Posse Spotter Responsibilities/Class

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Cpt Dan, huh? Say what? What are you talking about? You are not going to "lose" ANY brass. It is just going to lay on the ground a little longer before you get to embrace it to your bosom again. Trust me, it'll still be laying there waiting. It ain't gonna crawl off and get away. No one is going to steal it.

 

I am poorer than most so of course I will be right there with everybody else snaggin' up my brass. After all, each one of those 38 cases represents a nickel. But, if a pard is in a hurry to leave from the match then he would have that option sooner. Or if a pard can afford it and could care less about a few pieces of base metal he could then defer from participating in the after match easterbrassegg hunt.

 

I know it will never happen as cowboys are just SO emotionally attached to their brass that they coould never stand to go on to another stage without retrieving the dang brass first, but it should. There really is no downside. No one loses any brass. Everyone gets a clean set of targets to shoot at and no subjective calls have to be made.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

In an example much like PWB illustrated, ...

...

When spotters don't move to a position where they can make a fair and propper call they do a disservice to the game the shooter and themselves. YES! there at least should be some instruction given on how to spot besides the usual "If you think it's a hit.......". This should either be done as an introduction to the game or when movement like that described is involved in a stage.

 

This situation has been repeated many times and at some big matches. It is something that can and should be corrected.

That was pretty much the exact type of scenario to which I was referring.

Some stages WILL necessitate some movement by the spotters.

 

I've seen another technique. The counter holds several fingers out. After the shooting's over they look at the other spotters and adjust the number of fingers accordingly. This technique tends to really piss me off and I do ask for a new spotter.

LL'

The "spotter" I "fired" at the State Match wasn't even doing that...he was completely oblivious to what was going on downrange during the shooting, only looking at the other spotters when the T/O called for the count.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Why not? Because in my case it wouldn't change the reason that I am involved with CAS.

 

So then don't question anything if you don't give a damn...so what?

 

Again, someone pushing their beliefs on others...

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

OK Coop you seem to have stirred it up a bit! Now in relation to the OP I will concede that doing something of an organized nature to help teach people to spot would be good but I don't think a certification program is the answer.

 

Now in relation to a couple of the side bars:

 

Lone Dog: When I retrieve brass I want mine not someone else's problem brass. It seems a real coincidence when you see the same people having problems cycling ammo and if you happen to pick up their brass you end up with a glitch when you use it.

 

Now in general I think when most here talk about a problem spotter they are talking the extreme lower level of ability or commitment to the job. This doesn't mean if you and I call out a different number that one of us is a "bad" spotter. Most try to do their best and that's all you can ask for but in some cases it's obvious the person is doing something other than focusing on the job of spotting.

 

My 2 cents worth!

[Blastmaster]

I've seen another technique. The counter holds several fingers out. After the shooting's over they look at the other spotters and adjust the number of fingers accordingly. This technique tends to really piss me off and I do ask for a new spotter.

 

 

LL'

 

To the fire,

 

Just for a minute, let us say that person is in the Senior catagory or older, stone deaf w/o their hearing aides and they are spotting someone who shoots light loads real fast on heavy steel (think no movement) AND there is some amount of target vision obstruction cause of props and bodies,,, and they can not incroach upon the firing line for a better look see. Or some combination of the above. Let us say they are trying to do their best, but,,they have their senior moments too,,,,and on top of that, someone else handed them the stick so they could get ready to shoot. Still kick them in the knee and ask for new spotters? I guess some would because there are others that could do better. Also, as someone has pointed out, if you hear nothing, see no dust, grass or dirt flying, no concrete evidence of a clean miss, then it must be a hit and benifit of doubt goes to the shooter. As someone mentioned, shooting blanks would fulfill that.

 

When I got hung in a post above, I was thinking of just one couple that rather fit my above discription that wouldn't give up the stick when politely asked if they needed relief from spotting. Come to find out, one of them needed a joint replacement and stooping over to shag brass was painful, pulling up SG target with rope was cutting their hands, and,,,,, well you get the idea, spotting was something they could do. The posse tried to make sure both were not counting at the same time. I personally mind, but don't mind them spotting when I am shooting. I take it as part of the game and take my chances. That is why we have three spotters.

 

Ya can hang me again,

 

Blastmaster

[Snakebite]

While I agree that benefit of doubt should go to the shooter, and just not hearing a hit isn't enough to call a miss, I don't think the ONLY way to call a miss is to see where it impacts the ground. That's why spotting is difficult, it's a judgment call. You should be looking for a hit on the target, looking for any target movement, and listening for the impact on the target. If I don't see any of those, I'm likely to call a miss unless there is something else there to make me doubt that it was a miss. And I have been told by several ROs that I'm a good spotter. In any sport that relies on humans to make judgment calls, there will inevitably be errors, sometimes in your favor sometimes not. Unless you want to use cardboard targets, paint the targets for each shooter, or institute video replay, that's the way it's going to be.

 

 

I agree with you Dirty Chris, and you can spot for me anytime.... However.... I do believe that seeing the MISS is the most positive way of knowing for certain that the target was not hit. Shooting on a dirt or similar platform is best for this method of spotting. Of course the spotter should use all methods of feedback available, but nothing is more positive than seeing the MISS. When shooting in such an area, I ask the spotters to use that method. We all know that there are some targets that seem to be "dead", and just don't give any feedback... especially if the shooter is using a light bullet and load. Painting after every shooter is rarely an option.

 

When shooting in grass or other areas that do not provide this type of feedback, the spotter has no choice other than to use what is available to him/her in order to make the call. In this case... as with the other, the spotter MUST remember that if he/she is NOT absolutely certain that there was a MISS, that the shooter will be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

Snakebite

[Deadlee Headlee SASS 54317 L]

I don't think that spotter training is required. I do agree that it should be covered throughly as part of the ROI class and I do this when I teach the classes.

 

The most difficult thing, and the most important , that we do at a match is spot for his and misses. As Colt said it can be VERY difficult for a slow or even average shooter to spot for a fast one, add to that a wide stage design and a few props to obstruct a perfect viewing angle and we have a perfect opportunity for mistakes to be made. As an shooter and instructor I believe, and teach that the spotter's should be encouraged to discuss the edge hit issue among themselves. I mean if you are spotting and the shooter has a potential edge hit that is on the other spotters side of the berm and they clearly see it and you don't why would you not take their word as they were in a better position than you to make that call CORRECTLY. lets remember that correct calls are what we all are trying to achieve here. We don't paint the targets between shooters so we have to have spotters. this system by it's nature has flaws and they are best mitigated by the spotters trusting each other if there is a clear discrepancy at hand. Now if the timer is the only one who saw it then the shooter will probably get the miss as the timer can NEVER overrule the spotters on hits and misses.

 

Remember many in this game are not hearing or seeing as well as they did just a few years ago much less than as young people. Lets try to give the shooters as fair a shake as possible please. This does not include letting the shooters buddies shill for them at a match. If that happens then the spotters must be replaced by the timer operator immediately.

 

As Creeker said it is important that every shooter is given the opportunity to be scored fairly based on their shooting and not be penalized by inaccurate spotting. Having spotters that are willing to discuss an edge hit and give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter is not only acceptable but is now recommended and what is currently taught.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Creeker, of course you want your very own pristine brass back. So do I and so does everyone else. No problemo. Mark your brass so it is instantly recognizable. Sharpies come in lots of colors. The club has a coffee tin of colored Sharpies. Everyone pick a color and mark the rifle brass. T-Bone of course gets dibs on purple. I don't have to worry about marking mine as it will be the only super shiny 357 in amongst the less shiny 38s.

 

Think about it folks. Painting the targets after each shooter only takes a few seconds, most targets will only have a coupla impacts on them. Everyone gets a fair accurate miss count. And you no longer have to fret the inadequacies of decrepit spotters.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

Really...why not?

 

For instance, say yer the first shooter and the targets are newly painted. You see your edger...one other guy sees yer edger...shouldn't you make a simple request that the RO notice the little mark on the edge? Ask the spotter that saw the edger?

 

There is no reason why one can't or why someone shouldn't question a call if they feel that the spotters are wrong...so long as one does so in a respectful manner.

 

Or is this a "I'm above it all" kinda attitude?

 

Phantom

 

 

No it's not "I'm above it all".

 

Hits and misses are called by the spotters. That's their job.

 

I find whether it's me shooting or someone else that when there is an edge hit some spotters will catch it and others won't. They discuss it among themselves and sort it out.

 

SCG

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

No it's not "I'm above it all".

 

Hits and misses are called by the spotters. That's their job.

 

I find whether it's me shooting or someone else that when there is an edge hit some spotters will catch it and others won't. They discuss it among themselves and sort it out.

 

SCG

 

Sage Gus Creek, I'm sure Phantom will let you know what he means but I don't think he's claiming to be above anything. If an edger hits a newly painted target it's there to be seen. If one of the spotters didn't notice it he can be shown the edge hit. The proof is right there to look at!! That seems purdy simple to me!

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

Sage Gus Creek, I'm sure Phantom will let you know what he means but I don't think he's claiming to be above anything. If an edger hits a newly painted target it's there to be seen. If one of the spotters didn't notice it he can be shown the edge hit. The proof is right there to look at!! That seems purdy simple to me!

 

 

I took his comment to mean that I was "above it all".

 

Here's his complete comment that I responded to:

 

*********************

 

Really...why not?

 

For instance, say yer the first shooter and the targets are newly painted. You see your edger...one other guy sees yer edger...shouldn't you make a simple request that the RO notice the little mark on the edge? Ask the spotter that saw the edger?

 

There is no reason why one can't or why someone shouldn't question a call if they feel that the spotters are wrong...so long as one does so in a respectful manner.

 

Or is this a "I'm above it all" kinda attitude?

 

Phantom

 

******************************************************

 

I have no problem with a shooter questioning a call of hit or miss if they wish as long as they accept the three spotters decision in the end. I just don't do it myself.

 

SCG

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

I took his comment to mean that I was "above it all".

 

Here's his complete comment that I responded to:

 

*********************

 

Really...why not?

 

For instance, say yer the first shooter and the targets are newly painted. You see your edger...one other guy sees yer edger...shouldn't you make a simple request that the RO notice the little mark on the edge? Ask the spotter that saw the edger?

 

There is no reason why one can't or why someone shouldn't question a call if they feel that the spotters are wrong...so long as one does so in a respectful manner.

 

Or is this a "I'm above it all" kinda attitude?

 

Phantom

 

******************************************************

 

I have no problem with a shooter questioning a call of hit or miss if they wish as long as they accept the three spotters decision in the end. I just don't do it myself.

 

SCG

 

Sorry for my confusion SCG! Happy Trails!