Solo_Sam Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I'm looking at getting an R&D conversion cylinder for a .36 1861 Uberti. The Shooter's Handbook says conversion cylinders are allowed "if" they represent a conversion common to the period. The only real-life conversions I've seen are the gated kind. Are the ungated R&D conversions SASS legal? Does anyone have experience with these? Do they work as advertised? Thanks, -Solo Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not one to high jack the post, but I will anyway. I would like to expand to cover the relative merits of the R&D vs Kirst as I am thinking about conversion cylinders for my 58 remmies. Also do not want ones with loading gates as I don't want to grind on the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Crumley Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 SS, As far as I know, they are legal but I'll let the experts chime in on that. From pictures of original conversions I have seen they are close, and I can't see any competitive advantage so I don't know why they would not be legal. As for function, I've been shooting the .45 Colt conversions in my Remington 58s for the last 2 years (the drop-in version; no changes to the revolver), and they've been great. The only issue I've had is one of the firing pins mushroomed to the point where it would stick. I contacted Howell Old West (formerly R&D) and they told me this was normal, due to the pins being deliberately made softer than the hammers. I haven't changed the springs so they are the heavy ones designed to keep the caps on but still they worked for a good 18 months. I ordered the replacement parts and the tool to remove the old one with from Howell and had the part changed out in under 5 minutes. Just to be throrough, Kirst also makes an ungated conversion cylinder. The design is slightly different but the function is about the same. Will you be able to make it to the Cabs shoot on the 15th? If so, you're welcome to take a look at mine and see how it all works. Doc Crumley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Crumley Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Not one to high jack the post, but I will anyway. I would like to expand to cover the relative merits of the R&D vs Kirst as I am thinking about conversion cylinders for my 58 remmies. Also do not want ones with loading gates as I don't want to grind on the guns. Cpt Dan, The biggest differences I know of off the top of my head are that the Kirst are (or were last I looked) 5 shot only, while the Howell Old West/R&D are 6. Next, the Kirst uses a single firing pin with the forward portion of the cylinder rotating and the back plate stationary. The HOW/R&D has 6 pins that are indexed to the individual cylinders. Benefits/issues of both could be argued either way. Doc Crumley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint 976 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The Kirst conversion for the 36 caliber is a 6-shot. The 45 is a 5-shot. The ungated conversions are allowed because not all original period conversions were gated. You can find both gated and ungated conversions in the books on the subject. I have an R&D ungated on an Uberti 1860 Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Howdy Sam, You may already know this, but keep in mind that converting a .36 Cal pistol with a .38 spcl cylinder will result in a .358 bullet going down a .370 (or more) bore. With normal .38 spcl ammo accuracy will be poor as the bullet rattles down the barrel. You can shoot soft hollow based bullets which will expand to fill the bore (more expensive to buy, or cast your own). Or you can line the barrel to .357 (expensive, plus you can't shoot the percussion cylinder in the gun). If you do not already own the percussion gun, for the money might be better off buying a ready-made conversion which will be made out of better steel as well. Although a conversion with the loading lever on it does look cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint 976 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 The easiest bullets to load for a 36 is the 148gr Speer, Remington or Hornady Hollow base wadcutter. Seat the bullet out about 1/16 inch to conform to SASS rules, and it's easier to see that it is a loaded rather than fired cartridge. (SASS doesn't allow fully enclosed bullets). The HBWC will fit in the length of the conversion cylinder. A conical bullet will not fit in the shorter conversion cylinder with a 38 Special case. If you load conical hollow base bullets you will have to use 38 LongColt brass. The Remington HBWC, if you can find them, leads the least, as it's very welll lubed, but requires cleaning the seating die after a few hundred rounds. The Speer is cleaner and doesn't lead badly. The Hornady leads the bore more, I think it's because of the knurled surface instead of grease grooves presenting points of lead to the bore. Howdy Sam,You may already know this, but keep in mind that converting a .36 Cal pistol with a .38 spcl cylinder will result in a .358 bullet going down a .370 (or more) bore. With normal .38 spcl ammo accuracy will be poor as the bullet rattles down the barrel. You can shoot soft hollow based bullets which will expand to fill the bore (more expensive to buy, or cast your own). Or you can line the barrel to .357 (expensive, plus you can't shoot the percussion cylinder in the gun). If you do not already own the percussion gun, for the money might be better off buying a ready-made conversion which will be made out of better steel as well. Although a conversion with the loading lever on it does look cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo_Sam Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Howdy Sam,You may already know this, but keep in mind that converting a .36 Cal pistol with a .38 spcl cylinder will result in a .358 bullet going down a .370 (or more) bore. With normal .38 spcl ammo accuracy will be poor as the bullet rattles down the barrel. You can shoot soft hollow based bullets which will expand to fill the bore (more expensive to buy, or cast your own). Or you can line the barrel to .357 (expensive, plus you can't shoot the percussion cylinder in the gun). If you do not already own the percussion gun, for the money might be better off buying a ready-made conversion which will be made out of better steel as well. Although a conversion with the loading lever on it does look cool All of the websites I've seen recommend .38 LC or .38 Special with hollow base, and finding hollow base wadcutters sounds like a pain so I expect to stick with .38 LC. Everything I've seen says the .38 LC is .36+ caliber which I hope will provide a better fit. My goal is to upgrade my existing 1861 Uberti because I really love the gun but I would like to shoot it more often than BP permits. If I didn't already own one, then I would be buying a ready made conversion. I agree with you that the original loading lever is more beautiful than one with an added ejector. Besides, a KCK, plus ejector, plus carving the ejection port adds up to the price of a brand new Richards-Mason. Thank you all for the feedback, -Solo Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sam, the modern .38LC or .38 Colt is not .36. It is just a shortened .38 Spcl, so it also needs the hollowbase bullets. The old .38 Colt that the original conversions used was a heeled bullet. I'm not sure, but don't think that would chamber in the conversion cylinder, even if you were to make some of that ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I have an R&D cylinder on an Old Army and it works like a champ. I took a look at the Kirst and it seemed to me that to house all their parts into one firing pin type of thing, things had to get really small to do so. Whereas the R&D cylinder was beefy all the way around since there were only two pieces; the cylinder and the firing pin plate. I liked the idea of each chamber having its own firing pin as well. A big suggestion; Do not alter the gun to have the cylinder fit! Only monkey with the cylinder for such purpose. I was doing two guns at the time I ordered mine and the fault lay with Ruger since the R&D cylinders mic'd out identically, however there were a few thousandths off on the guns themselves. But like I stated rather than monkeying with the guns, I lathed off the difference from the breech side of the cylinders and everything fit like clockwork. We're only talking 3 thousandths here so it wasn't much, but enough to keep the cylinder from seating properly. You're going to love your conversion. It makes life so much easier and fun to shoot. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sam Having converted two 51 Navy's if I were to do it again I would go the route that Abilene pointed you towards. If you want a 51 Navy with the loading lever still in place,look here http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversio...%20NameConv.htm By the time you purchase the cylinder and to get the revolver to shoot with decent accuracy get the barrel lined,you will have more in it than if you just bought a ready made conversion. I thought I would use the percussion cylinders in them,hasn't happened yet. I just grab a pair that are still in their percussion state,JMO. Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansas City Jack #9243 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I'v been shooting R&D conversion cylinders in my .45 for about 6 years, first I had a pair of Pieta's and later got a pair of Uberti's. I have had good luck with them all. I do put the C&B back in for a Plainsman Event a couple of times a year. With the exception of having six firing pins they are almost exact copies of the original. I have a 1869 Remington and it has a factory conversion and was made for rim fire. Have fun shooting your conversions I know that I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Yes to all the .36 converted to .38 comments. You can do it either way, either is legal, and yes, yer gonna end up shooting a .357 bullet out of a .375 bore unless ya get em lined. Walt Kirst has talked about offering a line of appropriate old timey HB bullets for these guns, but as of now the 148 HD wadcutter is probabbly the easiest method to make em shoot half decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo_Sam Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Understood. I'll make sure I get the HB specials. Thank you everyone, -Solo Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Mesa, SASS #63240 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Understood. I'll make sure I get the HB specials. Thank you everyone, -Solo Sam Sam, Not that this is your question, but I own both for my ROAs. I would definitely get the Kirst. The firing pins in the R&D peen over and stick over time. Also hard to find replacement pins. Just my experience. Blue Mesa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Hannigan, SASS#26044 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I've been using both a Kirk and R&D conversion in my pistols for years and this is the first I've ever heard that the R&D my be illegal. never been called on it. Dutch Hannigan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I've been using both a Kirk and R&D conversion in my pistols for years and this is the first I've ever heard that the R&D my be illegal. never been called on it. Dutch Hannigan nether one is illegal Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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