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Edge hits on targets


Blastmaster

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Pard, this is blatantly against the RO manual. ROs do NOT COUNT MISSES / HITS. ROs are charged with safety and are supposed to be watching the shooter / gun. Counters count hits and misses, and there are supposed to be three because any split decision will be 2-1. The two win, and the RO is not supposed to supersede them. The RO can assess safety penalties, etc., but not count his / misses.

 

Gold Canyon Kid is dead on. See item C below.

From page 7 of ROI:

 

5. Timer Operator

A- Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as

he/she is running the timer.

B- Is responsible for assigning and identifying three Spotters. It is a good idea to have

bandanas or batons for the spotters to hold. This helps identify the spotters and keeps

them on the line until they hand off the baton or bandana to the next spotter.

C- The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can

question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best

advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

D- The Timer Operator should be aware of the skill level of the competitors and very

attentive to newer shooters, helping and coaching them through the course of fire, as

needed, and always ready to control the newer shooter.

E- Give seasoned shooters a little more room since they tend to move very fast. Don’t

let them run over you because you’re crowding them.

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First off, as a shooter I win some and I loose some...

 

As a spotter, if I see a hit in the dirt or whatever that isn't close to where it should impact, hmmm cud it be an edge HIT, doubt??? hmmm..HiT

 

As a TO, I take a great deal of pride in being in the right position to be able to help the shooter. I line up behind the strong side shoulder, (I like it when the shooter has to look to find me, I'm out of his sight so as not to distract him). From that vantage point I can see and anticipate his moves and actions. I look down their arm as they are shooting and I see, the firearm being used, it's action, line of sight and yes the Targets. I am with arms reach with the timer in my weak hand(I change to my right as the last shots near to get the last shot), that way I can do my best to control the shooter as fast and best as possible. As each firearm nears the last shot of the string I anticipate what i expect the shooter is going to do next. and help correct him if possible. All this being said is to say that YES as the TO I can watch the targets while watching the shooter and his firearms, where he is going to put them, and where he is going next.

 

Oh, and do I point out and edge hit to spotters? YU BETCHA! I give no less than I expect to get!

 

You don't think edge hits are hits? what is the second word in "edge hits"? It ain't edge misses is it? It's HITS!

 

You won't be swayed by someone else with a better angle or view, like others said, then do something else!

 

Have we gone to far? hmmm me thinks NOT.

 

Do I please everyone, hmmmm me thinks NOT, but I sure as heck try!

 

cheyenne

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As in baseball, there will occasionally be some bad calls, but, personally, I appreciate the diligence of the spotters. I had a personal experience, a few years back, where I felt that I missed a flyer with the shotgun. The clay target had sailed safely to the ground, apparently unscathed. One of the spotters (and only one) claimed that I hit it. They closed the range, he walked out, picked up the seemingly undamaged clay bird, and there was one little BB hole in the target. The target wasn't broken, but they called it a hit.

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First off, as a shooter I win some and I loose some...

 

As a spotter, if I see a hit in the dirt or whatever that isn't close to where it should impact, hmmm cud it be an edge HIT, doubt??? hmmm..HiT

 

As a TO, I take a great deal of pride in being in the right position to be able to help the shooter. I line up behind the strong side shoulder, (I like it when the shooter has to look to find me, I'm out of his sight so as not to distract him). From that vantage point I can see and anticipate his moves and actions. I look down their arm as they are shooting and I see, the firearm being used, it's action, line of sight and yes the Targets. I am with arms reach with the timer in my weak hand(I change to my right as the last shots near to get the last shot), that way I can do my best to control the shooter as fast and best as possible. As each firearm nears the last shot of the string I anticipate what i expect the shooter is going to do next. and help correct him if possible. All this being said is to say that YES as the TO I can watch the targets while watching the shooter and his firearms, where he is going to put them, and where he is going next.

 

Oh, and do I point out and edge hit to spotters? YU BETCHA! I give no less than I expect to get!

 

You don't think edge hits are hits? what is the second word in "edge hits"? It ain't edge misses is it? It's HITS!

 

You won't be swayed by someone else with a better angle or view, like others said, then do something else!

 

Have we gone to far? hmmm me thinks NOT.

 

Do I please everyone, hmmmm me thinks NOT, but I sure as heck try!

 

cheyenne

 

Cheyenne, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that you have read the handbooks in their entirety. While I have been at many matches where you have been shooting, I have yet to shoot on the same posse with you. It is now on my to-do list. Based upon the fact that you can shoot gunfighter, I should have guessed that walking and chewing gum at the same time (or anticipating a shooter's movement, seeing edge hits, etc.) would not cause a problem. Good job.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNDmX-zf1Do

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Thanks Buck, now, iffn I cud use the puter as well asn I cud shoot.....

 

cheyenne

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Pard, this is blatantly against the RO manual. ROs do NOT COUNT MISSES / HITS. ROs are charged with safety and are supposed to be watching the shooter / gun. Counters count hits and misses, and there are supposed to be three because any split decision will be 2-1. The two win, and the RO is not supposed to supersede them. The RO can assess safety penalties, etc., but not count his / misses.

 

5. Timer Operator

...

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

ROI p.7

 

(sorry Buck...I hadn't flipped to page 2 before posting this...but maybe it bears repeating for the benefit of any "tunnel vision" T/O's)

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And like every rule, there are some common sense exceptions. I have seen (and done) where the RO completely overruled the spotters, gave the shooter a clean stage, and got three new spotters because the three "Who knows, I don't knows and I saw maybe two misses maybe four" were so far off in the RO's opinion that they musta been blind AND deaf!

 

Pard, this is blatantly against the RO manual. ROs do NOT COUNT MISSES / HITS. ROs are charged with safety and are supposed to be watching the shooter / gun. Counters count hits and misses, and there are supposed to be three because any split decision will be 2-1. The two win, and the RO is not supposed to supersede them. The RO can assess safety penalties, etc., but not count his / misses.

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As I've said on more posts than this I'm really new to this sport, but I do wonder, if the BOD goes to the shooter, then it would seem that a single spotter calling a hit would be a hit. If it takes a majority, to get a hit, then element of doubt is still there because at least one person said it was a hit. Kind of like guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it only takes one no vote and at the very least it's a hung jury (gotta love that term). I'm probably wrong, but where am I off in my reasoning?

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If two spotters out of three say it's a hit, it's a hit. If two out of three say it's a miss, it's a miss. There should be no going down range to examine the forensic evidence, checking paint chips, changing opinions based on other spotters' calls, etc. Spotters should call it like they see it, and the timer operator assesses what two out of three say. THE TIMER OPERATOR SHOULD NEVER COUNT MISSES. He / she is charged with safety and should be watching the shooter for unsafe acts. Bottom line, period, and exclamation point.

 

This game is supposed to be simpler, easier, and faster to administrate than our "practical" shooting compadres' games.

 

From the RO I Handbook:

 

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can

question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best

advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

 

When the RO I is taught, ROs are taught to "help" spotters if they missed edge hits the ROs might see. In the end the call is the spotters tho.

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As I've said on more posts than this I'm really new to this sport, but I do wonder, if the BOD goes to the shooter, then it would seem that a single spotter calling a hit would be a hit. If it takes a majority, to get a hit, then element of doubt is still there because at least one person said it was a hit. Kind of like guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it only takes one no vote and at the very least it's a hung jury (gotta love that term). I'm probably wrong, but where am I off in my reasoning?

 

Due to the fact that all three spotters cannot be looking over the shoulder of the shooter (the best position to see hits and misses), one spotter might not be positioned to assuredly state that a shot was missed (so he gives the BOD to the shooter) while the other two could assuredly state that they witnessed a miss. Instead of operating like a jury where one person can cause a hung jury, we operate more like Supreme Courts Justices; majority rules.

 

It's not a perfect system, but as long as you have people training to be RO's, reading the handbooks and striving to be the best they can be and make calls based upon the SASS rules (as opposed to what they think the rules are) and particularly the Golden Rule, most of the time it works with a very high degreee of accuracy.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Let me ask this question-shooter shoots low and hits

the stand- target moves but no hit on the plate -Hit or miss?

Not and edge hit but.... :blink:

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As I've said on more posts than this I'm really new to this sport, but I do wonder, if the BOD goes to the shooter, then it would seem that a single spotter calling a hit would be a hit. If it takes a majority, to get a hit, then element of doubt is still there because at least one person said it was a hit. Kind of like guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it only takes one no vote and at the very least it's a hung jury (gotta love that term). I'm probably wrong, but where am I off in my reasoning?

,

 

 

You may be more right than many of the old hands.

 

prs

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Let me ask this question-shooter shoots low and hits

the stand- target moves but no hit on the plate -Hit or miss?

Not and edge hit but.... :blink:

 

 

A shot that MISSES the intended target is a miss.

The only exception would be a shot that misses the intended target, but strikes another target designated for the same firearm - which would be a "P".

 

Target stand strikes are one of the reasons that a spotter must be using ALL of their senses while spotting, as sometimes a stand will give off a really nice ding and if trying to spot only by ear, the spotter may count incorrectly.

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From the RO I Handbook:

 

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can

question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best

advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

 

 

Thats all well and good and thats the rules. The RO can ask me all day long "...location of misses." What you mean? which side and by how far the miss was? I may tell him that I don't rightly know anymore which gun with which bullet he missed with and by how far. Ya see, the shooter shoots and I am carefully watching, listening, observing and in that split second, I made a judgement call if it is a hit, miss, procedural or what not. If I determine it is a miss, I hold out a finger and continue to the next target to evaluate to see if the target was engaged properly. At the end of the course of fire for that shooter, I hold up my hand with the approperte number of fingers extended to indicate number of misses. The RO may have seen something different than I, but thats the way it goes. I don't believe I have to explain myself or to justify my count. If there is doubt in my mind, then I would never have held up a finger for that shot. I trust the other two spotters are doing the same. I believe the RO should stay out of the counting business. I have seen timid spotters back down from a strong gruff RO to avoid a potential conflict.

 

Side note, I've seen people from time to time from the peanut gallery stand near a spotter and loud enough to be hear, say "edger" when there was a miss I wonder if the intend is to influence the spotter or to put doubt in their mind?

 

Carry on folks.

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A shot that MISSES the intended target is a miss.

The only exception would be a shot that misses the intended target, but strikes another target designated for the same firearm - which would be a "P".

 

 

I was always tolt

that a miss can not cause a Pee, its a miss

 

mileage will vary

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Not time to repaint the targets, but I'm going to take my field glasses to the next shoot, have em in the cart, saves going downrange.

How hard is that? Problem solved.

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I've been at this long enough to have seen some of the best - and some of the worst - spotters at work. The game relies on their judgement. Given the willingness of the average posse member to help, regardess of ability, and the median age of this sport, coupled with the amazing speed of many of our shooters, I like the idea that the Benefit of Doubt goes to the shooter. To that end, as a timer operator, I have occasionally queried spotters if I have seen that strangely located impact or clearly heard the tzing of lead against steel.

 

But that's as far as a timer operater can go. There is no browbeating involved.

 

The flip side of this discussion was the excellent point of view once offered to me by by Handlebar Doc; "I'm supposed to be a champion. It's my fault, if I didn't hit it solid..."

 

Cheers,

FJT

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Last Saturday, last stage I put a pistol round dead in the middle of the VERY large steel bar holding the SASS marshal pistol target. You could distinctly see the round gray impact. The posse was so impressed they refused to call it a miss. I argued loud and long that it was a miss to no avail. Oh well, made no diff. Still came in 5th out of 7.

 

If the targets get any closer you wouldn't have to go down range to paint, just stick a brush on the end of a 10 foot pole and do it from the firing line. Where's that tongue in cheek smiley...

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I was always tolt

that a miss can not cause a Pee, its a miss

 

That is a good rule of thumb, but you have to know to which situations that the rule applies. In the case Creeker was talking about, missing the target you were supposed to hit and instead hitting another target of the same type, is a P IF the targets are "spaced well enough", which of course is NOT defined in any of the rule books. And the rule of thumb does not literally appear in the rule books, either.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Let me ask this question-shooter shoots low and hits

the stand- target moves but no hit on the plate -Hit or miss?

Not and edge hit but.... :blink:

Unless bullet ricochets off the stand and hits the target it is a miss. Normally a miss if you hit the stand.

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Unless bullet ricochets off the stand and hits the target it is a miss. Normally a miss if you hit the stand.

 

 

RUT-ROW! Almost invariably some tiny fragment of that boolit will make contact with the target. 'tarnation! In a gunfight, a shooter would much prefer to blast off his opponent's foot as to miss altogether! ;-)

 

prs

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Want to have a bad day of calls just shoot warthog loads with no wind. I shot a match and was clean for all stages until the last. We have what are called dead targets on some of our stages. I mean big pieces of steel that are anchored down and don't give that classic ring. I shoot 44-40 with 35 grs of 2F powder and a 210 gr bullet. There is no doubt on any target that moves as it will swing the heck out of it. This one target might give a thud when hit and it might not. Last Saturday I was looking down my sights and saw the bullet impact dead center. It was my last shot. I pick up my long guns and head towards the unloading table. I overhear the time with one miss. I stopped and asked when was my miss and the spotters were quick to say on your last shot. I shook my head and knew that I had been hit again by the big cloud of White smoke. I knew that I had hit that target but I also knew that the BMW being given away was not the color my wife wanted. I decided to unload and go home after another good day of BP shooting.

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That is a good rule of thumb, but you have to know to which situations that the rule applies. In the case Creeker was talking about, missing the target you were supposed to hit and instead hitting another target of the same type, is a P IF the targets are "spaced well enough", which of course is NOT defined in any of the rule books. And the rule of thumb does not literally appear in the rule books, either.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

lets say its "sweep targets 1-2-3-4-5 in that order

 

you hit

1-2-2-3-4 yup thats a pee

but iff you hit

1-2-2-4-5 and never engaged target three

why aint that a miss?

 

how would you know intent (did the shooter aim the third shot at target 3???? or did they aim at 2?) especially,,,,if the targets were spaced well apart, as you say above

aint the lessor of the two penaties combined with benifit of the doubt

should-unt that ::::equal a miss, instead of a p?????

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that means that you would have to skip a target

example:::::::sweep pistol targets in order 1-5

1-2-3-4-5

 

you hit

1-2-2-4-5 yup thats a pee

3 was never engaged (per say)

 

how would you know intent (did the shooter aim the third shot at target 3???? or did they aim at 2?) especially,,,,if the targets were spaced well apart, as you say above

aint the lessor of the two penaties combined with benifit of the doubt

should-unt that ::::equal a miss, instead of a p?????

 

 

The rules are written so that the spotters should NEVER have to know the shooter's intent, only the shooter's results.

 

You give an example of the shooter HITTING 1-2-2-4-5 when the stage called for 1-2-3-4-5. If the targets are spaced far enough apart that the spotters don't believe that a shot aimed at 3 would hit 2 or 4, then they have to give a P for the "targets not hit in the correct sequence". We just about HAVE to ignore intent - concentrate just on the results.

 

Now, if target 2 and target 3 are very close together (and THAT is not quantified in the rule book), then hitting 2 instead of 3 on the third shot, according to 2010 revisions of the rules, should probably be called a Miss rather than a P.

 

Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be

scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at

all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine

the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.

 

You unfortunately will not find this explicitly in the Miss Flowchart, where it should be included in the logic of how to call misses and P's.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Now, if target 2 and target 3 are very close together (and THAT is not quantified in the rule book), then hitting 2 instead of 3 on the third shot, according to 2010 revisions of the rules, should probably be called a Miss rather than a P.

 

 

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

that is my point

it was a miss

thanks

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lets say its "sweep targets 1-2-3-4-5 in that order

 

you hit

1-2-2-3-4 yup thats a pee

but iff you hit

1-2-2-4-5 and never engaged target three

why aint that a miss?

 

how would you know intent (did the shooter aim the third shot at target 3???? or did they aim at 2?) especially,,,,if the targets were spaced well apart, as you say above

aint the lessor of the two penaties combined with benifit of the doubt

should-unt that ::::equal a miss, instead of a p?????

 

You're kidding right.....You shoot 1-2-2-4-5 instead of 1-2-3-4-5 and you get a P. That is the very definition of a P.......Your intentions don't really matter.......every P I have received was ALWAYS unintentional.

 

Disclaimer number 1......of course this is based on the ability to get a "clean miss" (oxymoron)

 

Stan

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The "Powers That Be" determined that scoring should be done by what target was hit and not what target was being aimed at.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

lets say its "sweep targets 1-2-3-4-5 in that order

 

you hit

1-2-2-3-4 yup thats a pee

but iff you hit

1-2-2-4-5 and never engaged target three

why aint that a miss?

 

how would you know intent (did the shooter aim the third shot at target 3???? or did they aim at 2?) especially,,,,if the targets were spaced well apart, as you say above

aint the lessor of the two penaties combined with benifit of the doubt

should-unt that ::::equal a miss, instead of a p?????

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that is my point

 

Nope, I believe you just decided to mis-quote the reply.

 

A shot is not a miss until you fail to hit a target or the right type. In your example, shot 3 hit a target of the right type - just the wrong sequence! That makes it a P, until you get the "overlapping target" exclusion, which reduces it, in that VERY SPECIAL CASE, to a miss.

 

Good luck, GJ

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