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Sighting the sxs (double barrel) shotgun


Thomas (Tom) Horn

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I suppose this is a dumb question! I have shot shotguns my whole adult life... but the guns were either single barrel or over and under. Very little experience with a double barrel and in my earlier years... I was not shooting under a timer.

My question is where do you sight the bead?

Do you place the BEAD dead center on the target you are shooting at... OR

Do you place the BEAD to the Left edge of the target for the Right barrel and place the BEAD to the Right edge of the target for the Left Barrel?

 

Since I do not know what is the proper sight picture for a double barrel I wag it and sometimes my wags are not getting enough shot on the targets to knock them down.

 

Dumb question for a person my age, but I just do not have the double barrel background. I have no problems with a single barrel (LOL).

 

I thank you in advance.

 

Tom Horn

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You can think of it this way. The barrels are not parallel, they are farther apart at the rear than they are at the front. So, if you put the front sight right on the target, it's basically the same as aiming a single barrel.

 

And practice so you have a better idea where the gun actually shoots.

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At the distances we shoot I point and pull the trigger…never really look at the bead…just make sure the gun is level. The guns I use are all cut short and wide open so the pattern is great for SASS targets...and very forgiving. Don't get me wrong I think it's a GREAT idea to check a new gun because "some" brands the bbls won't have the same point of impact or if they have chokes they can be way too tight for what we do with em'. But if they are set up right you can relax a bit on the point of aim.

 

IMO most of the shotgun issues folks have with the short SXS’s is not holding them level and shooting too high. Someone that’s knows more than I (or you may all ready know) can maybe enlighten us as to why that is. Stock length? Comb? Short bbl’s? But for whatever reason many folks hold the gun with the bbls pointing up and tend to shoot high with an SXS. You don't see it with the 97's.

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As I understand it ,the barrels on a side by side are regulated to converge at a given distance ,if memory serves about 25 yards or so. You can check the pattern using a big piece of cardboard set out at say 15 yards with a cross marked in the middle. Aim at the center of the cross and shoot one barrel observe where the pattern is(left right center ) then shoot the other barrel again observe the pattern ,from this you can determine not only how you gun patterns but where,some guns are not regulated very well. but generally speaking at the distances we shoot in CAS it's really not too important ,unless you're shooting a thrown clay pigeon,then it is helpful to know where you gun shoots.

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CJ - Typically I shoot high when I do not get my head down (trying to speed up) so I am not actually looking down the barrel when I pull the trigger. The fit of the shotgun contributes to the tendency for this to happen under competition. Another thing I see while ROing is not getting the long guns on the shoulder properly before firing - the tendency is to get it too low on the shoulder which contributes to shooting high. The combination of these two is usually what bites me when I miss with a shotgun. Like you, I am not exactly aiming the thing anyway so it does not take much to get off target.

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Another point about good shotgun technique is keep your cheek planted on the stock.

 

You should only see the bead when aiming - if you see any rib you're going to overshoot. Put the bead center or a little low, and the KD's will fall.

 

Replacing the factory pimple with a big fat aftermarket bead helps too.

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It took me a long time to figure out that you bring the shotgun(and rifle) to your cheek, not your shoulder. This will allow the natural alignment of your sights when the cheeked long gun is pulled back into your shoulder. Makes a big difference.

 

I shoot the bead not the barrel.

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If your barrels are well regulated and you are mounting it properly, just put the bead in the center of the target and shoot. Unfortunately, many inexpensive doubles do not shoot to point of aim, or more commonly, the barrels shoot differently. I had one Stoeger where the r/h barrel was right on but the left, more tightly choked, barrel shot several inches to the left at CAS ranges. The left barrel was off enough that I was missing smaller, narrower targets. If you pattern your gun(recommended) test both barrels.

 

All of my other doubles are well regulated , including another Stoeger. I sold the other to a "door shark" at the local gun show.

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...to me, IMHO, there is no difference between an O/U or sxs or single barrel; and has been stated above, given that the shotgun is fitted to you; once the cheek weld and shoulder contact is made in conjunction with pulling through the target, moving or not, the trigger is pulled. More instinctive pointing (or is practiced pointing?) than aiming to me.

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A SXS is made with the theory that both barrels will shoot to the same POA some where close to 40 yards. It is called convergence and that point will vary from gun to gun. The gun is supposed to put it's highest shot count into a 36 inch circle at this range. Many shooters are under the impression that if they have a fixed or screw in modified choke gun that is how it shoots. That is completely false. You might have a coke marked so and it will give you improved modified or cylinder patterns instead. There is a lot of real work to find out where your gun patterns as you should shoot at least five targets from any given range and use the same shells and choke each set that YOU SHOOT. There is not a gun person anywhere on this earth that can tell you where a gun will shoot with out doing this test. A choke that has full written on it is for reference only, it's a ballpark figure. If you change from chilled to magnum shot in your loading then your patterns will also. Now don't misunderstand what I am saying as a KD that is only 7 yds away will not be a huge challenge but I have seen them missed and that has to do with the proper aiming. When I was firearms instructor for a large Sheriffs Office the shotgun training was the hardest for most recruits. You should aim at a man's belt buckle to hit him center mass with the buckshot load. That goes for KD's also. Aim at the bottom not the center and you will not miss. If you are close to a target and using a "SXS then you SHOULD NOT USE THE SIGHTS OR YOU WILL MISS WITH EVERY SHOT". Remember the convergence we talked about. In the State Match in Downsville,La. last year they had a 1inch piece of wood holding a door closed and you had to shoot it into before advancing with the shotgun. Many a shooter used up a lot of ammo at this stage. When very close with a SXS use the barrel you are shooting as your sight. In other words point the barrel at the wood and not the sight. One shooter kept saying but I am using my sight and that is why with each shot he was either left or right and the wood was safe. A few simple rules to remember. Later David

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You should only see the bead when aiming - if you see any rib you're going to overshoot. Put the bead center or a little low, and the KD's will fall.

 

Howdy

 

I will respectfully disagree with that statement. I ALWAYS see some of my rib. It is a holdover from Trap shooting where I also always see some of my rib. I don't overshoot the targets because I always hold a little bit low. The best advice you have been given is to put up some cardboard and pattern your gun. Mount it the same way you always do, then see where it actually hits for you the way you are accustomed to mounting the gun. Then adjust your point of aim according to where your gun is actually hitting.

 

Frankly, in our sport it doesn't make a bit of difference where the barrels are regulated to converge. The targets are big and close. It's a different thing if you are trying to knock a clay pigeon out of the air 40 yards away and going 35mph. Most of our targets are much easier than that.

 

I'm glad nobody has mentioned the bit about not aiming a shotgun but pointing it. Again, a holdover from clay sports. This ain't Skeet, treat your shotgun just like your rifle. Find out where it hits, and AIM it accordingly.

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Don't believe that all SXS are centered. I've had, and seen problems with some SXS that shot high and either to left or to the right, enough to miss. One should check their shotgun patters on a target and make adjustments, or move the sight. I've got a SXS exposed hammer which I raely use now, but I was missing KDs, swingers consistantly, till I patterned it, it showed it was shooting high by a foot and same to the left both barrels. By putting a different sight on, and moving location, shotgun was dead on, never missed a target again.

Present shotgun, SXS, I just aim the left barrel under targets, and rarely miss with both barrels, lot faster then using the sight, for me. MT

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Hardly any of the low end shotguns like we use have both barrels regulated to the same POI. But as others have said at the short distances we shoot it don't matter.

As so many above have said, most folks miss because they are shooting high over the target. My theory about that is becase the most of the shotguns we use have buttstocks that were originally are designed for aerial targets, or positive toe. When you point them toward the ground the positive toe of those stocks tends to dig into your shoulder when you fire. This will eventually cause the shooter to let the stock move down on shoulder which brings the front end up. Shot goes high. Savvy shooters will lean way into the shot but that usually doesn't’t work for the lady shooters. So, now that positive toe is nailing them. For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

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For me, a shot gun is NOT aimed at all. Mounting the shotgun needs to be automatic and consistent. Before, during, and after the gun is mounted, I look at the target and shoot where the target is gonna be when the shot gets there. Based upon years and years of experiece with double guns, fine bird dogs, very rough cover, and ruffed grouse galore.

 

prs

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I thank all of you who responded. Good advice. Will pattern test the gun and go from there. Do not have any problems with the '97, and I really did not think the problem I was having with the sxs was a big one.... just noticed that "it appeared" when shooting at the KD's sometimes I was not getting enough of the shot on target to KD. Thanks much for all.

 

Tom Horn

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For the shotguns besides shortening the stock I like cut them so the pad is about 5 degrees negative. That helps take some of the felt recoil away shooting at our ground targets.

 

I've done that to all my shotguns since I heard about this trick, and it makes a huge difference. By changing the angle on the buttstock it also keeps the muzzles from climbing, so the second shot is already on the same plane as the next target. The positive angle sporting shotguns come with may be OK for shooting birds and clays, but it's a real detriment to cowboying.

 

Now track down Deuce Stevens' thread & video on reloading the SxS for even more good information.

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If your barrels are well regulated and you are mounting it properly, just put the bead in the center of the target and shoot. Unfortunately, many inexpensive doubles do not shoot to point of aim, or more commonly, the barrels shoot differently. I had one Stoeger where the r/h barrel was right on but the left, more tightly choked, barrel shot several inches to the left at CAS ranges. The left barrel was off enough that I was missing smaller, narrower targets. If you pattern your gun(recommended) test both barrels.

 

All of my other doubles are well regulated , including another Stoeger. I sold the other to a "door shark" at the local gun show.

 

Tom, pattern your gun for sure. I have a Stoeger that was just as Buffalo Dick described, also at 12 to 15 yards the left barrel held a pattern about the size of my fist. I reamed the chokes to open then up and pulled the reamer slightly toward center on the left barrel. It was probably just dumb luck but it brought the pattern to near center. Before doing this I almost never hit a clay bird off our Pigeon flipper targets at the Corral, now I hit most of them. If your gun has screw in tubes you might want to try Skeet & Skeet for a more open pattern.

 

Hope to see you Feb. 5th.

 

Randy

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For me, a shot gun is NOT aimed at all. Mounting the shotgun needs to be automatic and consistent. Before, during, and after the gun is mounted, I look at the target and shoot where the target is gonna be when the shot gets there. Based upon years and years of experiece with double guns, fine bird dogs, very rough cover, and ruffed grouse galore.

 

With great respect, I repeat what I said before. This ain't Skeet or any other shotgun sport with moving targets. There ain't no such thing as 'where the target is gonna be' in CAS. The target ain't moving. I too shoot where the target is going to be in Trap. But the targets are standing still in CAS. Aiming the shotgun like a rifle is going to work better for most non-wingshooters in CAS.

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Don't believe that all SXS are centered. I've had, and seen problems with some SXS that shot high and either to left or to the right, enough to miss. One should check their shotgun patters on a target and make adjustments, or move the sight. I've got a SXS exposed hammer which I raely use now, but I was missing KDs, swingers consistantly, till I patterned it, it showed it was shooting high by a foot and same to the left both barrels. By putting a different sight on, and moving location, shotgun was dead on, never missed a target again.

Present shotgun, SXS, I just aim the left barrel under targets, and rarely miss with both barrels, lot faster then using the sight, for me. MT

 

 

+1 that’s what I was referring to with the bbl's not being “right”. I have personally seen an SXS I won't mention any names (Stoeger) that a top shooter in our area borrowed from another shooter at a match. He had a rough match and missed several KD’s and rarely misses any. After the match we found that one bbl was VERY tight and VERY high and right. The other was right on....which led to the confusion while shooting it. With the small pattern and the POI you couldn't hit a small KD @ 10 yards....you had to correct for it. I guess if the targets are set so light a stiff breeze would knock em’ down they would have fell because some shot was hitting them but very little. Maybe it's one in 10 maybe it's one in a 1000 or more but I have seen it I promise.

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With great respect, I repeat what I said before. This ain't Skeet or any other shotgun sport with moving targets. There ain't no such thing as 'where the target is gonna be' in CAS. The target ain't moving. I too shoot where the target is going to be in Trap. But the targets are standing still in CAS. Aiming the shotgun like a rifle is going to work better for most non-wingshooters in CAS.

+1 In our orientation class I tell the new to cowboy action shooters that pointing is fine for accomplished wing shooters, and I will not argue with that. I say what we are doing is combat shooting, aim the shotgun like a rifle and you will hit like a rifle. I shoot a 30" full choke 97 and the only birds I have ever shot have been the occasional flyer at CAS.

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I love these shotgun posts on the SASS WAHR as it seems the most difficult gun for cowboys to shoot and load well. It's often repeated that matches are won with the shotgun, lost with the pistol and the rifle is break even.

 

That said, the shotgun is sighted in by the way the stock fits the shooter. It's difficult to shoot quickly because of the recoil if you have to aim it every time AND the stock doesn't fit.

 

To discover the POI for YOU the gun has to be patterned just like a rifle has to be sighted in on paper before changing anything. To do this properly, pace off 16 paces and put up a big sheet of paper or cardboard (4'X4') at about eye level. Most all trap/skeet ranges have a patterning board somewhere. Spray paint a big red 6" dot in the middle. At the 16 yard line hold the gun at port arms, bring it to your CHEEK and look only at the dot. PULL THE TRIGGER WHEN THE GUN HITS YOUR CHEEK. Don't worry... it will find your shoulder.

 

If you wait until the gun is on your shoulder and you're sighting it exactly down the rib and bead then you have 'jimmied' your head, neck, shoulder around until it's all lined up. Think how long that took.

 

Then once you get it patterned you'll have to move the stock until it "SHOOTS WHERE YOU'RE LOOKIN'". Guaranteed there is a local stock fitter that can sand or bend it for you.

 

Or suck up many seconds and fractions and reloads and misses and reshoots (KD'S) and dropped poppers until you do.

 

The easiest fix for our sport is what Nate described. MOST guns are set up this way and it's the one "FIX" that can make the biggest difference. The other HUGE difference is that cheap SXS's barrels just aren't accurately set up right (converged) from the factory. If you have a cheap one it may not be a bargain and many aren't. The only thing that makes them serviceable is that we're shooting targets that are seldom more than 10 yards.

 

But, I've also seen a couple of higher dollar o/u 's that had the same problem. You just can't know until you shoot them.

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