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Deadeye Dallas, SASS #60249

73 Short Stroke Puzzle

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We have one Uberti 73 that already has a 3rd gen short stroke kit installed. Rifle works in this condition. Goal is to install a Cowboy and Indian 5th Gen kit.

Facts; rifle has been worked on before by someone what I noticed was a welded trigger, and extractor modified with a coil spring.

I have done this on six other rifles.

I have 2 sets of this kit on hand

After installing kit, rounds ejected fine when she mildly flipping the lever.

When running hard this happens

 

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/De...%20puzzle/1.jpg

 

and jams. This is inside at time of jam.

 

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/De...%20puzzle/2.jpg

 

I am asking just to compare suggestions to my troubleshooting steps

 

What would you do? I will reply.

 

Dallas

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I'm no gunsmith and wish I was but too late in life, now I have heard that some short stoke kits come with a new lever also to accompdate the new short stroke kit, like I said I'm no gunsmith, with this 5th generation kit you have does it have the lever also. I know a pard that has a short stroke kit that he installed and was having trouble also, jamming if I remember right, not bad but he couldn't run as fast as he usually does, he was fast with the marlin that he did. If I remember right he did some filing but not sure where at and I'm not sure what kit he bought and if it included a lever, like I said I have heard some kits have a lever also included with the short stroke kit.

 

I'm sure you will get it figured out since you did a good job on the pump rifles, I'm sure Coyote Kid will show me this summer on the work you did to his pump

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

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I'm no gunsmith and wish I was but too late in life, now I have heard that some short stoke kits come with a new lever also to accompdate the new short stroke kit, like I said I'm no gunsmith, with this 5th generation kit you have does it have the lever also. I know a pard that has a short stroke kit that he installed and was having trouble also, jamming if I remember right, not bad but he couldn't run as fast as he usually does, he was fast with the marlin that he did. If I remember right he did some filing but not sure where at and I'm not sure what kit he bought and if it included a lever, like I said I have heard some kits have a lever also included with the short stroke kit.

 

I'm sure you will get it figured out since you did a good job on the pump rifles, I'm sure Coyote Kid will show me this summer on the work you did to his pump

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

The 5th gen kit is made to work with the stock lever.

I am finished with the rifle, I wanted to see if there was a different way to fix it

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Well, I assume those are dummy rounds you are testing with (you are expecting a round with a bullet in it to be ejected, in other words),

 

The cause appears to be that the bolt is retracting too fast, because when the carrier contacts the bottom of the round that is to be ejected, the face of the bolt has to be just about flush with the back surface of the carrier shaft (mortice). Compared to a stock lever, the lever has probably been bent so that the lever pin (running inside the toggle) is too far back, thus it is moving the bolt faster (and actually a little farther back) during the cycle than it should. In fact, the bolt is as far rearward as it's going to go at this point, but the carrier still needs to punch up and eject that round.

 

My fix would have been - put in a stock lever, as fiddling with short strokes when the lever is not stock can be a pain in the rear - a time waster. (You might also be able to fix it by building up the lower surface of the lifter arm, which controls how fast the carrier will rise. But that would be fiddling. And it would make future work on the rifle be a puzzle again.)

 

So how'd you fix it?

 

Good luck, GJ

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Hmmmm...looks like there is a timing issue...carrier is not coming up soon enough.

 

:FlagAm:

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Looking at the first picture it appears the slot in the carrier the bolt pass's through has been widened. If that is the case then the high part of carrier isn't lifting the forward part of the case fast enough to let the lower rearward part of the carrier to get under the rim to push the round out. In other words the carrier needs to stand the round up more so it can be pushed out. This very problem has been going on since the short stroke kits came out. It usually manifest itself as a loose or broken extractor because the carriers are coming up too fast pushing the rims hard into the extractor. You may be able to save that carrier but you will need to slow it's rise some. In other words take some more off the lifter to slow it down. You will be adding more stroke back into it but not much and if it works you won't even know the difference.

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Am I wrong or do I see a part of the carrier hitting the lower extractor?

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Looking at the first picture it appears the slot in the carrier the bolt pass's through has been widened. If that is the case then the high part of carrier isn't lifting the forward part of the case fast enough to let the lower rearward part of the carrier to get under the rim to push the round out. In other words the carrier needs to stand the round up more so it can be pushed out. This very problem has been going on since the short stroke kits came out. It usually manifest itself as a loose or broken extractor because the carriers are coming up too fast pushing the rims hard into the extractor. You may be able to save that carrier but you will need to slow it's rise some. In other words take some more off the lifter to slow it down. You will be adding more stroke back into it but not much and if it works you won't even know the difference.

It is a new carrier and I tried different steps in the timing

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It is a new carrier and I tried different steps in the timing

 

 

You need to take a little more off the pad on the lifter where the lever contacts it. This will slow the carrier enough allow it to come up a bit farther out on the cart. Or slightly lower the lower step on the carrier (this mod is tricky go easy). This will allow the high part of the carrier to lift the front of the cart slightly more before the lower step pushes up on it.

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You need to take a little more off the pad on the lifter where the lever contacts it. This will slow the carrier enough allow it to come up a bit farther out on the cart. Or slightly lower the lower step on the carrier (this mod is tricky go easy). This will allow the high part of the carrier to lift the front of the cart slightly more before the lower step pushes up on it.

As I mentiomed, I had 2 kits so I had two arms to play with. This was compliments of Jim Bowie. We discussed this problem several times .

 

I have nothing but praise for Jim Bowie and his top Quality kit.

 

I took the lifter down little at a time until it was just too much and had to build it back up.

No matter where the timing was when it was levered hard the round seemed to go too deep into the frame and get trapped.

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Howdy,

I noticed it was an Aluminum carrier, do you have a brass carrier to try to see if the problem goes away.

 

KK

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Not an expert on a '73, never owned or shot one, but do have a possible dumb question. In the first top view photo, the bolt face is aft of the carrier mortise rear face thereby causing the case to not be able to eject. In the second top view photo, the bolt face is even with the carrier mortise rear face. Are both these photos with the lever at full stroke? Seems to me that with the bolt face further back into the bolt bore, the case could not eject. Does the bolt normally travel back as far as shown in the first photo at full lever stroke? Inquiring mind would like to be edumicated. Thanks. Nota John

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Not an expert on a '73, never owned or shot one, but do have a possible dumb question. In the first top view photo, the bolt face is aft of the carrier mortise rear face thereby causing the case to not be able to eject. In the second top view photo, the bolt face is even with the carrier mortise rear face. Are both these photos with the lever at full stroke? Seems to me that with the bolt face further back into the bolt bore, the case could not eject. Inquiring mind would like to be edumicated. Thanks. Nota John

Good observation, I came to same conclusion. Here is another piece of the puzzle. Remember I said they ejected good when lever was worked easy.

This all was taking place one day before rifle had to go to our state match, so time was running out. The next photo shows position of the links when the round actually ejected. There is a second picture inserted (a little to the right) of the position the links were in when round jammed.

 

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/De...20puzzle/3c.jpg

 

Dallas

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Looks like the bolt is coming too far back when worked fast probably due to inertia ? Link pins worn out ? Correct pins ? Bent parts ?

Mink..........

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Looks like the bolt is coming too far back when worked fast probably due to inertia ? Link pins worn out ? Correct pins ? Bent parts ?

Mink..........

I replaced the whole bolt and firing pin extension from my 73 (that works perfect) and no change.

 

You are right about bolt coming back too far. This is getting close to what I finally did. Remember rifle is going to State match and backup plan would be to put it back the way it was. That said, you can see I could not do anything to that would effect the original set up.

 

Jim Bowie said he had never seen this, he has seen all the photos that have been posted. I pretty much told him what I was thinking about doing and waited for his reply. I did not want to void any warranty, and wanted to try all suggestions.

 

Dallas

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You have a serious timing issue. I've seen it with kits before. Get it to a 73 smith. The fix is not always the same in every fix. Do yourself a favor and replace the loading gate to. Who ever ground it did a horrible job.

Like I said before someone had worked on the rifle before.

 

I concluded the bolt was going back too far for whatever reason, My solution in this case was to prevent the over travel. I did this by stopping the links at the point in the last photo where the round ejected good. After my tig welding, all was well and rounds were bouncing off the ceiling.

 

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/De...le/DSC_2427.jpg

 

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy37/De...le/DSC_2428.jpg

 

Dallas

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I'm real curious about an extractor modified with a "coil" spring?? But there is a timing issue. The link set in this particular rifle is retracting the Breach Block way too far back into the receiver before the Carrier Block has a chance to eject the round. With the link set fully compressed the Carrier Block is still well down in it's mortice.

Without actually watching the cycle, I can't guess which of possibly several things that effect timing is off.

The last time I used a C & I kit, it still required a C & I Carrier Block Arm. Stock Uberti didn't cut it.

 

Off the subject, I have found Large Bore toggle link rifles run better with 3rd generation short stroke kits as opposed to a Super Short or 5th gen.

 

What fixed it??

 

Coffinmaker

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I'm real curious about an extractor modified with a "coil" spring?? But there is a timing issue. The link set in this particular rifle is retracting the Breach Block way too far back into the receiver before the Carrier Block has a chance to eject the round. With the link set fully compressed the Carrier Block is still well down in it's mortice.

Without actually watching the cycle, I can't guess which of possibly several things that effect timing is off.

The last time I used a C & I kit, it still required a C & I Carrier Block Arm. Stock Uberti didn't cut it.

 

Off the subject, I have found Large Bore toggle link rifles run better with 3rd generation short stroke kits as opposed to a Super Short or 5th gen.

 

What fixed it??

 

Coffinmaker

The kit does come with an arm, I think I was working on my last post when you replied. Take a look at above photos. I ran this by Jim Bowie and he said "go for it" as we tried everything else. I mostly put this up to see if I might have missed something and to help out anyone who might encounter this problem. It was probably a one in a thousand problem Uberti.

 

Dallas

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The kit does come with an arm, I think I was working on my last post when you replied. Take a look at above photos. I ran this by Jim Bowie and he said "go for it" as we tried everythin else. I mostly put this up to see if I might have missed something and to help out anyone who might encounter this problem. It was probably a one in a thousand problem Uberti.

 

Dallas

 

No I've seen this before. With other kits as well. This is kind of a down fall with the Super SS kits.

 

 

Colorado Coffinmaker, Coil sprung extactors have been around since 2002 that I know of. It's the only way I do extractors when done right. I have customers running the same extractor for 7-8 years. With no problems. Including myself. These are heavy use guns too. Not just the one match a month gun. You'll never get that mileage out of a flat spring extractor. I don't care who makes it. I got tired of replacing extractors ever season in my own gun. That is why I started coil springing the extractor

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I'd call Jim Bowie at Cowboys and Indian tomorrow and talk to him for about 5 minutes.

Red

Post #14, post #20, post #24 all refer to Jim Bowie. I talked with him on four different times, send him photos and made sure he was ok with the welding solution. He was nice enough to send out a different set to see if that would help.

 

Dallas

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What would I do? I shoot the toggle links just like Henry or Jennings designed them -- but that's just me.

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Howdy,

So where would one locate these coil spring kits for the extractor.

 

KK

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What would I do? I shoot the toggle links just like Henry or Jennings designed them -- but that's just me.

 

But only after you added a comment about shooting stock guns to a post that has nothing to do with shooting stock guns.....

 

Stan

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What would I do? I shoot the toggle links just like Henry or Jennings designed them -- but that's just me.

 

Seriously...who cares...

 

:blink:

 

But looking at the original picture it sure looks as though the bolt has gone too far back into the receiver.

 

:)

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