are what we consider "credible threats". Not to mention the Sovereign Citizen movement, the "Free Militia", various factions of hate groups, gang members, and various other nefarious groups and individuals. Any and all of which are likely to be armed with guns of all descriptions. From sawed off shotguns to Springfield M1A rifles. From Marlin .22's cut down to a 12" barrel to MAK-47s. I have yet to find one with a legal full auto weapon, but it's probably coming..caught more than one with illegally converted weapons.

 

All of my officers have to qualify twice yearly with every weapon they use on duty. They are encouraged to practice more than that. Most do. My Lieutenant just had me load 1,000 rounds of .45 ACP for him to practice with...he had bought a Kimber 1911, and wanted to be competent. His last qualification was a 94 out of 100, and he wasn't happy with it. I shoot IDPA and typically fire something like 5,000 rounds a year besides my CAS and Police Department loads.

 

Oh, yeah. You're partially right about the "high capacity magazine" thing. What I meant anything higher than what was legal for the average citizen in CA...10 rounds, right?

[G. P. Cobb]

We've had a heathy discussion on the FN, I appreciate those from Knowledgeable Officers of the Day.

I did neglect to indicate in the OP the facts are presented by:

 

Lt. Dave Bahde is a 20-year veteran of South Salt Lake (Utah) PD and an experienced SWAT team leader and firearms instructor.

 

 

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

'''

 

 

 

Sorry you feel that way. I had quoted your entire post, so I fail to see how it was out of context. I felt that your comment "I personally think it's a good idea the LEO's have the upper hand in weaponry when confronting perps." was rather open ended. I admit, I indulged in just a bit of hyperbole to make a the point of how far do we go to make sure they always have the upper hand. As I mentioned to Lawman Mark, we are back to the idea of what do we consider a credible threat?

 

No need for the 'sorry you feel that way'...I ain't sorry for nothin'. Your response to my 'open ended' post was indeed 'indulged in just a bit of hyperbole' of which I responded to. I didn't feel the need to go in the direction of taking your 'entire' post out of context, so I refrained. No big deal....

 

GG ~ USA flag

 

 

 

[Sheriff Oso, SASS #57788L]

I believe police officers (patrol officers- not SWAT) should have access to, and be able to carry, their choice of the same arms I would own, if I owned any. Of course I dont have ANY firearms, except that Dragoon I just got from Mingo Frank, but if I did, I would have some custom shop 1911's, some .40 S&W's (Glock & Beretta), a nice SIG in .40 or .45, and a cute little PPK-S .380(for those unexpected moments of really close-in terror), along with some nice wheel guns like a Colt Anaconda (.44 mag with a nice long barrel), a Ruger SP-101 (5 round .357 that is EASILY concealed just about anywhere on the body), some variously chambered AR-15's, a coupla AK's and a variety of shotguns and lever guns..as well as the best body armor and trauma plates the city council or county commissioners will fund.

 

The police and the Bad Guys ARE in an arms race, and, as the dashcam video from the DFW area shootout shows ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NsBLisA3M ), it is the PATROL officers that initially encounter the miscreants.

 

I am not a "real" Sheriff, but I play one in SASS, and I stand firmly BEHIND the cops and the troops. If the municipal coffers allow it, provide our LEO's with the best! But what I REALLY advocate is giving them a CHOICE of arms...arms with which they feel confident and proficient. There is no place for "Spray & Pray" on today's streets. Get the training, get the practice, attain the proficiency and the confidence, and GO GET THEM BAD GUYS!

 

As for the one being discussed here, if your dept. feels a NEED for .308 SA rifles, why not!?! Remember, every cop out there has ONE MAIN GOAL EVERY DAY-Go Home to the Family! And if it takes an FNH USA SCAR 17S Patrol Rifle to "bring em all home safe", I have no problem with it.

 

 

FWIW..YMMV..SOso

 

p.s.- upon re-reading before posting I realize I need to add the following- ARM THE SWAT TEAMS WITH TOP OF THE LINE EQUIPMENT, and - as often as possible - practice, practice practice!

 

PPS- YIKES! I thought I was including a LINK, not the whole VIDEO!! This new board will take some gittin used to!

[DocDisaster # 45431]

I don't need anything as fancy as the FN I am satisfied with my SOCOM II and my DPMS LR308 they are both more accurate than I and are very reliable.

 

Doc

[Seldom Seen #16162]

I suppose that's the reason hundreds of countries around the world have adopted the .30-30 as their military's primary weapon.

 

It's a image thing. It just doesn't look cool shooting a lever action rifle in the air. If you ain't waving and shooting full auto AK's in air you just ain't going to pass the tough guy test.

 

But military and law enforcemnt use are two totally critters. For starters the military doesn't have to worry about where and who all those rounds going downrange hit. Many LEO's are killed because a) they didn't have the interest to practice and improve their marksmanship, poor tactics and c) poor training. All to often we see use of technology to try to overcome these problems.

 

The late great guru Jeff Cooper endorsed use of the lever action 30-30 so I am in good company even if he is a little dead.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

It's a image thing. It just doesn't look cool shooting a lever action rifle in the air. If you ain't waving and shooting full auto AK's in air you just ain't going to pass the tough guy test.

 

But military and law enforcemnt use are two totally critters. For starters the military doesn't have to worry about where and who all those rounds going downrange hit. Many LEO's are killed because a) they didn't have the interest to practice and improve their marksmanship, poor tactics and c) poor training. All to often we see use of technology to try to overcome these problems.

 

The late great guru Jeff Cooper endorsed use of the lever action 30-30 so I am in good company even if he is a little dead.

 

Really...I think the same Cooper is the the one who also said:

 

"All the people constitute the militia — according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the "well-regulated" militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment. . . . Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Jeff_Cooper

 

GG ~ USA flag

[G. P. Cobb]

Well sire, I have M1-A Match, AR-15, AK-47, I haven't qualified with them anywhere but in the Army with the 14. Never touched a M16, am I Ir-responsible citizen? Hope not. Let's qualify, I like the "well-regulated militia part, you?

 

Really...I think the same Cooper is the the one who also said:

 

"All the people constitute the militia — according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the "well-regulated" militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment. . . . Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen."

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Jeff_Cooper

 

GG ~ USA flag

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Well sire, I have M1-A Match, AR-15, AK-47, I haven't qualified with them anywhere but in the Army with the 14. Never touched a M16, am I Ir-responsible citizen? Hope not. Let's qualify, I like the "well-regulated militia part, you?

 

 

 

Well good for you sire - but, I'm not Lt Col. Jeff Cooper, so I cannot answer your question. Of course I like most things that have been said by the authority on this subject.

 

GG ~

[Red Logan #12252]

Would it be safe to assume that poor training is a direct reflection of the training officer, or maybe the chief leo' requirements??

[Blue Steel Duke]

Unfortunately with most Law Enforcement agencies, their equipping of the troops has been reactive, instead of proactive. The .357 was a reaction to the less potent .38 round, the 9mm was a reaction to the limited capacity of the wheel guns, and the .40 was a reaction to the underpowered 9mm round. Soon after the Hollywood fiasco, departments realized that the beat Officer should be equipped with same equipment as the SWAT Officer, and most recently we understand that you're not even safe in a Detroit Police Station. Even back in 1990, I carried a S&W 25 as my duty gun and I had a Remington 870 in a rack, but I also had a .30 cal rifle in the trunk, and I also carried a Marlin 30-30 lever action on a couple of man hunts in the woods. I say as long as you train and reproduce deadly accuracy, carry what you need in your trunk.

 

BSD

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

It's a image thing. It just doesn't look cool shooting a lever action rifle in the air. If you ain't waving and shooting full auto AK's in air you just ain't going to pass the tough guy test.

 

But military and law enforcemnt use are two totally critters. For starters the military doesn't have to worry about where and who all those rounds going downrange hit. Many LEO's are killed because a) they didn't have the interest to practice and improve their marksmanship, poor tactics and c) poor training. All to often we see use of technology to try to overcome these problems.

 

The late great guru Jeff Cooper endorsed use of the lever action 30-30 so I am in good company even if he is a little dead.

 

I don't see a lot of .30-30's with an option to unload them without racking an entire magazine of ca'tridges through the chamber, with the hammer back on each one. That's kind of a safety concern in a urban situation. Not to mention, the inability to render it safe by dropping the magazine and discharging or ejecting the chambered round, without having to do the ejecting part seven or eight times. Typically, if they have a safety at all, it's not one easily operated with the weapon shouldered. With the Marlin, it requires the hammer be back before the gun can be put "on safe". Half cock notches are an accidental discharge in the making.

 

The AR-15, and most every other modern weapon of that ilk, has the capability to unload it by dropping the magazine and ejecting a cartridge with the safety in the on position, removing that risk of accidental discharge. By changing magazines, you can go from a soft or hollow point round, intended to expand on soft tissue, to hardball or AP rounds to shoot through a vehicle or wall. In their various configurations, most are readily adaptable to flashlights, optical sights, and laser aiming devices. Although it's not impossible to hang those type of devices on a .30-30, the duct tape you'll use will mar the finish.

 

The assertion of poor tactics and poor training are not an excuse to handicap law enforcement with an archaic, outdated weapon that has safety concerns in tactical and urban settings. Caliber is not the issue..the mechanical system is.