Indian Turban Question

[GunClick Rick]

[Dog Ears Wilson, SASS #77948]

Very interesting thread. It should be noted that for the sikh (usually pronounced "seek" by westerners) man the wearing of his turban (called a dastar or dastaar) is not a matter of fashion. In fact, it is a sign of his devotion and it is considered disgraceful to be seen in public without it.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

From the SASS handbook:

 

Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but

all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-western movie, or Western television

series.....

 

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how

it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

Sikhs started settling in the western territories in the latter part of the 1890s, predominately as farmers, miners and railroad workers.

A Sikh dressed in 1890s garb, complete with turban would certainly be acceptable.

 

Wild Shot

 

+1

[Seldom Seen #16162]

I don't see a problem,but if it were me i would dawn the attire of my host out of respect.I would not wear a cowboy hat to a Sikh shoot in India,not at first anyway.Tell the Sikh to suck it up for a day or two or find i real large cover..

 

There are two views of the Old West, the Reel vs. the Real.

 

The Reel West is what you are describing. Good guys wear white hats, bad guys wear black hats, sterotyping of helpless honest women and of shady ladies with a heart of gold , greedy bankers.

 

The Real West on the other hand was a vast colorful melting pot of races and cultures. I find it to be much more interesting.

[Marshal Max Henry]

If a Sikh seeks to shoot he should seek a sunshade to wear to a shoot and that single Sikh should respect you the majority just to shoot a saturday or so.

 

I don't see a problem,but if it were me i would dawn the attire of my host out of respect.I would not wear a cowboy hat to a Sikh shoot in India,not at first anyway.Tell the Sikh to suck it up for a day or two or find i real large cover..

I haveto agree. It is America and we are free but if it is not "in the spirit" as we say then it should not be done. I am sick of this PC World we live in. My Father is in a Viet Nam Vet Motorcycle club. I always wanted to be in it but I CAN NOT I am not nor will I ever be a VN Vet. My Pop even pushed for them to make an exception and I asked him not to. I am not expecting them to do this for me. Its a club. Clubs have rules. There were double action pistols in the Ole West but we cant use them. Thats the rule. Im sory this just touched a nerve with me. I realize that all of our forfathers are not native but it seems that these Countrys are making a mockery of our Constitution by useing it against us. I dont profess to know everything but im sure this person will not go to hell if they take it off(the Turban That is) I mean realy How many of these people came to America in the 1850's -1900? Actually i would like to know.Not being a smart A$$ . I want tosee thesport grow andI donotwant to exclude anyone Im sure he could wear a real small one andputitunder his HOSS hat lol

 

IMHO

[Chantry]

Howdy Chantry.

 

Found this site that has a number of interesting photos from the 1800's ... http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.ph...&viewfull=1 of Sikhs serving in the British Army.

 

Thanks for the link, very interresting!

[Chantry]

I haveto agree. It is America and we are free but if it is not "in the spirit" as we say then it should not be done. I am sick of this PC World we live in. My Father is in a Viet Nam Vet Motorcycle club. I always wanted to be in it but I CAN NOT I am not nor will I ever be a VN Vet. My Pop even pushed for them to make an exception and I asked him not to. I am not expecting them to do this for me. Its a club. Clubs have rules. There were double action pistols in the Ole West but we cant use them. Thats the rule. Im sory this just touched a nerve with me. I realize that all of our forfathers are not native but it seems that these Countrys are making a mockery of our Constitution by useing it against us. I dont profess to know everything but im sure this person will not go to hell if they take it off(the Turban That is) I mean realy How many of these people came to America in the 1850's -1900? Actually i would like to know.Not being a smart A$$ . I want tosee thesport grow andI donotwant to exclude anyone Im sure he could wear a real small one andputitunder his HOSS hat lol

 

IMHO

 

And perhaps you should do some research before showing your ignorance. Among other things the Sikh religon REQUIRES them to wear the turban.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in_the_United_States

[Utah Bob #35998]

I haveto agree. It is America and we are free but if it is not "in the spirit" as we say then it should not be done. I am sick of this PC World we live in. My Father is in a Viet Nam Vet Motorcycle club. I always wanted to be in it but I CAN NOT I am not nor will I ever be a VN Vet. My Pop even pushed for them to make an exception and I asked him not to. I am not expecting them to do this for me. Its a club. Clubs have rules. There were double action pistols in the Ole West but we cant use them. Thats the rule. Im sory this just touched a nerve with me. I realize that all of our forfathers are not native but it seems that these Countrys are making a mockery of our Constitution by useing it against us. I dont profess to know everything but im sure this person will not go to hell if they take it off(the Turban That is) I mean realy How many of these people came to America in the 1850's -1900? Actually i would like to know.Not being a smart A$$ . I want tosee thesport grow andI donotwant to exclude anyone Im sure he could wear a real small one andputitunder his HOSS hat lol

 

IMHO

 

There are no rules against turbans.

 

You're right, this is America. As far as I'm concerned that means he's free to wear it here. I defend his right to do so.

 

However, if you'll note, the original post was from a pard in Australia.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

From the SASS handbook:

 

Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but

all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-western movie, or Western television

series.....

 

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how

it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

Sikhs started settling in the western territories in the latter part of the 1890s, predominately as farmers, miners and railroad workers.

A Sikh dressed in 1890s garb, complete with turban would certainly be acceptable.

 

Wild Shot

Many thanks for an official ruling, Wild Shot. SASS isn't a motorcycle MC. SASS/CAS is a game. It's certainly a game of costumes and fantasy. It's not meant to mimic or portray your own personal political persuasions or bigotries either for that matter. What your daddy did may be a great story, but it has no place here especially when it is paraded in a vain attempt to prevent someone else from enjoying the celebration of what HIS daddy did.

 

And if your daddy fought to prevent someone else from practicing their right to their religious beliefs then he sure as hell didn't fight for the same Constitution that mine did. Please post the name of the club that won't allow a shooter to dress like Tonto. Mohawk from Austrailia, Scremin' Squaw from IL and other great shooters in our sport should know which shoots to avoid. I'd like to avoid them as well.

[Marshal Max Henry]

And perhaps you should do some research before showing your ignorance. Among other things the Sikh religon REQUIRES them to wear the turban.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_in_the_United_States

I see once again a person cant say what they feel with out being attacked. But hey, your able to speak your mind as i am. But i did not see any harm in expressing that the person could wear a small one under his hat. In lieu of this I thought i made a valid point but one must not risk ofense in our PC world.

 

OH and to learn something,your link was appriciated, i read about it. There were Sikhs in California and Oregon. According to your link they did not come farther West until 2Oth Century.,

[Rufus Brady]

Many tribes in the SE wore turbans (Cherokee, Chickasaw and Seminole). The Indian Removal Act and Trail of Tears was in 1838-9. Indian Relocation Act was 1832, I think.

 

Regardless, as a Freemason, I think he should be allowed some leeway.

[Rufus Brady]

Many tribes in the SE wore turbans (Cherokee, Chickasaw and Seminole). The Indian Removal Act and Trail of Tears was in 1838-9. Indian Relocation Act was 1832, I think.

 

Regardless, as a Freemason, I think he should be allowed some leeway.

[Doc Windshadow]

The Adams was never deployed overseas to territorial folks in great numbers. The contract for the first ISSUE cartridge guns for British foreign service went to a company called "Webley-Green" (not webley-scott), and though given the contract, the facility was too small to make enough guns, so they redid the CARTRIDGE, creating, in 1873, a round called ".45 WEBLEY" (not .455 or .450), that featured a rim exactly the same diameter and thickness as a .45 Colt, and about the same length as it's cousin the .455 Webley aka Colt/Eley, or slightly shorter than ACP, for use in the Webley Green and COLT SINGLE ACTION ARMY revolvers produced as a sublet under the Webley-Green contract. The "London Colts" were made under Colt license, chambered in .45 COLT and shipped alongside the W-G, chambered in .45 WEBLEY, and both used the same round. The .45 Webley is the first to use a .452 bullet, a 200 grainer, and is, like the Adams, boxer primed, something not available to the US makers until after 1880, when patent dispute was settled by Eley buying Adams out, so licensing could and did immediately commence). At that time all american ammo was inside primed.

 

This bit of obscure trivia (Barnes doesn't even acknowledge the .45 WEBLEY round) came to me when I found in my stuff a .45 WEB round loaded by winchester, and began to do the research that led me to know I had already re-created the round (albeit .040 longer) in the C45S

 

old .45 rounds

L-R: .450 Adams (aka .45 Revolver, circa 1867), .45 Webley, circa 1873 (a 200 grain bullet over black), C45S, .45 Schofield (originally inside primed), and .45 Colt.

Most interesting so the UK never did adopt an official single action side arm? just had things like the Colt SAA etc. on the list of things that officers could buy on their own?

Was the Webley-Green a look alike to the Adams and Webley DA guns? I don't think I have ever seen one.

Was there not a Revolver in the 19th cent that had 2 triggers one to cock the gun and one to fire?

 

Cheers

Windy

PS:

(and count me in the group that says if your faith requires a certain costume that is between you and your faith I will not get involved with what you can and can not wear (out side of things like a full face mask making an identity check impossible I think that religions should adapt to the requirements (public safety etc) of the times where needed.) thinking a bit on this a faith that required full nudity a all times might have other problems in the colder parts of the world... and I can not see human sacrifice getting very far these days but a huge number of practices and dress have been adopted by the faiths of the world over the millennia

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Sikhs started immigrating to the United States in 1897. Some Sikhs came straight from India, while others came from the far east, where they had immigrated decades ago. There were thousands of Sikhs living in California and the other western states by the end of the first decade of the 20th century. But the vast majority of them were singles because they couldn't bring their families due to the strict immigration laws. They couldn't buy property and land due to the immigration laws either. So the majority of them either returned to India after a few years, or married women of Mexican ancestry. Early Sikhs mainly worked on agricultural or railroad construction jobs. Some of them worked in mines and lumber mills also.

 

Railroad workers

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

But i did not see any harm in expressing that the person could wear a small one under his hat. In lieu of this I thought i made a valid point but one must not risk ofense in our PC world.

 

OH and to learn something,your link was appriciated, i read about it. There were Sikhs in California and Oregon. According to your link they did not come farther West until 2Oth Century.,

Your Stetson is another Sikhs' turban or a banker's bowler. As long as there is no specific requirement for the category then you're free to wear whatever YOUR fantasy dictates.

 

My "PC WORLD" really has little to do with what someone else might think. It has to do with respect for each individual's right to play this game according to their own preferences which include far more than the tip of their hat.

 

You might want to get out a map of the USA. Last I looked there ain't much US further west than California and Oregon.

 

I often wonder why it is that noobies get into CAS thinking that this is some sort of an historical reinactment and then attempt to enforce their own "correctness" onto the rest of the entire sport.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

From the SASS handbook:

 

Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but

all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-western movie, or Western television

series.....

 

ALL clothing and equipment MUST be worn appropriately, how it was intended and how

it would have been worn in the OLD WEST or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

Sikhs started settling in the western territories in the latter part of the 1890s, predominately as farmers, miners and railroad workers.

A Sikh dressed in 1890s garb, complete with turban would certainly be acceptable.

 

Wild Shot

 

Seems the rule book has most everything covered in it

 

GG ~

[GunClick Rick]

~~~You got the money honey,we got the time~~~

you buy some guns and ammo we'll have a

big ole time~

You wear your hat, and i'll wear mine

You got the money honey,we got the time~~

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

As far as I'm concerned, everyone is welcome anytime.

 

SASS is exclusive only in so far as the type of shooting we do.

 

I have a friend who is a Sikh and he wears a tuban. He drives a big rig for a living, but he's as good a Cowboy as any that I've met. In fact he's a really good roper.

 

And by the way, his family has been in the San Joaquin Valley since before California was part of the United States. The came over in 1849 looking for gold like millions of others.

 

I don't know about States back East like Missouri, but out here they've been around here for longer than most folks might realize.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Most interesting so the UK never did adopt an official single action side arm? just had things like the Colt SAA etc. on the list of things that officers could buy on their own?

Was the Webley-Green a look alike to the Adams and Webley DA guns? I don't think I have ever seen one.

Was there not a Revolver in the 19th cent that had 2 triggers one to cock the gun and one to fire?

 

Cheers

Windy

PS:

(and count me in the group that says if your faith requires a certain costume that is between you and your faith I will not get involved with what you can and can not wear (out side of things like a full face mask making an identity check impossible I think that religions should adapt to the requirements (public safety etc) of the times where needed.) thinking a bit on this a faith that required full nudity a all times might have other problems in the colder parts of the world... and I can not see human sacrifice getting very far these days but a huge number of practices and dress have been adopted by the faiths of the world over the millennia

I can't vouch for the lineage of official side arms for the regular "home" army, but I know this bit about the "Foreign Services", which at the time included a huge commitment in India..... It seems the royal contracts were let seperately for the main force and the foreign service regiments. I'm no historian, but have read extensively about the short Brit cartridges of .45 Caliber, as I have a passing interest in the type

[Marshal Max Henry]

Your Stetson is another Sikhs' turban or a banker's bowler. As long as there is no specific requirement for the category then you're free to wear whatever YOUR fantasy dictates.

 

My "PC WORLD" really has little to do with what someone else might think. It has to do with respect for each individual's right to play this game according to their own preferences which include far more than the tip of their hat.

 

You might want to get out a map of the USA. Last I looked there ain't much US further west than California and Oregon.

 

I often wonder why it is that noobies get into CAS thinking that this is some sort of an historical reinactment and then attempt to enforce their own "correctness" onto the rest of the entire sport.

 

 

Touche. I stand corrected You are right I come from Civil War reenacting and i guess its an old habit. as Far as MY Geography lesson i really stepped on it but my point was west as far as Cowboy West. Were they were hunting Buffalo and ranchig cattle. Etc I should not have implied my politics on here. I am just a Patriot that gets rilled up. PLease forgive me.

[Diamond Dave Anthony]

A Sikh turban would have been far more likely to be seen in a Western town than a concho'd buscadero rig, a purple fringed shirt and huge sheepskin chaps.

 

Seriously, even outside of B-Western, folks come up with some pretty outlandish costumes. A turban is subtle compared to that.

 

And for anyone who says, "Aw, c'mon, he ain't gonna go ta Hell fer not wearin' a turban," I guess I just have to yield to your comprehensive knowledge of the Sikh faith, its obligations, and the acceptable level of adherence by its believers.

 

(BTW, I'm an agnostic myself, but I once took an Internet quiz on what religion I should be, and it came out Sikh. I looked it up, and it's a pretty darn nice religion.)

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

As far as I'm concerned, everyone is welcome anytime.

 

SASS is exclusive only in so far as the type of shooting we do.

 

I have a friend who is a Sikh and he wears a tuban. He drives a big rig for a living, but he's as good a Cowboy as any that I've met. In fact he's a really good roper.

 

And by the way, his family has been in the San Joaquin Valley since before California was part of the United States. The came over in 1849 looking for gold like millions of others.

 

I don't know about States back East like Missouri, but out here they've been around here for longer than most folks might realize.

 

Can you ask him if he has any old photos. If so, maybe that could help the pard develop a costume.

 

 

Allie

[Utah Bob #35998]

Touche. I stand corrected You are right I come from Civil War reenacting and i guess its an old habit. as Far as MY Geography lesson i really stepped on it but my point was west as far as Cowboy West. Were they were hunting Buffalo and ranchig cattle. Etc I should not have implied my politics on here. I am just a Patriot that gets rilled up. PLease forgive me.

 

Good for you.

[Trailrider #896]

Why couldn't a Sikh who is a British officer have been sent here on exchange, much like McClellan, et al, went to Europe? As such, he might be offered the use of Colt's while in the field with U.S. troops. Have your friend look at British army uniforms of the 1880's. He can also join the Grand Army of the Frontier, as we have non-U.S. inspired members.