The Original Bad Bob Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Any advice on how to shoot well with these old fixed sight pistols? I have heard of guys having trouble with shooting too low filing down the front blade. Do any of you recommend that? I have no problems with windage, it's elevation that conflusterates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Howdy, Before you do any filing, take your pistols and a couple boxes of ammo you would use at a match go to the range and set up paper targets at 10 yards and take your time and shoot paper and take your time, it will do two things you will get use to the pistols and second it will help you find your point of aim. KK Any advice on how to shoot well with these old fixed sight pistols? I have heard of guys having trouble with shooting too low filing down the front blade. Do any of you recommend that? I have no problems with windage, it's elevation that conflusterates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Most pistol misses are a result of shooting over the target, not below it. Filing the front sight down will only make the problem worse. If anything you either want a taller sight, or you just need to aim lower with the sight as is. At the distances we shoot at Bob, I've found that putting the top of the sight about center or a little below center works fine. Unless you're shooting an 1860 Army, then you have to aim really low. They were originally sighted in for 50 -75 yards, so unless you compensate for that you'll overshoot every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Most pistol misses are a result of shooting over the target, not below it. Filing the front sight down will only make the problem worse. If anything you either want a taller sight, or you just need to aim lower with the sight as is. At the distances we shoot at Bob, I've found that putting the top of the sight about center or a little below center works fine. Unless you're shooting an 1860 Army, then you have to aim really low. They were originally sighted in for 50 -75 yards, so unless you compensate for that you'll overshoot every time. Just deepen the rear notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Don't file anything until ya shoot a good bit BECAUSE you will most likely change loads, bullet weights, etc a few times until ya decide what ya like. When I started I wanted my pistols to hit dead on where I pointed em but I resisted filing em on the advice of pards here on the wire. That was 7 or8 years ago, and I have changed loads a bunch of times, and still ain't filed the sights. What I would do is see exactly what ya got by shooting a big pizza box or something like it at 7 yards, using a careful aim and holding the top of the front sight right even with the top of the rear sight. Even if (worst case) yer loads shoot 6" high, then ya just compensate by holding on the bottom half of the target. Note: if ya move to lighter bullets, they will hit lower. SLOWER loads will shoot higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Bad Bob Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 I wish I could show you guys a picture of my sight picture. If I hold the front blade even with the tops of the rear sights I end up shooting low, so I have to hold it higher, so that it looks kind of like a man's tiny head on top of his shoulders. My rifle, a Rossi '92 .44 mag, is just the opposite. I have already adjusted the back sight as much as possible; still I have to draw down the front bead almost to the bottom of the valley. I have not shot .44 specials in it yet, so I don't know what they will do, but I think they might hit higher. It would be nice if they had the same sight picture, pistols and rifle. you will most likely change loads, bullet weights, etc a few times until ya decide what ya like if ya move to lighter bullets, they will hit lower. SLOWER loads will shoot higher. So I should wait until I settle on a standard bullet and load before I make an adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Your sight picture is one way of getting on target. It's slower and more prone to error than holding a "good" sight picture, with the top of the front sight and top of the back sight both level and just holding higher up on the target. At our distances on pistol targets, if you just put the standard sight picture at the top of a 16 inch high target, you will probably not miss with your unfiled sights. If you learn how many inches high you need to hold on the target, then you don't have to keep learning a new sight picture. In SASS, you don't have time to look for a fine-tuned sight picture. You need to see the sights, get them on the part of the target you need to aim at, and touch off the shot. And keep on moving. The way the Army wanted the Colt SAA (and most earlier Colt "horse pistols") was to be sighted in with full loads at 75 yards. That is why the front sight blades are tall - full power 250 grain bullet loads at longer ranges than we normally shoot. The physics and geometry of sights, either fixed or adjustable, is all the same. If you need to move the impact of the bullet UP on the target, you can RAISE the back sight, or LOWER (shorten, file some off) the front sight. Like a teeter totter. Front sight moved in one direction, back sight moved in other direction, both do the same adjustment to the point of impact of the bullet on the target. But you are NOT ready to start filing on sights until you've shot a year with them and your loads of choice. Good luck, GJ Your rifle - sounds like it shoots high. And you have run the back sight down as far as it goes. And you are "taking a very fine bead" on the front sight. Two solutions - file some off the rear sight blade and lower the notch down some - kinda tricky for a novice tinkerer to do. Or put on a taller front sight - which is how most folks fix that problem. Good opportunity to get a Grabber front sight, maybe 0.050 to 0.100 taller than the factory sight that is on the rifle now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Howdy I'm gonna assume you are used to shooting with adjustable sights. Guys who come from the world of modern adjustable sights often have trouble shooting fixed sights, because they cannot just adjust the sight to make up for any problems they have with the sights. This picture shows what is known as the Six O'Clock Hold. The top of the front sight blade is even with the top of the rear sight. The front blade is centered in the notch of the rear sight. The entire sight picture has been placed at the Six O'Clock position on the bullseye. Some shooters prefer to place the entire sight picture at the center of the bullseye, but this is the way I learned to shoot. When using a Six O'Clock Hold it is assumed the bullet will impact somewhere higher than the actual position of the top of the front sight blade. That is where a little bit of homework comes in, determining exactly where your point of impact really is relative to the spot you are really holding on. Now granted, most of the time we are not shooting at a nice round bullseye, but the principle is the same. Set up some targets at regular SASS distances and see where Your pistols will hit when you hold this way. Chances are, with big, close CAS targets there will not be much difference between your actual point of aim and your point of impact. Six O'Clock Hold The second picture shows the relative points of impact that will occur with different sighting errors. Sight Pictures Let me make a couple of suggestions about finding out where your pistols actually hit. You will get a lot of advice about sighting them in standing up exactly as you actually shoot them. But that introduces human error into the equation. You are attempting to shoot as accurately as you can with the gun waving around at the end of your arm. If you actually want to fid out where the pistols actually hit with your loads, shoot from a rest. Sit down comfortably at a bench. Build up a rest and top it off with a sandbag. Rest the butt of the pistol on the sandbag. Make sure you are sitting comfortably when you shoot, craning your neck or straining your eyes does not help with accurate shooting. Fire a 5 shot group. MAKE NO ATTEMPT TO CORRECT THE SIGHT PICTURE. Shoot all five shots with exactly the same hold on the same point. Then you can tell where your pistol is actually shooting. Another point that adjustable sight guys are often not aware of is trigger finger position. Most shooters will naturally place the trigger in the crease behind the first knuckle. Don't do that. Place the trigger directly on the pad of the first finger. Pulling the trigger with the crease is almost guaranteed to push the shot to the side. A righty will consistently push the shots to the left with the finger in the crease. This is called too much finger on the trigger. Whether your squeeze the trigger or pull it, the only function your finger is capable of is curling. The further out on the finger you place the trigger, the more the curl translates into a straight back motion. You would be amazed the number of used adjustable sight pistols have the sight cranked over to the right, to compensate for righties shooting to the left. Regarding filing the front sight, I don't bother any more. I filed the front sight on my first cowboy pistol or two, now I don't bother. This ain't bullseye shooting. With good trigger technique, these targets are close enough that filing the front sight usually does not make a whole lot of difference. Plus, as soon as you file down the sight, you will change your load, and where does that leave you? Regarding filing the notch deeper, that really does not help. If you are lining up the top of the front sight with the top of the rear notch, no matter how deep you file the notch, the top of the rear sight is still the same. Well, I see you are talking about a rifle. Absolutely, fire the ammo you expect to be shooting in matches, don't go changing things around until you are shooting the same ammo. Very Generally Speaking, the more a gun recoils the more its muzzle flips up. The gun will begin to move before the bullet leaves the barrel. So the more the barrel flips up, the higher the point of impact will be. This is more pronounced with a pistol because we are holding it well below the axis of the barrel. The natural motion is for the barrel to flip up because we are restraining it below the axis of the barrel. But the effect is the same with a long gun , just less pronounced. Your heavier recoiling ammo will be hitting higher than your lighter recoiling ammo, given the same sight picture. That's why rifle sights are available with different blade heights. If you have reached the limit of vertical adjustment on your rear sights, you may need a different front sight. If you are nesting the front sight way down in the notch to bring the point of aim down where you need it, you may need a taller front sight blade, to lower the muzzle slightly with the top of the blade even with the top of the rear sight. A lot depends on the type of sights you are using too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Bad Bob Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dang you guys are good at this stuff. I recon you've all been at it a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 If there is someone whom you think is a good shooter and whom you would trust with your guns, have him or her shoot 10 rounds from your guns. If he has no problem, it's probably not your sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Norsk Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dang you guys are good at this stuff. I recon you've all been at it a while. You don;t say what load you are using or sport you are doing. You might try shooting a lighter powder charge, this should make the revolver shoot higher because of a longer barrel time and raise the barrel longer before the bullet gets out and or a heavier bullet. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Bad Bob Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Great idea Marshall. I've done the same for other folks myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I didn't wanna go there, but yeah, get another pard to try yer guns and see if it ain't you that's the problem. As far as experience, once ya have enough lead downrange outta yer pistols, ya will probably be able to shoot em in what they call "outlaw" manner, from the hip, no sights at all. Weird as it might sound, after ya shoot em a bunch, yer motor cortex develops what is called muscle memory, and knows where to point em even without sights. Once ya try it once or twice, you'd be surprized how well ya can hit em. So don't fret. You will get this figured out, and once yer comfortable with yer guns, dump a million or so rounds downrange, you might not even notice if the front sight fell off the pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It used to drive my DI's nuts when I was going through basic at Ft Lost in the Woods.But when I started shooting at about 6yrs old,I was taught to put the top of the blade where I wanted the bullet to hit,not under it at the preferred 6 O'clock hold.Still do it that way 58yrs later.Btw...shot expert in basic using the method I was used to.I'm noy saying it's better or worse and those that prefer to use the 6 do well with it because that's what they are used to.And +1 on take the loads you plan on using to see where they hit using whatever sight picture YOU are used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It used to drive my DI's nuts when I was going through basic at Ft Lost in the Woods.But when I started shooting at about 6yrs old,I was taught to put the top of the blade where I wanted the bullet to hit,not under it at the preferred 6 O'clock hold.Still do it that way 58yrs later.Btw...shot expert in basic using the method I was used to.I'm noy saying it's better or worse and those that prefer to use the 6 do well with it because that's what they are used to.And +1 on take the loads you plan on using to see where they hit using whatever sight picture YOU are used to. Think of the bullet as balancing on top of the front sight. When ya can pop a hole in a target, hold so that hole is balanced on the sight, and run another round through it, ya dun good Here's a target I shot two hands, no rest, at about 12 or 13 yards when function checking a gun. The forth of five rounds I pulled low (a "called flier" I knew was bad when I tripped the trigger) target I used exactly that method. Just popped the plate, held so the hole was balanced on top the sight,, and shot some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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