What's the call

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

At the start of a stage, the shooter is instructed to engage 5 KD's with pistols until all 5 are down. Remaining rounds are to be placed on dump target.

 

Shooter cycles the first pistol 5 times firing only 4 rounds and knocking down 3 KD's. Then, reholsters first pistol, draws second and finishes per stage instructions; knocking town the last 2 KD's and dumping 3 on the dump target.

 

What is the proper call?

 

 

Added

 

Instructions were to load 10 pistol

 

At the unload table there was a live round in the first pistol, not under the hammer.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I will not attempt to argue with PWB.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

OP updated

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

One 5-second MISS for the unfired round.

[Grizzly Dave]

Page 24, RO I handbook under penalty overview for 5 second penalties

 

* Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

There clearly was an unfired round. One 5 second penalty.

 

edit to fix my reference, originally said "shooters handbook" which ain't right.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

One 5-second MISS for the unfired round.

 

 

What about reholstering the pistol with a live round and having no way of knowing wheter there is a live round under the hammer?

[BIG TIM]

Stage Instuction said shoot Knock downs until all are down put remaining rounds on dump target. One un-fired round equals 5 second miss penalty. As for holstering, if you do not know for sure that the un-fired round was under the hammer, no call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What about reholstering the pistol with a live round and having no way of knowing wheter there is a live round under the hammer?

 

NO additional penalty can be assessed until it is determined whether that round is under the hammer or not.

It would have been better if the shooter had declared a malfunction and either staged or handed off the revolver, rather than holster it in an 'unknown' condition. (shooter's choice)

Whether it is holstered or not, it is recommended that the T/O have the shooter either clear that revolver on the line OR notify the ULT officer that there is a round left in that revolver in order to make that determination.

IF the shooter chose to holster it & the unfired round is discovered under the hammer, the penalty is a SDQ.

If not, it's only scored as a MISS.

 

Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification.

SHB pp.19&23 / ROI p.16 / ROII p.9

[Throckmorton,23149]

one miss,but I would have grounded the pistol and not taken the chance on an unsafe holstered gun ,and the chance of a safety penalty.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess when you put that pistol back in the holster, you have a 1 in 6 chance(assuming only 1 misfire) of an SDQ. That is certainly something to remember.

[Cole Younger Requlator]

If the shooter fires 4 and then holsters the firearm-there will be an expended round under the hammer. If the shooter fired 4 and then kept cocking and dropping the hammer in an attempt to fire the 5th round- there is a possibility that there is a live round under the hammer and it should be checked at the Unloading table.

[Charlie Whiskers]

The way I read this is the primer was struck during the cycle process and the round did not go off.If that's the case,then I would assume it is now a dead round no matter where in the cylinder it was at the end of the string.If I read it right,then I would just call it a misfire,not a live round since it was struck.Therefore,a 5 second miss.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

The way I read this is the primer was struck during the cycle process and the round did not go off.If that's the case,then I would assume it is now a dead round no matter where in the cylinder it was at the end of the string.If I read it right,then I would just call it a misfire,not a live round since it was struck.Therefore,a 5 second miss.

 

That is a very bad assumption. Many rounds that do not fire(for various reasons) successfully the first time may fire if given another opportunity. This one did, in fact.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The way I read this is the primer was struck during the cycle process and the round did not go off.If that's the case,then I would assume it is now a dead round no matter where in the cylinder it was at the end of the string.If I read it right,then I would just call it a misfire,not a live round since it was struck.Therefore,a 5 second miss.

 

If the bullet hasn't left the case (whether the primer has been struck or not), it is considered a LIVE/UNFIRED round.

IF that round is under the hammer of a HOLSTERED or staged revolver, the additional SDQ penalty for:

• Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

would apply.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Then I read it wrong.I read it as the shooter cycled the pistol and it didn't go off the 2nd time around.Key word being cycled.To me that means he went around twice.He should have handed the gun off if he'd stopped when it didn't go off the 1st try.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Then I read it wrong.I read it as the shooter cycled the pistol and it didn't go off the 2nd time around.Key word being cycled.To me that means he went around twice.He should have handed the gun off if he'd stopped when it didn't go off the 1st try.

 

Shooter cycles the first pistol 5 times firing only 4 rounds and knocking down 3 KD's. Then, reholsters first pistol,...

OP

 

It wasn't stated which round of the five failed to fire.

If the last trigger pull resulted in a round being fired, the revolver was safe to holster.

If the last hammer drop failed to fire a round, it would be necessary to determine whether the hammer was down on the UNFIRED round, a fired case, or the empty chamber.

Best practice would be to declare a malfunction (ammo failure) and then either stage or hand off the firearm.

[Matthew Duncan]

a miss.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

At the start of a stage, the shooter is instructed to engage 5 KD's with pistols until all 5 are down. Remaining rounds are to be placed on dump target.

 

Shooter cycles the first pistol 5 times firing only 4 rounds and knocking down 3 KD's. Then, reholsters first pistol, draws second and finishes per stage instructions; knocking town the last 2 KD's and dumping 3 on the dump target.

 

What is the proper call?

 

Get new spotters. Per the ROI Handbook:

 

Spotters

- Must never spot for a family member.

- Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were

engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the

Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged

firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an

unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body. Spotters are obligated to

stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in

position to see it or react quickly enough...

- Remember, the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses. His

main function is to assist the competitor through the course of fire, and his memory

can easily be altered if something out of the ordinary happens or if he becomes

occupied coaching a newer shooter through a stage.

 

It may not be that way at your club, but you'll get a chorus of, "One More!" around here if you only shoot four rounds out of your pistol.

 

Best,

 

Okie

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Get new spotters. Per the ROI Handbook:

 

Spotters

- Must never spot for a family member.

- Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were

engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the

Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged

firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an

unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body. Spotters are obligated to

stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in

position to see it or react quickly enough...

- Remember, the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses. His

main function is to assist the competitor through the course of fire, and his memory

can easily be altered if something out of the ordinary happens or if he becomes

occupied coaching a newer shooter through a stage.

 

It may not be that way at your club, but you'll get a chorus of, "One More!" around here if you only shoot four rounds out of your pistol.

 

Best,

 

Okie

 

The chorus was singing, but the shooter was intent on what he was doing and holstered before he realized what had happened. All three spotters knew there were only four rounds fired from the first revolver, but there was a disagreement as to whether there should be a miss or no call.

 

In the end, there was agreement to award 1 miss. That call has been validated in the course of this post.

 

What happened next was not correct, however, according to the information discussed here. The shooter was given a MSV for the live round left in the pistol. Not knowing the exact rule, I did not question the ruling because it seemed to make sense that if the live round were under the hammer it was an SDQ, then it was only reasonable that if it ended up anywhere else you could win a consolation prize of an MSV.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I would add the following. If at the ULT it was determined the unfired round was NOT struck by the FP (but the rest were, no broke gun here), and the gun went "click" on shot number 1, after being observed to have been normally cocked (no slipped hammer), the only reasonable conclusion is he went to the line with a live round under the hammer (and the first click was on the empty chamber, followed by four shots). Now ya got a SDQ.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I would add the following. If at the ULT it was determined the unfired round was NOT struck by the FP (but the rest were, no broke gun here), and the gun went "click" on shot number 1, after being observed to have been normally cocked (no slipped hammer), the only reasonable conclusion is he went to the line with a live round under the hammer (and the first click was on the empty chamber, followed by four shots). Now ya got a SDQ.

 

If the hammer did not come fully back, it could still go click without firing the first round or indenting the primer. The second cock (first full cock) could advance the cylinder to the second round (skipping the first round) and fire the second round. I have half-cock hammers in my pistols to avoid this. Most do not. How many times have we seen someone have to go all the way around because of this? Lots of times.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

In the end, there was agreement to award 1 miss. That call has been validated in the course of this post.

 

What happened next was not correct, however, according to the information discussed here. The shooter was given a MSV for the live round left in the pistol. Not knowing the exact rule, I did not question the ruling because it seemed to make sense that if the live round were under the hammer it was an SDQ, then it was only reasonable that if it ended up anywhere else you could win a consolation prize of an MSV.

 

Howdy Mack,

I edited my reply on post #8 to include the rule "as written" that applies in this situation.

Please note that it is included in ALL of the rulebooks (twice in the SHB).

The earliest reference I can find is in the 2006 "Shooters Handbook" (in the GF section).

 

PWB

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

Howdy Mack,

I edited my reply on post #8 to include the rule "as written" that applies in this situation.

Please note that it is included in ALL of the rulebooks (twice in the SHB).

The earliest reference I can find is in the 2006 "Shooters Handbook" (in the GF section).

 

PWB

 

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

I should have known the rule, but didn't. I was one of the spotters, but was not involved in the MSV decision. Nobody questioned it, so I would not have even known that it was wrong until I read the responses in this thread. The only reason I knew it was given was that I was keeping score at the time and was instructed to add it.

 

This was a monthly shoot at a great club with no Kruegerands included in the prize fund.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Mack, we all make mistakes. I respect the person who admits theirs. Hopefully we all learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. While these 'make the call' threads can sometimes get testy, I usually learn something.

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

I would add the following. If at the ULT it was determined the unfired round was NOT struck by the FP (but the rest were, no broke gun here), and the gun went "click" on shot number 1, after being observed to have been normally cocked (no slipped hammer), the only reasonable conclusion is he went to the line with a live round under the hammer (and the first click was on the empty chamber, followed by four shots). Now ya got a SDQ.

while youre making a reasonable assumption the rest of us will give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and not penalize him or her for something we cannot confirm.

CC

[Guncrazy Matt, SWS #364]

Spotters

- Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were

engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

...

- Remember' date=' the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses. His

main function is to assist the competitor through the course of fire, and his memory

can easily be altered if something out of the ordinary happens or if he becomes

occupied coaching a newer shooter through a stage.

[/quote']

A miss as already said...

And as long as the bullet still is seated in the cartridge it's a live round no matter how many times you try to shoot it.

But over to the quote, I do not agree that the spotters should count shots, and misses, and verify procedure. They should actually pay attention to misses and procedure. While observing the procedure there will be clean, a missed shot or a shot one to many. Counting as the rules say would be to difficult, 1-0, 2-0, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 6-2..., and so on. Following procedure means no need to count the shots.

And actually as a TO counting the shots is a must to be ahead of the shooter. Hits and/or misses is not interested for the TO during the shoot, but procedure is. So my conclusion would be:

Spotter counts the misses and follows the procedure.

TO follows the procedure while counting the shots.

 

I always count in strings of five together with the sweep, i.e split in two halfs. A Nevada on three targets with pistol is 1-2-3-2-1, and rifle 1-2-3-2-1-1-2-3-2-1, and a double-tap nevada is 1-1-2-2-3-3-2-2-1-1, and an Arizona on four targets(progressive) 1-1-2-1-2-1-1-2-3-4 Targets(1-2-2-3-3-3-4-4-4-4). An eight shot double sweep on four targets 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4. As a TO I do this to be ahead of the shooter so I can be prepared for his or hers next move, guide the unexperienced shooter and stay away of the extremely fast shooter and still be in control. The counting is not meant to count the amount of shots, it's a way of following the procedure.

 

Sorry for slight OT...

[Dubious Don #56333]

A revolver that doesn't have the empty hole properly positioned under the hammer at the loading table either goes click-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang OR, bang-click-bang-bang-bang-bang and unless you SEE how the gun is set up when the shooter comes to the line it is impossible to tell THAT from a malfunctioning hand that causes no or slight cylinder rotation or a slip hammer at fast speed if we're talking about a Colt style half-cock action. Only way I'd call this is if I SAW that there was a live round under the hammer. (If'n your doing yer job as RO, its not all that hard to peek and see this when its in the holster)

 

I would add the following. If at the ULT it was determined the unfired round was NOT struck by the FP (but the rest were, no broke gun here), and the gun went "click" on shot number 1, after being observed to have been normally cocked (no slipped hammer), the only reasonable conclusion is he went to the line with a live round under the hammer (and the first click was on the empty chamber, followed by four shots). Now ya got a SDQ.

[Mack Hacker, #60477]

I guess I could open this up to a free-for-all by asking the question:

 

What is more dangerous, a revolver in a holster with a live round at an unknown index position or a 73 laying on a table with a spent case on the lifter?

 

 

I'm probably going to regret that one.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Based upon the OP it is possible that another situation happened.

The revolver left the loading table with the hammer down on a LIVE ROUND.

Cycling 5 times with 4 rounds going downrange would still happen.

And the hammer would be down on a spent round.

without knowing exactly which chamber of the cylinder the live round is in it is hard to tell.

Unless the live round has a firing pin dimple.

That scenario would be a "Not adhering to loading procedures" for a SDQ.

 

Or did I miss something.

[Holden A. Grudge]

Hacker,

 

I was thinking along the same lines. If the shooter left the loading table with the hammer down on the first live round, he would then attempt to fire the next five cylinders with the last attempt being on the empty cylinder and a live round still remaining. If I had to bet on it, this is what I would have guessed happened.

[Anvil Al #59168]

this is what I would have guessed happened.

 

 

We don't give SDQ's on what you GUESSED.

If you don't KNOW FOR SURE. You should not even think about calling it.

 

See Buck D Law's post #21

[Holden A. Grudge]

Didn't say to call it. Didn't use the DQ anywhere in what I said. What I did was make an assumption. Alight....your right...I didn't say that I agreed with PWB's call well above. For the record, I do. It was a miss. Too much thinkin out loud.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

AA, The OP did not indicate whether the primer on the live round was dimpled or not.

NOR did indicate if the revolver in question was a Ruger Vaquero or a Colt or clone.

That obviously affects the half cock notch theory or not.

 

But if the ULT team would evaluate which chamber the live round was in more seriously we would know

whether these cases are that of 5 cyclings of the action over 5 live rounds or 5 cyclings of action over 4 live rounds and an empty chamber.

 

If we knew the above was 5 live rounds then it would be a miss.

But if it was 4 live rounds and an empty chamber then it would be the SDQ.

 

But without this critical info the BOD says we can only give the miss, because we cannot prove that it

was hammer down on a live round.

[Anvil Al #59168]

That is a very bad assumption. Many rounds that do not fire(for various reasons) successfully the first time may fire if given another opportunity. This one did, in fact.

 

 

From reading this it sounds as if it was hit.

 

 

 

 

Some sure seem to want to hand out SDQ's without knowing for sure.

 

And YES. I am assuming it was down on an emtpy chamber.

Because that is how we are to start. And I see not one thing that

tell me he did not.

[Dubious Don #56333]

If its a Ruger with the transfer bar intact, there is no safety issue! Of course, there is no safety issue with a 73 OPEN, even if there's an empty hull in the action but BOTH are against SASS rules.

 

I guess I could open this up to a free-for-all by asking the question:

 

What is more dangerous, a revolver in a holster with a live round at an unknown index position or a 73 laying on a table with a spent case on the lifter?

 

 

I'm probably going to regret that one.