Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am starting to get interested in all of the Wild Bunch matches in my area and want to put together a fairly accurate U.S. Army uniform of the "Wild Bunch era". I would much appreciate any suggestions on where such merchandise might be obtained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Start Here. And Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Actually, you probably want to start here for clothing and here for leather gear. (Scroll down the page for the hysterically correct lesther gear.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Dear Captain Baylor, You have helped me immensely by providing the costume information!!! Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dear Captain Baylor, You have helped me immensely by providing the costume information!!! Allie Mo Does that mean you're coming as a soldadera with crossed bandoliers of Mauser ammunition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Much obliged for the info on Coon Creek Old West. I should have mentioned that I have the weapons and the leather/canvas goods covered. I am mainly looking for a period correct uniform source. Are there any others out there? One other point. I have the campaign hat. Is there a good source for a leather chin strap for one of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall John Joseph Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 http://whatpriceglory.com/ MJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 www.quartermastershop.com They specialize in Civil War uniforms, but look through the site and they have stuff all the way up to the 1899 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Does that mean you're coming as a soldadera with crossed bandoliers of Mauser ammunition? She better not forget the light coat of oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Start Here. And Here. +1 for Cooncreekoldwest.com Leta does really good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Schipperfabrik is another good source. http://www.schipperfabrik.com/store/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Does that mean you're coming as a soldadera with crossed bandoliers of Mauser ammunition? Hi Captain, I wish I could say yes. I even have two costumes that would work well. I keep waiting on hubby to give me a 1911 to shoot... He's got several; but says I can't operate the slides (based on past attempts). He said he's working on it (that was months ago). What it means is that I talked the MD at the California State Wild Bunch Championship into giving an award for best dressed WB contestant. He said fine, go for it. So, I have to pick one. Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi Captain, I wish I could say yes. I even have two costumes that would work well. I keep waiting on hubby to give me a 1911 to shoot... He's got several; but says I can't operate the slides (based on past attempts). He said he's working on it (that was months ago). What it means is that I talked the MD at the California State Wild Bunch Championship into giving an award for best dressed WB contestant. He said fine, go for it. So, I have to pick one. Allie Mo Sorry for the hijack, OP you've gotten some good answers. Allie, I had a 1911 custom built on a Caspian frame and slide in 9mm. With the lighter caliber it uses a much lighter recoil spring (9 pounds if memory serves me), and it runs very easily. You might consider something like this...but then again, I have over $3500 invested in this gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Sorry for the hijack, OP you've gotten some good answers. Allie, I had a 1911 custom built on a Caspian frame and slide in 9mm. With the lighter caliber it uses a much lighter recoil spring (9 pounds if memory serves me), and it runs very easily. You might consider something like this...but then again, I have over $3500 invested in this gun! Hey Cyrus, Are you trying to confuse me? The WB rules say, "1911 PISTOL REQUIREMENTS Full size single stack steel frame 1911 style semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP caliber." So, it doesn't seem that a 9mm would be legal. Did I miss something? Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hey Cyrus, Are you trying to confuse me? The WB rules say, "1911 PISTOL REQUIREMENTS Full size single stack steel frame 1911 style semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP caliber." So, it doesn't seem that a 9mm would be legal. Did I miss something? Regards, Allie Mo No, you didn't miss anything. But what it means is, you MIGHT be able to tailor a load down as close to the minimum power factor as possible. By doing that you'd also change out the recoil spring in your 1911 to a lighter spring. That would ease the operation of the slide for you. Again, all this is "MAYBE". You don't want to get too close to the minimum power factor because environmental changes like temperature, humidity, altitude, etc. might cause you to drop below it and risk a Match DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grapeshot 8553 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Grapeshot Look out, I'm hunting Villista's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hi Captain, I wish I could say yes. I even have two costumes that would work well. I keep waiting on hubby to give me a 1911 to shoot... He's got several; but says I can't operate the slides (based on past attempts). He said he's working on it (that was months ago). What it means is that I talked the MD at the California State Wild Bunch Championship into giving an award for best dressed WB contestant. He said fine, go for it. So, I have to pick one. Allie Mo Dear Allie, Before you get too much more conflicting advice, let me add some things. 1. While I'm aware you have some strength problems, before you completely discard the idea of shooting WB, please try out the technique shown HERE, This method was taught all Israelis who get carry permits. Back when the earth was flat and my hair was brown, I taught this techniques to about 50 Army nurses, and all managed it, including the cute 100 lb. ladies. Now I'm the one with strength problems, needing 2 surgeries on the left arm/hand and no guarantee of ever regaining full usage. But this still works for me 2. You can't mess with a 1911 too much and still have it work with the ammunition required. If you try to cut the ammo close to the minimum, you'll get DQed. It's a waste of effort anyway. If you can't handle ammo at PF 165, you can't handle it at PF 151. 151 becomes 149 with disgusting regularity at major matches. You can't go much below a 16 lb. recoil spring (16 is stock and still recommended). If someone tells you to put in a super light recoil spring and a Shok Buff, he's probably not your friend in this matter. You can put in a lighter mainspring. If it's heavy enough to pop primers, then it's good. That will make it easier to rack the slide. Another thing you can do (without needing a gunsmith or your husband) is, as you draw the weapon, cock the hammer with your strong side thumb(at 45°, of course). That reduces the pressure needed to rack the slide. Then you use the punch technique taught above. Not the fastest technique, but it lightens the pressure needed to rack the slide. Definitely would like to see you in a Soldadera outfit, Mauser bandoliers or no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Schipperfabrik is another good source. http://www.schipperfabrik.com/store/index.php Hello Pete!!! $224-$425 for a uniform!!! I think Ill stick to Coon Creek, or second hand stuff at Siagon Sam's. Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Jefro: I hear ya on the cost. I have scoped out What Price Glory as well and although I do appreciate quality goods, it would seem that since I am only going to use the outfit a couple or three times a year (got lot's of other cowboy duds) it might be wise to keep the expenditure on the lower extreme. That is why I bought a $60 campaign hat instead of a $275 one. Can anyone help we with a leather chin strap for my cheap campaign hat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hello Pete!!! $224-$425 for a uniform!!! I think Ill stick to Coon Creek, or second hand stuff at Siagon Sam's. Jefro Is Saigon Sam's still across from the New River Gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Wild Bill Peters, Check police and fire uniform supply stores. I know at least one had the chin straps but I can not find the catalog. Leon's Uniform in St. Louis may have it but they are not the one I was thinking of. Hope this helps Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Hey Cyrus, Are you trying to confuse me? The WB rules say, "1911 PISTOL REQUIREMENTS Full size single stack steel frame 1911 style semi-auto pistol in .45 ACP caliber." So, it doesn't seem that a 9mm would be legal. Did I miss something? Regards, Allie Mo Keep in mind I'm playing Army right now. The last time I actually shot a SASS match there was no such thing as a recognized Wild Bunch category. It was a side match, not recognized by SASS rules, and only offered at certain clubs. Quite frankly, I liked it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Cyrus, I understand. Thanks! Captain, you're the best. I will try that. I do love the way the bandoliers look Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Is Saigon Sam's still across from the New River Gate? Howdy Bad Hand, yep, it's still there Campiagn hat $17 for the wool, $34 for the blend. Jefro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Captain, I wish I could say yes. I even have two costumes that would work well. I keep waiting on hubby to give me a 1911 to shoot... He's got several; but says I can't operate the slides (based on past attempts). He said he's working on it (that was months ago). What it means is that I talked the MD at the California State Wild Bunch Championship into giving an award for best dressed WB contestant. He said fine, go for it. So, I have to pick one. Allie Mo Start with elbows touching sides with weak hand grab slide which ever way is stronger thumb down range or pointing back towards you. Shove pistol forward with strong hand until slide is fully open then release grip on slide (these instructions assume loaded mag in gun. Pushing the pistol is much easier than pulling the slide YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lee Bishop Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Actually, you probably want to start here for clothing and here for leather gear. (Scroll down the page for the hysterically correct lesther gear.) The problem is although those two links are halfway decent, they have some inaccuracies for the movie itself. The US Army uniforms worn in the movie aren’t 100% correct for the time period. They used mostly WW2 web gear, leggings and shirts (you can see they button all the way down instead of the pullover style used until after WW1. There are other details, too many for me to name here.As much as I like Coon Creek as a company, the cotton uniforms aren’t a correct match for the movie uniforms other than the patterns they used as the real/movie uniforms were a totally different color and in wool. You have to decide early on if doing a WB look if you want to be: Correct for the original time period. Correct for the Movie. Comfortable. You can only pick one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Captain Bishop: Great post. You are absolutely correct. I have the DVD of the Wild Bunch and have looked closely at the uniforms/equipment employed and frankly, for a movie made in 1969, it was pretty accurate. I know, close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades, but for those of us who tend toward the historically correct end of the spectrum, little errors are noticed. This said, price and comfort are factors to be considered since I don't plan to wear this outfit to every match. My 1870's cavalry uniform is accurate and in wool and it does get a might hot in the middle of the summer even if I don't live in the Southwest. I am trying to make the decision you allude to and looking for as many options as I can get. By the way, I found the chin strap at What Price Glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 The problem is although those two links are halfway decent, they have some inaccuracies for the movie itself. The US Army uniforms worn in the movie aren’t 100% correct for the time period. They used mostly WW2 web gear, leggings and shirts (you can see they button all the way down instead of the pullover style used until after WW1. There are other details, too many for me to name here.As much as I like Coon Creek as a company, the cotton uniforms aren’t a correct match for the movie uniforms other than the patterns they used as the real/movie uniforms were a totally different color and in wool. You have to decide early on if doing a WB look if you want to be: Correct for the original time period. Correct for the Movie. Comfortable. You can only pick one. I'm sure you'll correct all of the inaccuracies in Wild Bunch for Dummies in your website. Thanks for making my prophesy come true: The Scary Part Why did I save this for last? Because I know that whatever I write about uniforms of the American Punitive Expedition, someone will come on the SASS Wire immediately and tell me I'm wrong. So I'll just admit it. I've put one or more items here that are not correct. Nowhere in that site was I proposing matching the movie uniforms, which are horrible. If you want to match the movie uniforms and "play" one of the movie characters, that's fine. Just tell the Judges at the costume contest. It has been done and done well. As for wool, there are clearly photos of troops wearing wool uniforms. There are also photos of troops wearing cotton uniforms. The M1912 and M1916 uniforms both came in wool and cotton. The regulations called for cotton in warm climates, but it was, after all, the Army. They probably issued more of them in Maine in winter. Both, due to the quality of the dyes of the day, faded unpredictably (as did the hats). Buck and Leta (Coon Creek) sell M1912 replicas. The difference between M1912 and M1916 uniforms is pocket flaps on the blouse. Buck and Leta sell trousers with no front pockets, but 2 rear pockets. Pockets varied. Mounted troops were supposed to get slash front pockets and no rear pockets. The rear pockets only were probably an idea from an officer/martinet who didn't like seeing troops with their hands in their pockets. General Pershing is shown with his hand in a vertical pocket. Leta duplicated these for me along with a M1916 shirt. There are photos of troops with slash pockets. These are probably the mounted troops version without rear pockets. If you want to wear a wool uniform at a SASS WB match in August, knock yourself out. As long as I can come up with photos of troops wearing cotton, I'll wear cotton. Anyway, officers bought their own uniforms, so they were more likely to have the latest uniform, and more likely to have cotton. RHIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Captain Baylor: I have read your entire article on the uniforms and accoutrements of the Puntitive Expedition and agree with you completely that there were numerous variations in what was available and to whom it was available. I don't believe the U.S Army got the "standardization" thing down pat until WW II and then there were also exceptions...at least in the uniforms of the general staff. Eisenhower, McArthur and Patton come immediately to mind. I do like the idea of cotton instead of wool. This said, were your pants with front slash pockets and M1916 shirt "one offs" or can they be special ordered? I guess I will contact Leta and see what I can get done. Thanks again for all of the input. It has been very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Rose Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Schipperfabrik is another good source. http://www.schipperfabrik.com/store/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Rose Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Captain, I wish I could say yes. I even have two costumes that would work well. I keep waiting on hubby to give me a 1911 to shoot... He's got several; but says I can't operate the slides (based on past attempts). He said he's working on it (that was months ago). What it means is that I talked the MD at the California State Wild Bunch Championship into giving an award for best dressed WB contestant. He said fine, go for it. So, I have to pick one. Allie Mo Hi Allie, When I started shooting semi-auto pistols, I had trouble operating the slide too. I began doing bicep curls and tricep pulls with weights and did squeezes with a foam ball for girp strength. In no time I noticed a difference in my arm and grip strength. My arms don't get as tired in regular CAS too. What's next, a shooting workout DVD? hahaha! Just my 2 cents. Tumbleweed Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Captain Baylor: I have read your entire article on the uniforms and accoutrements of the Puntitive Expedition and agree with you completely that there were numerous variations in what was available and to whom it was available. I don't believe the U.S Army got the "standardization" thing down pat until WW II and then there were also exceptions...at least in the uniforms of the general staff. Eisenhower, McArthur and Patton come immediately to mind. I do like the idea of cotton instead of wool. This said, were your pants with front slash pockets and M1916 shirt "one offs" or can they be special ordered? I guess I will contact Leta and see what I can get done. Thanks again for all of the input. It has been very helpful. The M1916 shirt and trousers with front pockets are one-offs. I showed them this photo of General Pershing with his hand in his pocket. I'm picking them up at WR. Haven't seen them yet. I'm sure she would do them for you. She starts with the standard uniform and adds the pocket flaps and trouser pockets. Just remind her I'll need my cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 The problem is although those two links are halfway decent, they have some inaccuracies for the movie itself. The US Army uniforms worn in the movie aren’t 100% correct for the time period. They used mostly WW2 web gear, leggings and shirts (you can see they button all the way down instead of the pullover style used until after WW1. There are other details, too many for me to name here.As much as I like Coon Creek as a company, the cotton uniforms aren’t a correct match for the movie uniforms other than the patterns they used as the real/movie uniforms were a totally different color and in wool. You have to decide early on if doing a WB look if you want to be: Correct for the original time period. Correct for the Movie. Comfortable. You can only pick one. HALFWAY DECENT?? Dang. You forgot to throw in a harrumph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Peterson, SASS # 48420 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Captain Baylor: I know that we cannot do commercial posts here, but how much should I have Leta cut you in for? Would 10% be appropriate? I am not sure if that would be 10% more fabric in the trousers or perhaps in the shirt. Perhaps a couple of extra buttons. Maybe the best reward would be to call them the Captain Baylor WB Uniform...summer weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lee Bishop Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I'm sure you'll correct all of the inaccuracies in Wild Bunch for Dummies in your website. Thanks for making my prophesy come true: Nowhere in that site was I proposing matching the movie uniforms, which are horrible. If you want to match the movie uniforms and "play" one of the movie characters, that's fine. Just tell the Judges at the costume contest. It has been done and done well. As for wool, there are clearly photos of troops wearing wool uniforms. There are also photos of troops wearing cotton uniforms. The M1912 and M1916 uniforms both came in wool and cotton. The regulations called for cotton in warm climates, but it was, after all, the Army. They probably issued more of them in Maine in winter. Both, due to the quality of the dyes of the day, faded unpredictably (as did the hats). Buck and Leta (Coon Creek) sell M1912 replicas. The difference between M1912 and M1916 uniforms is pocket flaps on the blouse. Buck and Leta sell trousers with no front pockets, but 2 rear pockets. Pockets varied. Mounted troops were supposed to get slash front pockets and no rear pockets. The rear pockets only were probably an idea from an officer/martinet who didn't like seeing troops with their hands in their pockets. General Pershing is shown with his hand in a vertical pocket. Leta duplicated these for me along with a M1916 shirt. There are photos of troops with slash pockets. These are probably the mounted troops version without rear pockets. If you want to wear a wool uniform at a SASS WB match in August, knock yourself out. As long as I can come up with photos of troops wearing cotton, I'll wear cotton. Anyway, officers bought their own uniforms, so they were more likely to have the latest uniform, and more likely to have cotton. RHIP Forgive me for daring to point out what wasn’t obvious and that people wouldn’t realize there was a difference between what was used in the movie and your historical examples. Having done a lot of research on the subject and owning a few examples of original uniforms (as well as a screen-used shirt from the movie itself) I have no idea what I was thinking, bucking against the legend that is you. I defer to your infinite knowledge in all things from now until the end of time. I’ve seen the error of my ways for transgressing against a regular contributor to The Chronicle. I’ll say my Hail Mary’s and never bother you again. And I will walk away, bowing and scraping as I do, forever leaving you to your thread and the info it contains, questionable or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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