Edge hits on targets

[Blastmaster]

We have had a lively discussison about duties of the TO, duties of the Spotters, Benefit of the Doubt goes to the shooter, "a hit is a hit...",, an edger is a hit and so forth.

 

For a new topic I am wondering and asking the fire, have we gone to far in giving the benefit of the doubt to shooters with edgers that only "one" spotter witnessed? or even that one was unsure till he had to go down range and look? The other two spotters didn't see it but then changed their count only on the word of that one spotter, or after close forensic examination down range, a lead paint mark on the target edge was discovered?

 

Just wondering, it seems to happen about every match.

 

 

Blastmaster

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Yes, I have occasionally changed my count. When the RO queries the spotters, if one of them mentions that he saw an edge hit while I thought it was a miss, I will usually change my count. In each case, I did not see clear evidence of a miss, as in a splash in the dirt behind the target. It falls under the rule that if I ain't sure that it is a miss, then it is a hit. We never interrupt the game to go down range to check the targets for edge hits. If a spotter sees an edge hit, we take his word for it. Other spotters do as they wish, but not having perfect eyesight I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. And many times I have awarded the shooter more hits than the other spotters just because I could not be sure of a miss.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Blastmaster,

 

to answer your 1st question about going to far in giving BOD on edgers.....Not in my opinion.

 

I've been in similar situation like Driftwood and have changed my 'Miss' to a hit after being shown I was wrong.

 

I was at a BIG match one year and a TOP SHOOTER was on the line. Rarely ever misses a shot.

 

I called a Miss. One spotter showed me an edge hit and from her standing position, it was clear to see.

I moved back to my original standing position to see why I missed that call and that edger became invisible again from that position. It somehow blended in with the background colors. When I moved a couple feet to my right, the edger was clearly visible again.

 

So, I've learnt from experience that even when I give my fullest attention to the situation, I can incorrectly make a call as well as anyone.

 

 

..........Widder

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

I personally scan the edge of each target for previous edge hits before a shooter starts.

 

Unless targets are painted after each shooter, the number of edge hits will build as the match proceeds and pointing one out to me means nothing unless I saw it hit.

 

The argument that the shooter is a top shooter and rarely misses don't buy a hit from me.

 

If only one shooter saw it they cannot trump the other two. If your spotters have to make team decisions on a hit, you need new spotters.

 

This is not a perfect system but it is the best we got unless you repaint or video everything. It is a game.

[Colt McAllister]

Have we gone to far with benefit always going to the shooter? I'd say yes. I see probably 3 plain misses counted as hits to every 1 edge hit counted as misses. Now I can't really always blame the spotters for this. They are doing the best they can. With most shooters wanting big close targets for maximum fun this is going to happen. It's just the nature of the beast. Remember as targets get closer split times get shorter. This makes it very dificult for the average shooter to spot. It also tends to happen more when there are multiple shots on big close targets. I used tell shootrs that you will loose 50% of edge hits so try to hit the targets in the middle. Now I'd say you will get 80% of your edge hits going your way as a shooter. No one wants to be the spoter that calls two misses on one stage and cost a shooter the match, but every good shooter I know has the attitude of "if I hit the target where I was suppose to I wouldn't have gotten dinged for a miss"

 

Does it matter, to most no. Can it change the outcome of a match, absolutely I've seen it!

[Dubious Don #56333]

Seen lots of them hits that woulda been misses if the shooter in question hadda been shooting a 37 instead of a 38. Still a hit.

 

Do Spotters fail to see edgers? all the time. I won't go into the "spotter rule" or "benefit of doubt goes to..." but there ain't nothing wrong when two spotters call a miss, one who CLEARLY saw the edger explains and them other two spotters change their minds.

 

I've RO'd plenty of times where I saw an edge hit (because I prefer to stand where I can see the shooter's gun AND the target when possible) but none of the spotters did. In these cases or where one other spotter saw it like I did but the other two didn't I give'em the Rattler John speech. It goes something like "You be the spotters and its yer call BUT, see that little mark right there on the edge? That would be a shot from### and what I saw was... now you spotters decide and tell me the count, it ain't my call its yours and by the way, this ain't no majority confab vote, y'all gotta make up your OWN mind (so stop lookin at the other spotters)

 

We have had a lively discussison about duties of the TO, duties of the Spotters, Benefit of the Doubt goes to the shooter, "a hit is a hit...",, an edger is a hit and so forth.

 

For a new topic I am wondering and asking the fire, have we gone to far in giving the benefit of the doubt to shooters with edgers that only "one" spotter witnessed? or even that one was unsure till he had to go down range and look? The other two spotters didn't see it but then changed their count only on the word of that one spotter, or after close forensic examination down range, a lead paint mark on the target edge was discovered?

 

Just wondering, it seems to happen about every match.

 

 

Blastmaster

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I'll never forget an incident that happened at the first big shoot I went to. A shooter who was trying to get a clean match had all 3 spotters call a miss. He was pissed. Still pouting at the loading table on the next stage I heard a friend of his tell him, "Well, you just should have hit it better."

 

I tend to think that was sage advice.

 

Possum

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Maybe half the time another spotter points out an edge hit and I go along. Multiple reasons for the change including, spotter positions, prop interference in seeing odd ricochets, etc. I sure do not automatically go along. Some times another spotter says it was an edge hit and it was clearly a target stand hit and I do not go along and point out the target stand hit. Who was shooting has no bearing.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I knew when I put in my post about a Top Shooter at a Big match, it would catch some attention and I started to not put that in my post. BUT, I wanted to indicate more to the effect that some of us spotters aren't hesitant to call a miss when we see the miss, even on top gun shooters.

 

Yep, from my view, I saw the bullet strike the ground at an odd spot on the ground. When pointed out the position of the edge hit, the angle of the ground hit became more understanding as to the situation.

 

Anyhow, I was giving as much info about the situation as possible, whether necessary or not. Afterall, Top Guns can get an edge hit just as easy as a newbie.

 

 

..........Widder

[Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L]

The most difficult thing, and the most important , that we do at a match is spot for his and misses. As Colt said it can be VERY difficult for a slow or even average shooter to spot for a fast one, add to that a wide stage design and a few props to obstruct a perfect viewing angle and we have a perfect opportunity for mistakes to be made. As an shooter and instructor I believe, and teach that the spotter's should be encouraged to discuss the edge hit issue among themselves. I mean if you are spotting and the shooter has a potential edge hit that is on the other spotters side of the berm and they clearly see it and you don't why would you not take their word as they were in a better position than you to make that call CORRECTLY. lets remember that correct calls are what we all are trying to achieve here. We don't paint the targets between shooters so we have to have spotters. this system by it's nature has flaws and they are best mitigated by the spotters trusting each other if there is a clear discrepancy at hand. Now if the timer is the only one who saw it then the shooter will probably get the miss as the timer can NEVER overrule the spotters on hits and misses.

 

Remember many in this game are not hearing or seeing as well as they did just a few years ago much less than as young people. Lets try to give the shooters as fair a shake as possible please. This does not include letting the shooters buddies shill for them at a match. If that happens then the spotters must be replaced by the timer operator immediately.

 

-Deadlee

[Stormy Reinz, SASS #41707]

As others have noted, if I get an edge hit and called for a miss i do not get upset. I am a better shooter than that and should have put it where it counts.

 

But, when I DO get mad is when the counters have no common sense at all, as in a case where you edge it and the bullet strikes dirt 6 to 10 feet angled away from the target due to deflection and they call it a miss.

 

How obvious can you get? Not many shooters are THAT bad of a shot to miss by that much!

 

Have it happen from time to time.

[ol poke SASS 57567]

Change my mind when spotting? Nope. I call 'em as I see 'em, and I expect the other two spotters to do the same. I don't have a problem if I call a miss and the other two say "edge hit". If two spotters see a miss, and one sees an edge hit, it's 2 to 1, so its a miss! I do have a problem with spotters chaging their minds because one opinion happpens to differ. If'n we all hafta agree, why don't we go with one spotter?

 

ol' poke.

[Blastmaster]

Change my mind when spotting? Nope. I call 'em as I see 'em, and I expect the other two spotters to do the same. I don't have a problem if I call a miss and the other two say "edge hit". If two spotters see a miss, and one sees an edge hit, it's 2 to 1, so its a miss! I do have a problem with spotters chaging their minds because one opinion happpens to differ. If'n we all hafta agree, why don't we go with one spotter?

 

ol' poke.

 

 

I agree.... Turn around w/o looking at everyone and call them like you see them... No community effort.

 

Listen to your gut instinct with all your other sensorss (eyes, ears, what you know). If your gut feelings have doubt, then give the BOD to the shooter.

 

But that is just me.

 

Blastmaster

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

As others have noted, if I get an edge hit and called for a miss i do not get upset. I am a better shooter than that and should have put it where it counts.

 

But, when I DO get mad is when the counters have no common sense at all, as in a case where you edge it and the bullet strikes dirt 6 to 10 feet angled away from the target due to deflection and they call it a miss.

 

How obvious can you get? Not many shooters are THAT bad of a shot to miss by that much!

 

Have it happen from time to time.

Hi Stormy,

 

Very good point. I see it happen too.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Assassin]

When repainting targets, always paint around the edges.

 

LL'

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

As others have noted, if I get an edge hit and called for a miss i do not get upset. I am a better shooter than that and should have put it where it counts.

 

But, when I DO get mad is when the counters have no common sense at all, as in a case where you edge it and the bullet strikes dirt 6 to 10 feet angled away from the target due to deflection and they call it a miss.

 

How obvious can you get? Not many shooters are THAT bad of a shot to miss by that much!

 

Have it happen from time to time.

 

When that happens it is almost always someone new and someone needs to explain to them that if the gun barrel doesn't suddenly swing way off target, there's only one way for that bullet to strike where it did.

 

Maybe I'm getting mellow in my old age but I've had enough clear misses called hits that I try not to get upset over the occasional bad miss call. It's kind of like arguing balls and strikes.

[Cypress Sun]

I've had clear edge hits called misses. I've had clear misses called hits. It all seems to equal out somehow. If I see an edge hit (as a spotter) I'll tell the other spotters what I saw, it's up to them to change their call. If I did not see an edge hit but another spotter did, I may change my call based upon a visual inspection of the target. One thing that I do when I start to spot is look at all of the targets to see where (if any) edge hits already exist. I'm sure I have made bad calls on misses before, after all I'm human. For me to call a miss, I have to be 100% sure in my own mind that it was in fact a miss........but as I said, I'm human.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Its yer first stage of the day so

picture yer self up against the likes of Matt Dillon

the sun is in yer eyes, only cuz of matts carefull plan

 

its time to draw agaist him, you know yer faster but

Matt does an edge hit on yer gun handling wrist (on purpose) the script said so

and you did NOT even clear leather yet

 

the bruning and stinging >suprises< the heck out of you

as

you hear the counters in their quandry

 

three of em mosey yer way, to inspect

yep, they say, yer right

its a edge hit

 

the whole time, you are still suprised at how much pain there is

soon the doc shows up, says the same thing "yup, its an edge hit"

then what does matt do

he puts hand cuffs right on yer boo-boo

 

edge hits hurt, therefore they R

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I like to spot. Even at my age I have darn good (20/15 corrected) vision. It used to be 20/07...oh for those days again. But, we can all make mistakes. Maybe you weren't in the right position to see it? Maybe the RO or the shooter blocked your view or an unthinking brass picker and you relied on the DING of a dead target? At a big match I move to make sure that I can see the whole target array. Many spotters don't do that and most PM's don't instruct it either.

 

At a big shoot recently I lingered too long on a target and SAW the strike on the lower corner. The RO polled the spotters and the only one in position called it a hit. The other two called (1) pistol miss and the other (1) rifle miss having seen the pistol edger. If I hadn't seen it myownself I never would have protested the call. It's the only call that I've ever protested. The edge hit was clear if you looked.

 

So to answer the OP... no I don't think we over indulge the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes we DO over think it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

When repainting targets, always paint around the edges.

 

LL'

AND always paint the target stand where it is visible at the edge of a target for at least 6 inches away from the steel!

 

When you hear a hit, but don't see it, and see just a little bit of target wiggle, always look for a target stand/support hit.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Doc Shapiro]

Scoring in this game is subjective. Hits and misses are not called by examination of a freshly painted target. They are judgment calls. Some of which will be wrong. Calls will be in your favor, and calls will fall out against you. Spotters do the best job they can. BOD should always favor the shooter.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

For those of you that are not willing to change your call, remember the RO is often in the absolute best position to see an edge hit. He is standing directly behind the shooter and not blocked by a prop or whatever. He can generally see dirt fly in the wrong direction for a simple miss. If he does see an edge hit and most everyone calls it a miss the RO should tell the spotters what he saw and see if any change their minds. For those of you with a firm closed mind, maybe the unloading table or brass picker would be a better job. At all the monthly matches I attend, the only time the targets are painted are at the start of the day.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

The benefit of the doubt should always go to the shooter. If one of the spotters sees a hit, its a hit. Not all the spotters have the ideal vantage point for every target, so if one sees an edge hit and others don't its not surprising. I don't see a problem.

[Blastmaster]

For those of you that are not willing to change your call, remember the RO is often in the absolute best position to see an edge hit. He is standing directly behind the shooter and not blocked by a prop or whatever. He can generally see dirt fly in the wrong direction for a simple miss. If he does see an edge hit and most everyone calls it a miss the RO should tell the spotters what he saw and see if any change their minds. For those of you with a firm closed mind, maybe the unloading table or brass picker would be a better job. At all the monthly matches I attend, the only time the targets are painted are at the start of the day.

 

While RO'ing I look at the shooters gun, his hands, count rounds, his gun transitions, a closed restaged rifle action or hull in the restaged SG, barrel direction, squibs, antisipating his next move to safely assist if he has a brain fade AND antisipate his movement so I am out of his way. I haven't got time to be spotting for hits. I prefer NOT to be looking at the targets for hits, that is the Spotters jobs to do. I have at times asked the spotters if they are sure of their call if there is a rubarb in their assesments of hits/misses/procedural. I don't listen to the peanut gallery either nor when I am in the peanut gallery, I don't voice my opinion either. I let the spotters and RO work it out.

 

I guess the question for you is: Do you base your score when spotting by committee or what you truely believe happened?

 

Lastly, painting targets. Only happens at the beginning of the match and then again for the final round of a Top Gun Shoot Off.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Paint the targets after every shooter. Every shooter deserves a clean target. Only takes a few seconds to touch up a hit or two which is the most you have on all but dumps. Problem solved. No subjective calls. No having to put up with inept decrepit spotters.

 

We should quit calling edgers hits. After all the majority of the bullet failed to impact the target. The preponderance of the mass of the projectile went sailing by in clear air. When Duke and Roy got grazed they were unfazed and continued to march to save the day. Edgers should be misses, unless it was more on the steel than off.

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

Paint the targets after every shooter. Every shooter deserves a clean target. Only takes a few seconds to touch up a hit or two which is the most you have on all but dumps. Problem solved. No subjective calls. No having to put up with inept decrepit spotters.

 

We should quit calling edgers hits. After all the majority of the bullet failed to impact the target. The preponderance of the mass of the projectile went sailing by in clear air. When Duke and Roy got grazed they were unfazed and continued to march to save the day. Edgers should be misses, unless it was more on the steel than off.

 

Sure they did, they also got hit by a--------------------------blank.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Lastly, painting targets. Only happens at the beginning of the match and then again for the final round of a Top Gun Shoot Off.

 

Believe you need to get to more big matches. Targets got painted between posses at the last Annual, last State match, last Regional, last National and last World Championship that I attended during 2010 and so far in 2011.

 

Painting between shooters is almost impossible (due to time constraints). Painting only once a day provides little benefit. Painting between posses helps the shooter a little and the spotters a lot, if your range is bermed sufficiently to allow it.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Blastmaster]

Believe you need to get to more big matches. Targets got painted between posses at the last Annual, last State match, last Regional, last National and last World Championship that I attended during 2010 and so far in 2011.

 

Painting between shooters is almost impossible (due to time constraints). Painting only once a day provides little benefit. Painting between posses helps the shooter a little and the spotters a lot, if your range is bermed sufficiently to allow it.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Yer right. I don't attend the big matches.

 

I did speak rather quickly, there is one club that does paint between posses at their monthly. Probably others I've attended do to. My mistake.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

What time constraints??? ONE pard/ette can easily touch up the one or two impacts on every target way mo faster than the brass shaggers can call it good on their easterbrassegg hunt.

 

No that dog won't hunt. The reason I can't get any traction for this ideer is that it ain't the way we've always done it. Kinda like the 5 monkeys and the ladder. In other words inertia. And that's a pretty p poor excuse/reason.

[Shooting Bull]

The benefit of the doubt should always go to the shooter. If one of the spotters sees a hit, its a hit. Not all the spotters have the ideal vantage point for every target, so if one sees an edge hit and others don't its not surprising. I don't see a problem.

 

I don't think that's correct. I also think this is what the OP was referring to when he said "benefit of the doubt" has gone too far.

 

TO gets three volunteers to count. After each shooter is done firing the TO polls the shooters. If two say one miss and one says clean, the shooter gets a miss. I'm pretty sure that's the way it was taught in the RO classes I went to.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

I don;t think it's gone too far. When I see an edger I let the other spotters know and point out the "hit" on the target. They can use the info as they wish and the TO can take it from there. If we all had to hit the target bullseye center we wouldn't be talking about edge hits. We wouldn't be talking about CAS either!

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

If two spotters out of three say it's a hit, it's a hit. If two out of three say it's a miss, it's a miss. There should be no going down range to examine the forensic evidence, checking paint chips, changing opinions based on other spotters' calls, etc. Spotters should call it like they see it, and the timer operator assesses what two out of three say. THE TIMER OPERATOR SHOULD NEVER COUNT MISSES. He / she is charged with safety and should be watching the shooter for unsafe acts. Bottom line, period, and exclamation point.

 

This game is supposed to be simpler, easier, and faster to administrate than our "practical" shooting compadres' games.

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

For those of you that are not willing to change your call, remember the RO is often in the absolute best position to see an edge hit. He is standing directly behind the shooter and not blocked by a prop or whatever. He can generally see dirt fly in the wrong direction for a simple miss. If he does see an edge hit and most everyone calls it a miss the RO should tell the spotters what he saw and see if any change their minds. For those of you with a firm closed mind, maybe the unloading table or brass picker would be a better job. At all the monthly matches I attend, the only time the targets are painted are at the start of the day.

 

Pard, this is blatantly against the RO manual. ROs do NOT COUNT MISSES / HITS. ROs are charged with safety and are supposed to be watching the shooter / gun. Counters count hits and misses, and there are supposed to be three because any split decision will be 2-1. The two win, and the RO is not supposed to supersede them. The RO can assess safety penalties, etc., but not count his / misses.

[Guest]

As far as spotting goes I put myself in the best position to see/ count hits/ misses. Once pooled by the R/O I do not change my count. If asked right then and there I can give an account of which gun or target. If the question is asked after another shooter has started I refer the question to the scorer and what is written down.

 

Calling a down range to paint targets between shooters is a huge time constraint, not to mention the cost of paint. Also it stops all loading and un-loading at the tables.

 

JMHO, good luck, Castalia

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

ROs are charged with safety and are supposed to be watching the shooter / gun.

 

As RO/TO, my job is to safely assist the shooter thru the stage.

That ASSISTANCE is NOT limited to only hulls in shotguns, open levers and breaking the 170.

It includes round counting, sequence position and YES, even watching the targets

(be hard to assist them with target order - if I was not watching where they are shooting, now wouldn't it?), in the course of watching those targets - I MAY see an edge hit or a target stand strike and be able to give additional information to the spotters.

 

I will not over rule the spotters - that is not my job, but to say that I cannot offer information for the spotters to consider, is foolish AND wrong.

My intent is that the shooter receive an accurate score - and I will make every effort to ensure that happens...

And that includes questioning the spotters, when I see something they may have missed.