Posse Spotter Responsibilities/Class

[Chicken Coop SASS 5791 L]

Howdy pards,

 

BTW - Happy New Year to all our pards on the wire - And congratulations to 2011 Winter Range. I understand they just "sold out" the SASS National Championship match this year. Appalachia Annie and I will be there again this year from Pittsburgh, PA (Go Steelers). This is year Number 13 for us. YeHawwwee.

 

 

I've always wondered if SASS has ever considered a "spotters" class/certification (i.e. SO1, SO2, yada, yada, etc.) as part of our handbook/instructional material. I think well trained Spotters are crucial to our sport, and may be maybe even more so than our Timer Operators. Whenever I RO/TO a posse and there is a miss/hit discrepancy, I always take the time to poll the spotters. My first question to all of them is, "how many dirt/dust clouds did you see behind the target plate that was missed?" If he/she/they answer, "none", my next question is, "Well, how can you say it was a miss?"

 

I would like to see the following "Spotter Responsibilities" as part of the SASS/CAS shooter's handbook:

 

If you see a hit, it is a HIT.

If you think it is a hit, it is a HIT.

If you think it is a miss, it is a HIT.

If the target does not clang, ring, whatever, but you do not see a miss, it is a HIT.

If you see a miss in the dirt angled away from the intended target plate, it is a HIT (as in nicked the plate).

If you SEE a clean miss (i.e. dust cloud behind the target plate), it is a MISS.

 

How does one see a clean miss, you ask? It is when there is an obvious eruption of a dust cloud of dirt/pea gravel/gravel/etc. to the right/left/under/above and behind the intended target plate.

 

A spotter is also required to monitor possible procedure calls, monitor round counts per firearm, and possible AD's. They are also allowed to assit the shooter safely thru the stage by making sure the shooter knows upon what targets to continue their shooting string if there is a shooting glitch.

 

Just as a final reminder, benefit of the doubt must always go to the shooter.

 

What say you all?

 

Chicken Coop

[Dirty Chris]

So at ranges with grass or in the woods everybody shoots clean since you can't actually see where the miss hit the ground?

[Diamond Fred SASS Life 20364]

That is a very good list. That is the way I was taught how to spot. There should be a written "how to" for spotting. It could be made a part of the ROI manual. Far to many people have incorrect ideas on how spotting should be called. "If you do not see the miss then it is a HIT."

[Chicken Coop SASS 5791 L]

So at ranges with grass or in the woods everybody shoots clean since you can't actually see where the miss hit the ground?

 

The primary responsibility of SASS/CAS spotters is to see the "miss". IMO, if you cannot see the miss, it is not a miss. This shooting sport is a visual sport, not a "hearing" sport.

 

Chicken Coop

[Dirty Chris]

The primary responsibility of SASS/CAS spotters is to see the "miss". IMO, if you cannot see the miss, it is not a miss. This shooting sport is a visual sport, not a "hearing" sport.

 

Chicken Coop

 

While I agree that benefit of doubt should go to the shooter, and just not hearing a hit isn't enough to call a miss, I don't think the ONLY way to call a miss is to see where it impacts the ground. That's why spotting is difficult, it's a judgment call. You should be looking for a hit on the target, looking for any target movement, and listening for the impact on the target. If I don't see any of those, I'm likely to call a miss unless there is something else there to make me doubt that it was a miss. And I have been told by several ROs that I'm a good spotter. In any sport that relies on humans to make judgment calls, there will inevitably be errors, sometimes in your favor sometimes not. Unless you want to use cardboard targets, paint the targets for each shooter, or institute video replay, that's the way it's going to be.

[Griff]

Howdy pards,

<snip>

I would like to see the following "Spotter Responsibilities" as part of the SASS/CAS shooter's handbook:

If you see a hit, it is a HIT.

If you think it is a hit, it is a HIT.

If you think it is a miss, it is a HIT.

What say you all?

Chicken Coop

On that we agree. (There's other portions in your post we agree on also, but those are the high spots, along with the bit about benefit of doubt, etc.). I'm oft reminded of the adage, too many cooks spoil the broth. As a shooter, hearin' a multiude of voices callin' out, sometimes with conflicting information, seems too much like the voices in my head, which I used to have a hard time ignoring. But, as I've gotten older, have tinnitus in one ear, (luckily it's louder than the voices), found better fitting earplugs, I've found it's easier if I just ignore ALL ya'll. If my stage is going to go down in flames... but I'm not unsafe, leave me ALONE to enjoy the "P" as I'm all about gettin' it the old fashion way... EARNIN' it!

Same as when I've RO'd... Spotters, concentrate on the targets... let me concentrate on the shooter/gun... callin' out stuff in the midst of battle can get downright confusing. I remember that one time... 6 of us runnin' hell-bent-for-water, (we were Navy after-all), rounds zingin' all around and some fool yellin' RETREAT!! RETREAT!!!, I wanted to shoot the SOB right there. Heck, I was rear guard, while we were advancing... and suddenly found myself point, good Gawd, man, I can see we're havin' our asses handed to us one 7.62x39 round at a time... (time bein' a relative thing... it was more like several hundred), but I clearly remember every single zing, thunk and zip as bullets whipped thru the air, foilage and trees). That was plain silly, we were trying to run south, fire on the bastards to the north. And, in actuality, we were supposed to be 'neakin' in 'n out... screamin' "RETREAT" at the top of your lungs was counter-productive... it was dark, they couldn't see us any better than we could before the fight started!

Have I experienced bad calls? Have I made some? Yes, anyone that's shot this game for any length of time has. But, the sky is still above us, and we're (mostly), still on top of the earth, even those guys downunder! If nothing unsafe is happening, let the shooter end the debacle and THEN sort it out. That's not to say that I haven't stopped a shooter in mid-stream just to allow him a re-shoot after he gets his head screwed on frontways again.

I have yet to meet a spotter that purposely sets out the screw up a guys miss/hit count. Just like those folks on the other side of the political fence from me... I believe they have the best interests of our fine nation at heart (mostly), but are just screwed up in how to go about it. I don't even feel that way about our spotters! I truly believe them when they say 1, 2 & 4 for the miss count. The majority agreed that there were at least TWO misses. Next shooter!

Trying to get more folks to attend a class for an unpaid, under-appreciated, much maligned and potentially injurious occupation would probably be like getting them to take English grammar all over again! And lord knows this forum could use some more of THAT!

Any LEO on this or any forum, if they feel like dabbling in the truth, will tell you that eye-witness testimony to ANYTHING is the most unreliable testimony you'll ever get! Getting three witnesses to a bank-robber exiting the bank with a bag of money and a gun, you'll be lucky, very lucky if you get two to agree he was wearing a green jacket. Let me put this another way... even cops are notoriously bad witnesses..., AND they're trained! Trainin' folks to look & listen, and be fully engaged in those two activities for even as long as it takes Badlands Bud to complete a stage is nearly impossible... a SASS class or two ain't gonna do it.

Personally, I think most folks don't like to spot. But do so out a sense of duty and knowledge that someone has to! Not conducive to excellent performances.

I'm sure there are differing opinions out there... and will gladly entertain them... or not!

 

P.S. Some of the above is in jest, just not all of it!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

The primary responsibility of SASS/CAS spotters is to see the "miss". IMO, if you cannot see the miss, it is not a miss. This shooting sport is a visual sport, not a "hearing" sport.

 

Chicken Coop

All good points Chicken Coop, being and teaching good spotting is one of my pet peeves. A good spotter will put themselves in a positon to see a miss, being a BP shooter we are often called for misses because of dead steel. We have one cowboy target that has been wielded one to many times, I can hit it dead center on fresh paint and still get called for a miss. I always like to ask where did I miss?? was it high, low, left, right?? Another thing spotters need to keep up with is the round count. If a shooter shots four from the revolver then starts to holster and the RO misses it, the spotters should holler "one more". I agree the RO manual should have a little more guideance on teaching spotting, however if they would follow what's already written in the RO manual it shouldn't be that difficult. But first you have to read RO I , another good reason why everyone should take the RO I class, to at least get an understanding of the rules.

 

 

 

8. Spotters

Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were

engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

C) Should always be in position to see all the targets in the course of fire. At least one spotter should be positioned on either side of the competitor.

D) Determine misses by both visual and audible means, if possible.

E) Always give the shooter the benefit of any doubt.

G) Remember, the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Blastmaster]

Nope!! We do not need classes or certifications for spotting. If you do, I will not go and tnen you will have a devil of a time getting certified spotters while you RO.

 

 

 

DC in post #5 says it pretty well. Spotting and calling hits/misses is a judgement call. Part of the game.

 

Yes, I've seen a few spotters make poor calls, but they are trying to do their very best and part of the posse work load. Better than an able bodied individual sitting back and the rest of the posse carries them.

 

Your list of " a hit is a hit, etc" is good, has been around, read often at nearly every match I've attended and doesn't need to be put into the ROI/ROII books that most people do not read anyway.

 

Finally, I dislike, but don't say anything when the Shooter or RO ask exactly which gun, which round, misssed which target and so on. Depending on their tone of voice, they are implying that if you can not give full disclosure to all the details, then you must be wrong. I do not attempt to remember the details and rely on how many fingers I have extended outwards.

 

When I RO, I may ask each spotter if there is some concerns, " Are you sure of your call?" If they say "Yes", then their score stands w/o further discussion.

 

I am content with the method of spotting as it currently exist.

 

 

Blastmaster

 

Edit: From my experience, the poor spotters that come to my mind are the ones that give the shooters a clean stage while there were obvious misses/procedurals. Most of the time, the other two spotters are on the ball and make the correct call and majority rules. And no, those poor spotters will not be deligated to 'only' manning the UT/LT or shagging brass.

[Smithy]

I am a very, I say very new shooter and from the very start of things I have been spotting not necessarily by choice either. At my first shoot (an annual) I held back and was very apprehensive about posse duties. Shoot, I had a man assigned to me to make sure I wouldn't shoot my foot off (they all knew it was my first shoot). About stage two the owner of the range and operator of the shoot approached me and told me to get busy scoring, running the loading table, spotting, or something. I was scared as anything. Out of all the posse duty choices, spotting seemed to me like the one I would be least likely to screw up another shooters score with. After all I would have two others to agree/disagree with my decision before it became final. I was handed a stick and that was it! A couple things that I noticed was that I would always get into a position where I could see the targets and the shooter for hits and misses (the folks that had done it awhile did not). I (being a black powder shooter) did save some black powder shooters a few misses that were actually hits, although I had to do some specific explaining on what target and where the round hit (after all, I was the new guy). I called some errant "P's" that were not due to orders of runs/sweeps and their definitions. All and all I have become pretty well self taught due to my philosophy of calling my fellow shooter just as I would want to be called. That plan has worked out pretty well for me. Smithy.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

Good post Coop and interesting proposal but IMHO I don't think we need it.

 

The only item not covered in your descriptions is the edger that often shows up somewhere back of the target and causes some to call a miss. clarity that one and you got a real good list!

[BJT]

What does "see a miss" mean?

 

If I am looking at the target being shot at and at the sound of the shot, I fail to see any evidence that the shot hit the target and I also do not see where the bullet struck, I should assume a hit? That does not make sense since in many cases, the evidence of a bullet strike may not be available to the spotter (grass, snow, etc.)

 

Regards,

Rod

[Shooting Bull]

They are also allowed to assit the shooter safely thru the stage by making sure the shooter knows upon what targets to continue their shooting string if there is a shooting glitch.

 

 

 

Spotters do that???

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Spotters do that???

Nope, the spotters are to count shots and misses, and verify correct target engagement, not to assist, that's the ROs job. I have on ocassion seen the RO get distracted on the shooing order and have a spotter chime in on which target to hit next, but that is very rare and not the spotters responsibility. Of course if there is something unsafe we are all safety officers.

Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

Jefro

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

And no, those poor spotters will not be deligated to 'only' manning the UT/LT or shagging brass.

 

So even when you know you have "Poor" spotters - You will leave them in place?

I hope I am misunderstanding your post.

Because, while everyone does not have the same ability - EVERYONE should be afforded the opportunity to have their personal best shoot at every match they attend.

This means providing them the best chance to do well - with a quality TO, good spotters and the same circumstances as any other.

 

When a TO KNOWINGLY has poor spotters in place and does nothing about it, that is unacceptable.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Nope, the spotters are to count shots and misses, and verify correct target engagement, not to assist, that's the ROs job. I have on ocassion seen the RO get distracted on the shooing order and have a spotter chime in on which target to hit next, but that is very rare and not the spotters responsibility. Of course if there is something unsafe we are all safety officers.

Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

...

Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body. Spotters are obligated to stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in position to see it or react quickly enough.

...

G) Remember, the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses. His main function is to assist the competitor through the course of fire, and his memory can easily be altered if something out of the ordinary happens or if he becomes occupied coaching a newer shooter through a stage.

ROI pp.9-10

[Bad Brass]

Great list! I've thought that a spotters course was a good ideal but never could figure out how you would present it. Perhaps a post on the SASS home page with some illustrations and the typical verbal instructions could be done. The first time I spotted, the "if you think it's a" song was given out as my instructions, nothing else......

 

If you think beyond that basic concept I don't recall ever getting much physical training on the subject.

 

Position yourself with a clear field of vision to all targets if possible, if movement is required plan it out prior to the shooter beginning his string of fire. Tell the other spotters what you are planning to do. Don't step in front of a spotter to adjust your position. If you are taller move behind other spotters. If windows are in the field of vision let fellow spotters know you are going to look through upper corner while they take the lower right...etc. The best place to spot is behind the shooter, don't go excessively off to the side, (you can't see what's happening behind the targets.

 

Tunnel vision and head on a swivel:

Narrow your focus to an area just larger than the target to see a miss, imagine a 10" target in the middle of a 30" square. Put your head on a swivel and move to each target. You should be able to see lead splash on dead targets or slight movement, if you are really on point, edgers are easier to spot. Everything else that happens in the background verifies what you are focused on.

 

Priority of input:

1st. I try to judge calls by what my eyes tell me in the area of focus.

2nd. Add to that what my eyes pick up surrounding the focus area.

3rd. What I hear, big old clang is great, nothing could be dead steel or light loads.

 

And after all of that........benefit goes to the shooter!

[Sheriff Oso, SASS #57788L]

Blastmaster says, "Finally, I dislike, but don't say anything when the Shooter or RO ask exactly which gun, which round, misssed which target and so on. Depending on their tone of voice, they are implying that if you can not give full disclosure to all the details, then you must be wrong. I do not attempt to remember the details and rely on how many fingers I have extended outwards."

 

 

If spotters call misses on me, I often (almost ALWAYS) ask, "What did I miss"? The reason is simple. I no longer waste my time "waiting" to hear the ding or see the hit. Once the trigger is pulled, nothing will change, so I move on and keep shooting. At the end of the string, if I see spotters showing I missed targets, I ask what I missed because I need to know what I missed!

 

I am NOT arguing with anyone. I am asking for information that will help me be more accurate. Some Spotters remember exactly what i missed, some remember generally and others don't have any idea except how many fingers they are holding (Not that there's anything wrong with that!).

Some say, "2 pistols and a rifle", others say, "you shot over the top of p2 both times and under r1 the first time around."

 

I appreciate all the info I can get, as I REALLY HATE MISSES, and am always glad to hear where and how I went wrong.

 

FWIW...YMMV...SOso

[Blastmaster]

So even when you know you have "Poor" spotters - You will leave them in place?

I hope I am misunderstanding your post.

Because, while everyone does not have the same ability - EVERYONE should be afforded the opportunity to have their personal best shoot at every match they attend.

This means providing them the best chance to do well - with a quality TO, good spotters and the same circumstances as any other.

 

When a TO KNOWINGLY has poor spotters in place and does nothing about it, that is unacceptable.

 

 

Creeker,

 

You hear correctly. I have allowed poor spotters to continue. They may be adequate for some shooters but questionable to not at all for others.

 

Your idea is in theory very good but in practicality it can not work and keep harmony, fun and good will on the posse.

 

In nine years of shooting, I have not nor have I 'ever' seen a RO/TO force or not allow anyone the opportunity to spot if the spotter so wished, no matter how bad they were or what call they may have made. I guess you have?

 

As the speed/skill of the shooter on the line increases, I believe, that there will be fewer spotters that can keep up and make adequate good calls,,,, meaning the spotter may go from a good spotter to a poor spotter because of the quickness/slowness of the shooter they are trying to spot for.

 

Interesting. So is it common at other places for willing spotters to be routinely booted off the spotter duty list because they do a poor job by someones opinion? I am sure there may be cases, but how often?

 

As I mentioned earlier, my observation has been that the shooter generally gets away with more from a poor spotter than gets penalized.

 

Blastmaster

[Sweet Beulah Land, SASS #55216]

I have always believed that a shooter could request new spotters if they observe them doing a "poor" job? I have seen this done, and I totally agree with the concept. I also have seen terrible spotters, no matter how "good hearted and willing" if a spotter is talking to others instead of watching targets, looking to the other spotters before holding up the count, walking to their cart for something I LOVE it when the TO asks for replacements and dismisses that spotter (I have also seen this done quite often). Of course the old standby method of simply waiting until these "spotters" get in line to shoot before I shoot also works but, it sucks!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Working as Posse Marshal at a State Championship match, I HAVE replaced spotters who were VERY OBVIOUSLY not paying attention to what they were assigned (or volunteered) to do.

At a Regional match I approached a shooter who was "spotting" from a stool situated in a position where it was impossible to see half of the targets. He was relying totally on hearing "hits". He was requested to hand off the spotter stick to someone willing to do the job.

 

IMO, it is a disservice to the SHOOTERS when inattentive spotters are allowed to continue working a stage.

The "speed/skill" level of the competitor on the line is irrelevant.

 

3. Posse Marshal

...

A) Is in charge of a posse and is required to ensure all positions are manned to safely and efficiently run the posse through each course of fire.

...

...

5. Timer Operator

A) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer.

Is responsible for assigning and identifying three Spotters.

ROI p.7

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Creeker,

Your idea is in theory very good but in practicality it can not work and keep harmony, fun and good will on the posse.

In nine years of shooting, I have not nor have I 'ever' seen a RO/TO force or not allow anyone the opportunity to spot if the spotter so wished, no matter how bad they were or what call they may have made. I guess you have?

As the speed/skill of the shooter on the line increases, I believe, that there will be fewer spotters that can keep up and make adequate good calls,,,, meaning the spotter may go from a good spotter to a poor spotter because of the quickness/slowness of the shooter they are trying to spot for.

Interesting. So is it common at other places for willing spotters to be routinely booted off the spotter duty list because they do a poor job by someones opinion? I am sure there may be cases, but how often?

Blastmaster

 

I have been a Posse Marshal at monthlies, Annuals, State Championships and the National Championships.

The FASTEST way to destroy harmony, fun and good will is to let shooters feel like they are getting screwed by their spotters.

I have dismissed spotters at every level of shoot - I firmly believe every shooter deserves the best we can give them at each position.

There are PLENTY of jobs on a working posse - LT and ULT officers, expeditor, target resetter, brass shaggers or rakers, in addition to the spotters and TO.

I will always accept assistance, but if you are not able to do the job at a certain position. I will find you a different assignment.

I have also found time to guide spotters by encouraging them to watch how GOOD spotters do their job, by being in proper position, by determining where the bullet went (if it was a silent edger) and developing their skills.

 

You can move someone to another job without saying "You stink", and usually poor spotters KNOW they are weak and are more than willing to do something else.

At the end of the day, there is no Cadillac for anyone, but EVERYONE there paid their entry fee, loaded their ammo and made their way to the range - they should have their score (good or bad) determined by their actions, not the inattention or poor abilities of others.

While it is unavoidable is some instances (big match posse with lots of shooters and skill levels unknown to each other), but once you have knowledge of their skillset (or lack thereof) - the TO has an obligation to provide the best for each shooter.

[Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L]

I have been a Posse Marshal at monthlies, Annuals, State Championships and the National Championships.

The FASTEST way to destroy harmony, fun and good will is to let shooters feel like they are getting screwed by their spotters.

I have dismissed spotters at every level of shoot - I firmly believe every shooter deserves the best we can give them at each position.

There are PLENTY of jobs on a working posse - LT and ULT officers, expeditor, target resetter, brass shaggers or rakers, in addition to the spotters and TO.

I will always accept assistance, but if you are not able to do the job at a certain position. I will find you a different assignment.

I have also found time to guide spotters by encouraging them to watch how GOOD spotters do their job, by being in proper position, by determining where the bullet went (if it was a silent edger) and developing their skills.

 

You can move someone to another job without saying "You stink", and usually poor spotters KNOW they are weak and are more than willing to do something else.

At the end of the day, there is no Cadillac for anyone, but EVERYONE there paid their entry fee, loaded their ammo and made their way to the range - they should have their score (good or bad) determined by their actions, not the inattention or poor abilities of others.

While it is unavoidable is some instances (big match posse with lots of shooters and skill levels unknown to each other), but once you have knowledge of their skillset (or lack thereof) - the TO has an obligation to provide the best for each shooter.

 

 

I have to chime in here and totally agree with Creeker on this one. I have recently started advising my posse members (when I do my intro speech for rules, expectations, helping where you can) that if you aren't comfortable spotting or/and aren't good at it, please don't. There are lots of jobs available! Bad spotting adversely effects everyone. You can always be diplomatic and steer things the way you need without hurting feelings.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

Playing devil's advocate.

 

Consider this.

 

Your shooting blanks so with each shot:

 

There's no clang.

 

There's no target movement.

 

There's no bullet impact observed in the dirt behind the target.

 

Therefore - it's a hit.

 

SCG

[Curly Red Ryder]

Nope, the spotters are to count shots and misses, and verify correct target engagement, not to assist, that's the ROs job. I have on ocassion seen the RO get distracted on the shooing order and have a spotter chime in on which target to hit next, but that is very rare and not the spotters responsibility. Of course if there is something unsafe we are all safety officers.

Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

Jefro

Not exactly, since the last TG summit, the RO Comitee has clarified the duties of the spotters:

The spotters are too Match Officials and they are expected to coach the shooter on safety issues, count of the fired shots (one more), falling targets (down, up).

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

You folks with the luxury of large posses should count your blessings. Yes, it sure must be nice to have semi-pro spotters on relays waiting in the wings if heaven forbid some poor spotter fails to live up to expectations.

 

We had 7 shooters total today. No LTO, no ULTO. The TO was also the scorekeeper and at all times the #1 if not the ONLY spotter.

 

I only spot because I have to. I'm a semi-pro brass shagger even tho I despise brass shagging. Just like spotting, somebody has to and in these parts the brass rat is automatically of necessity also a spotter.

 

After 15 years I like to think I can spot decently for anyone. Now I may remember just which shot from which gun you missed. And I may not. But I'll probly have the right number of fingers held out.

 

PWB, a good spotter can spot just fine seated on a stool. Standing is not a requirement. The agonizing constant pain in my leg requires that as soon as the easterbrassegg hunt is over, I sit back down on my stump buddy. From that position I believe I can actually see and hear and spot BETTER than standing as I am on the same plane as the targets with my eyes and ears.

 

If it becomes an expectation that senile old duffers are required to remember not just the location of the miss but where in the round count it came, just count me out.

 

ALL matches should be lost brass matches. We should instead devote the time absolutely TOTALLY wasted shagging brass painting the targets between EVERY shooter. No disputes, no doubt about hits. And you dispense withe the necessity of spotters and brass shaggers. Go back after the match and pick up the brass if it is precious to you or you are emotionally attached to it. It ain't gonna slip off or run away, it'll still be laying there waiting for you to collect it up and embrace it once more.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Not exactly, since the last TG summit, the RO Comitee has clarified the duties of the spotters:

The spotters are too Match Officials and they are expected to coach the shooter on safety issues, count of the fired shots (one more), falling targets (down, up).

I agree 100%, my reply was to a question about assisting the shooter, that's why I didn't quote the entire section where PW did. I agree that spotters are to assist the RO & shooter on safety issues, such as a long gun about to fall where the RO can't see it, but I don't think spotters should be coaching the shooter through the course of fire, that's the ROs job. If spotters and the RO were all coaching at once that could get mighty confusing for the shooter.

 

Jefro

[Filthy Harry, SASS #24924]

If I'm asked to stop spotting and replaced, it's time for me to get on another posse. I've seen a couple shooters who expect clean fast stages. If a miss is called, they immediately try to talk their way out of it. Some shooters when going really fast can "shoot through" a miss. Unless all spotters caught it, there will be a discussion. Some shooters take it personally if a miss is called. Depends on how many friends they have on the posse.

Another point, how many ROs do you know who tell the scorer the miss count before the spotters are polled?

[Bad Hand]

Think about this, this is the only sport where competitors score each other. I usually know exactly how many misses I've had during a stage. Sometimes the spotters see them all, sometimes they don't, evens out in the long run. I've NEVER questioned a spotters call.

[Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320]

Think about this, this is the only sport where competitors score each other. I usually know exactly how many misses I've had during a stage. Sometimes the spotters see them all, sometimes they don't, evens out in the long run. I've NEVER questioned a spotters call.

 

I don't either. When I'm shooting I'm not a spotter.

 

SCG

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

PWB, a good spotter can spot just fine seated on a stool. Standing is not a requirement. The agonizing constant pain in my leg requires that as soon as the easterbrassegg hunt is over, I sit back down on my stump buddy. From that position I believe I can actually see and hear and spot BETTER than standing as I am on the same plane as the targets with my eyes and ears.

 

I didn't say that SITTING was the problem with that individual...

he was "...situated in a position where it was impossible to see half of the targets."

All of the targets weren't visible from any single location behind the firing line.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

You folks with the luxury of large posses should count your blessings. Yes, it sure must be nice to have semi-pro spotters on relays waiting in the wings if heaven forbid some poor spotter fails to live up to expectations.

 

We had 7 shooters total today. No LTO, no ULTO. The TO was also the scorekeeper and at all times the #1 if not the ONLY spotter.

 

I only spot because I have to. I'm a semi-pro brass shagger even tho I despise brass shagging. Just like spotting, somebody has to and in these parts the brass rat is automatically of necessity also a spotter.

 

After 15 years I like to think I can spot decently for anyone. Now I may remember just which shot from which gun you missed. And I may not. But I'll probly have the right number of fingers held out.

 

PWB, a good spotter can spot just fine seated on a stool. Standing is not a requirement. The agonizing constant pain in my leg requires that as soon as the easterbrassegg hunt is over, I sit back down on my stump buddy. From that position I believe I can actually see and hear and spot BETTER than standing as I am on the same plane as the targets with my eyes and ears.

 

If it becomes an expectation that senile old duffers are required to remember not just the location of the miss but where in the round count it came, just count me out.

 

ALL matches should be lost brass matches. We should instead devote the time absolutely TOTALLY wasted shagging brass painting the targets between EVERY shooter. No disputes, no doubt about hits. And you dispense withe the necessity of spotters and brass shaggers. Go back after the match and pick up the brass if it is precious to you or you are emotionally attached to it. It ain't gonna slip off or run away, it'll still be laying there waiting for you to collect it up and embrace it once more.

 

Recon you must be related to the Rockafellers or Kennedys closely enough to inherit. 100 to 120 pistol and an equal number of rifle running about $30 a hundred for brass these days not to mention 8 bucks a box for the shotgun. This sport already damned expensive in terms of hardware, becomes prohibitively expensive. Actually for those who shoot a lot, the ammo is much more expensive than the guns. If you don't reload cheap 45 colt is 35 a box of 50. That is 140 to 175 bucks a match plus the 8 for the shotgun.

 

If we are going to repaint all the targets for every shooter the shooter will have plenty of time to police his own brass. If we have become this wrapped up in the competitive side of the sport it may be time to fold the tent. I suck, I know I suck and show up to have fun. If it is going to cost me $200 for every match (Ammo, Diesel and a Coffee) it will be way to expensive to be fun anymore.

 

I do agree we as spotters need to do our utmost to pay attention and do the best we can.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I don't either. When I'm shooting I'm not a spotter.

 

SCG

 

Really...why not?

 

For instance, say yer the first shooter and the targets are newly painted. You see your edger...one other guy sees yer edger...shouldn't you make a simple request that the RO notice the little mark on the edge? Ask the spotter that saw the edger?

 

There is no reason why one can't or why someone shouldn't question a call if they feel that the spotters are wrong...so long as one does so in a respectful manner.

 

Or is this a "I'm above it all" kinda attitude?

 

Phantom

[Matthew Duncan]

Really...why not?

 

For instance, say yer the first shooter and the targets are newly painted. You see your edger...one other guy sees yer edger...shouldn't you make a simple request that the RO notice the little mark on the edge? Ask the spotter that saw the edger?

 

There is no reason why one can't or why someone shouldn't question a call if they feel that the spotters are wrong...so long as one does so in a respectful manner.

 

Or is this a "I'm above it all" kinda attitude?

 

Phantom

 

Why not? Because in my case it wouldn't change the reason that I am involved with CAS.

[Blackwater 53393]

In an example much like PWB illustrated, the shooter starts with rifle at the ready and at the buzzer fires ten rounds at the rifle targets down range, safely places the rifle as required. Shooter moves down range, retrieves shotgun, shoots two targets to the left, moves farther down range and shoots two targets on right, moves to the last position and shoots two more targets and places shotgun open and empty as directed. Shooter then shoots the same targets he shot with the rifle up close and personal. TO turns to spotters and gets a call of clean from the spotter who has moved down range with the shooter, and the call of one miss from two other spotters who have remained leaning on the fence behind the original starting position. It should be noted here that the shooter was a Frontiersman who shoots heavy black powder loads. The TO and the spotter who had moved down range asked in unison, "What did he miss?". Neither spotter could say but refused to explain or to change their calls. The down range movement amounted to roughly forty feet. Nearly every other participant who was watching agreed that there were no misses, but the shooter was assesed a miss.

 

When spotters don't move to a position where they can make a fair and propper call they do a disservice to the game the shooter and themselves. YES! there at least should be some instruction given on how to spot besides the usual "If you think it's a hit.......". This should either be done as an introduction to the game or when movement like that described is involved in a stage.

 

This situation has been repeated many times and at some big matches. It is something that can and should be corrected.

[Assassin]

I've seen another technique. The counter holds several fingers out. After the shooting's over they look at the other spotters and adjust the number of fingers accordingly. This technique tends to really piss me off and I do ask for a new spotter.

 

 

LL'