G. P. Cobb Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 My question is, "where was the LT officer when this revolver was being loaded and verified"? They always have me tip mine to the side to verify one under hammer.
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Well, G.P. down here in the great state it is exceedingly uncommon to have an LTO. In fact I would say over 90 per cent of matches in TX don't utilize 'em. Even the State match. In fact, sometimes we are too short handed around these parts to even have an ULTO.
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 In fact, sometimes we are too short handed around these parts to even have an ULTO. I know the "great state" is a big place, but I have shot at 6 different clubs and have never seen a match where there was not a ULTO always present.
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 My question is, "where was the LT officer when this revolver was being loaded and verified"? They always have me tip mine to the side to verify one under hammer. Where was it said that he started with one under the hammer????? Except for a few guessing.
G. P. Cobb Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Where was it said that he started with one under the hammer????? Except for a few guessing. ______________ Thank you, The guessers above assumed that, I didn't, I just asked if there was an LTO and one under hammer. Sorry I asked.
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 The questions about whether the revolver came frm the loading table with hammer down on a live round is merely exploring ANOTHER REAL possibility of what happened. Most previous posters have been ready to accept that there was a round that did not fire. There is no info from the OP that supports that directly. There is also a possibility that the shooter cycled hammer but did not really fire it. Why is it so hard to admit that another possibility exists? You are only guessing/assuming that the revolver started with hammer down on an empty chamber.
Anvil Al #59168 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 That is a very bad assumption. Many rounds that do not fire(for various reasons) successfully the first time may fire if given another opportunity. This one did, in fact. From the OP'er. Seems he is saying it was that it was hit. And then when tried again it fired. That is where I am getting the info. From the OP'er. And yes the other could happen. But some sure seem to want to jump to that right away. Sounds like they are in a hurry to find a way to give a SDQ.
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I know the "great state" is a big place, but I have shot at 6 different clubs and have never seen a match where there was not a ULTO always present. We had 7 shooters total last Saturday. We have shot the match with as few as 4. If'n ye had showed up we would have gladly let you work the ULT all ye wanted to. Without you, we just didn't have the personnel.
Griff Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 I guess I could open this up to a free-for-all by asking the question:What is more dangerous, a revolver in a holster with a live round at an unknown index position or a 73 laying on a table with a spent case on the lifter? I'm probably going to regrouet that one. Outside of the fact that a '73 probably can't physically lay on the table with a spent case on the lifter since the lifter acts as the ejector on any of the toggle-links so that if the action's fully open, the lifter is above the mortise and a case might lay on the table next to the lifter, it won't likely be 'on it"; so if we substitute a Marlin, that's a good question, and worthy of careful consideration. And I'll try to answer it sincerely, even if not so concisely. Since we should all be able to read the rule books and ascertain the "official" answer, I'll give ya my personal take, which is an assessment of the number of steps it will take for a live round to be placed "in battery" (live round in chamber, action closed). In the case of the rifle there's actually two basic conditions it can be in, In the least onerous one, the action is open; it is easy enough to see whether a live round is in the chamber, what might not be so readily determined is IF a live round is still in the magazine on some action types. So at a minimum one has to; 1 - close the action to put the empty under extractor, and lower the carrier to allow a fresh cartridge onto it; 2 - open the action to eject the previous empty and position a live round to feed the next round (if any); 3 - close the action feeding the cartridge and placing the gun in battery (ready to fire). If for some reason the action closes as it's laid down with an offensive empty case on the carrier, you've just eliminated step one. Both of those scenarios pre-suppose at least one live round remains in the magazine. Which, in the interests of maintaining the utmost high standards for safety, is not a bad supposition. I'll also forgo discussion of action types and why only certain action types have this propensity. So, the handgun... hammer down, holstered, cartridges in an unknown condition... what are the minimum number necessary for it to be in battery? Worst case scenario = hammer down on a live cartridge is only a single blow to the hammer away from discharging. However, what exactly are the odds of a holstered handgun getting a blow to the hammer sufficient to collapse the crush the primer case against the anvil? The amount of force may vary depending on the brand of primer, no? Howsoever, let us say both the shooter and RO know, thru careful counting of the rounds fired and cycling of the cylinder that the hammer is down on the last round fired. The exact number of steps will equal twice the number of times the hammer needs to be pulled back to rotate that chamber under the hammer again. If, as similarly to the rifle we count the pulling of the hammer and the subsequent pulling of the trigger as 2 steps. For it does take those two steps to make a single action fire. Now, as to why the rules exist in the form they do. I honestly do not know... but have discussed them with folks. And almost all have come to the same conclusion. In the case of the rifle; just how fast can the action be cycled? Can you stop a pard while he's holding the gun and you have your hands hangin' ape-like at your sides? I don't think so. In which case you just MIGHT have a hot gun on the line. In the case of the handgun... it's very easy to count the number of rounds fired. It's either five or some number less. This IS the ROs job, to KNOW the condition of the handgun when it's returned to leather. If the RO is doing their job properly, they're watching the gun and the shooter's operation thereof. I don't know about other ROs, but I do count shots... and look for the shooter's handling during transitions, etc. Ultimately, it's the shooter's decision whether to hand off a gun that's failed to fire, declare the malfunction or to press on and see if the round will go off if cycled again. THAT is the time it gets tricky. Let's see, was it the 2nd round or the 3rd that failed to fire? Do I want to put in the holster not knowing, or hand it off? It seems a no-brainer to me. But, then again, the buzzer has gone off and disconnected the brain from the body! This just might be where the RO steps in and saves the shooter from that possible SDQ; "...hand me that shootin' iron son, I believe you have a live round under the hammer..." or some such. Frankly, whether the shooter complains that I interfered or not is immaterial and I could care less! If at this point the shooter was still in the process of trying to salvage his stage, I'd be more'n likely to hand off the gun... if the person next to me was known to me and was aware by my tellin' him the gun was "HOT". Otherwise I might just hold it myownself and walk it to the unloading table and await the shooter to explain what the problem was and get the gun cleared... Any penalties to be applied can be determined at that time. Therein lies your answer. In all reality, probably no danger exists from either gun at the time the rules call an infraction and for a penalty. However, the firearm might only be a heartbeat away from a VERY dangerous condition. Don't get your Depends all overloaded with the what-if's and how-comes of the situation... look at it solely as a liability issue. If as an RO you simply shrugged off every instance of a empty case left in a long gun, what happens when it's that 1 out of a million time that it WAS in fact, a loaded round? Never had a shooter cycle the action on his rifle and Lord Gawd Almighty, out flies a loaded round? It'll loosen your colin. Ever had someone walk up and start fondling their guns at the loading table while workers are downrange fixin' a broken target! It'll raise your blood pressure. If it don't, you might not be that good an RO. Those things are the type of things that happen when just plain ol' well-meaning and normally responsible folks get distracted or lose their attention. Do we have loading officers (functionally if not literally), for no simple good reason... no... we want to ensure to the extent possible that folks ONLY load the required number of rounds in their firearms. However, we should also recognize that we're all human and sometimes fail to perform to perfection. Sometimes redundancy in safety systems isn't BAD. You been shot? I'm here to tell ya, it HURTS! Even the little scratch kind that only leaves a itty-bitty lil' furrow in the epidermis tends to make ya shy away from gettin' another. Not to pick, but... We had 7 shooters total last Saturday. We have shot the match with as few as 4. If'n ye had showed up we would have gladly let you work the ULT all ye wanted to. Without you, we just didn't have the personnel. we have had the same issue from time to time... we use the "buddy" system... while you load the person "on deck" acts as the LTO, the shooter before you acts as the ULTO for you... nobody is standing around for too long. I'm constantly being reminded that we don't have an endless supply of folks, and sometimes you just gotta do more'n one function. Keepin' up the form of the functions, by whatever methods does increase the workload for all, but... it also imbues a set of habits that can move pretty seamlessly from a match with 7 folks to one with 400. IMNSHO, relaxing safety isn't an option for responsible types. (That ain't me... I try to make sure someone else is tho')! Feel free to jump in there anywhere. Mack, I don't know if I answered your question, but hope I gave you some food for thought. Look forward to meetin' ya...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Posted January 26, 2011 Feel free to jump in there anywhere. Mack, I don't know if I answered your question, but hope I gave you some food for thought. Look forward to meetin' ya... I think all the relevant info for the original question came out long time ago. My post on the rifle question just sort of stirred the pot and turned it into a discussion topic.
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