Captain Hebe Missing Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Being new to the side match game i am trying to decide which long range single shot rifle to choose. I would like to know which one of these three (38-55, 45-70, and 405win) would be a good fit. then after you choose the caliber what type? (Quigley, rolling block, high wall, ect) Please help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Competitively speaking, the High wall action is the fastest of the three actions, as it cocks the hammer when the lever is worked. Otherwise pick what action you like or best represents the time period you are trying to recreate. Caliber-wise, 45-70 is the most readily available cartridge/component, followed by 38-55, and 405 Win the most difficult and expensive to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Shooting BP, I would pick the .45-70 OH-BTW, if your only going to shoot SASS "Long Range" side matches then the .38-55 would work(SASS "long Range" is NOT that long) Cheers, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I don't believe the 405 Winchester would be a legal caliber, as it wasn't introduced until 1904. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Having worked with the 45-70 and 38-55, I've found that the 45-70 is MUCH easier to develop loads for than the 38-55. And, the 45-70 cares little about the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hebe Missing Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 All i intend on doing is SASS long range and my local range only has a 300yd bay. If the 45-70 is the easiest i like that. where is a good place to find a starter rifle or is like like other things just jump up to your second purchase first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hey Lump Grits, Sass Long Range not long! For the most part I agree with you, but next Summer, grab your LR Rifle and drive up to Farmington, NM to the Tres River Banditos LR shoot. They have a White Buffalo at 800 yards; that will test you pretty good. Good bunch of folks there too. Hoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 I like the 38-55 cal. alot and use a Marlin for lever action side matches and hunting, however I've seen more than a couple times where hits were called misses cause the counters could not hear a hit with strong winds blowing. Wonderful caliber,but might need to spend some time working up loads, that's fun too. Single shot for the price around $800.00 for a Uberti Hiwall 45-70 works well and had good luck with blackpowder and smokeless loads mostly with 405 gr. home cast bullets and even longer ranges(700yrds.) with 535 gr. bullets. Lee Gunsmithing has some reasonable priced long range buffalo sites if needing a tang site also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 The H&R Buffalo Classic is very affordable, very accurate & easy to find. Not as sexy as an 1874 Sharps though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hebe Missing Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hoss, I would love to work my way up to that but coming from shooting bolt guns out to 1500 m i know the time it takes to set up and practice to make the bullet go exactly where you want it. for some reason after about 500 m they begin to do funny things. I have looked at Texas Jacks. they seem reasonable. Do all models take smokeless? Like stepnmud i hunt with a 45 colt and 45-70 lever gun so i would want a little more punch when i find that 1000 lb pig. (100 just told the story 10 times ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hey Lump Grits, Sass Long Range not long! For the most part I agree with you, but next Summer, grab your LR Rifle and drive up to Farmington, NM to the Tres River Banditos LR shoot. They have a White Buffalo at 800 yards; that will test you pretty good. Good bunch of folks there too. Hoss When? Please PM me with info and links. THX! I plan to be back in Forsyth, Mt. in June for the Quigley shoot. Cheers, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 45-70 is probably your best choice. Plenty of load data, ammo and components available. A most versatile round. For an inexpensive 45-70 rifle, the H&R Buffalo Classic can be had for around $400, give or take a few. I used to have one and after doing some tune-up work on it, it wasn't too bad. Had to tweak the barrel a bit, and do some fitting on the locking mechanism to keep it from popping open on firing. Moving up, the TriStar '74 Sharps is around $800 and is a better rifle than the H&R. Been using one for a few years now, and it's a proper tack-driver. There are other brands of Sharps replicas, with prices going up to around $4,000. No experience with the High Wall or Rolling Block, so can't comment on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Hoss, I would love to work my way up to that but coming from shooting bolt guns out to 1500 m i know the time it takes to set up and practice to make the bullet go exactly where you want it. for some reason after about 500 m they begin to do funny things. I have looked at Texas Jacks. they seem reasonable. Do all models take smokeless? Like stepnmud i hunt with a 45 colt and 45-70 lever gun so i would want a little more punch when i find that 1000 lb pig. (100 just told the story 10 times ) These guns a build for BP and that's all I shoot in them. They shoot better with BP than smokeless, BTW The BEST 1874 Sharps(IMNSHO)are the ones from Shiloh Sharps in Big Timber, Mt. Cry one time and buy the best and you will NEVER look back. I shoot a Harford 34" hvy bbl in .45-70 and a #1 30" hvy bbl in .45-90. Both of my Shilohs have no problems hitting the 800+ yard Buffalo at the Quigley shoot in Forsyth, Mt. Check out the Shiloh Forums, LOTS of good info. there. Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepnmud#33546 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 These guns a build for BP and that's all I shoot in them. They shoot better with BP than smokeless, BTW The BEST 1874 Sharps(IMNSHO)are the ones from Shiloh Sharps in Big Timber, Mt. Cry one time and buy the best and you will NEVER look back. I shoot a Harford 34" hvy bbl in .45-70 and a #1 30" hvy bbl in .45-90. Both of my Shilohs have no problems hitting the 800+ yard Buffalo at the Quigley shoot in Forsyth, Mt. Check out the Shiloh Forums, LOTS of good info. there. Respectfully, LG I like Lumpy's choice's and have a Shiloh '74 order in limbo at the present time , except for being 45-100 cal. Hartford 34" heavy barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Pan Dan Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 You may want to consider one other caliber, 40/65. I have competed with all the other calibers, except the 405, and am now mostly using my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps in 40/65. You will find that the caliber is very accurate, not finicky about loads, more powerful than the 38/55, but much less recoil than the 45/70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Logan #12252 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 40-65 browning bpcr will do more at long ranges than 38-55 or 45-70.. but thats just my opinion, I have a 32-40, 38-55 that I shoot more just because we only shoot 200 yd off hand, but any thing longer the 40-65 would be used, with a 410 spire point hard lead pill. at 200 yds it shoots under 1 moa or just less than 2 inches.. its a tad heavy for off hand shoots, but I'm over 71 years young.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Have seen allot of steel left standing("silly-wet")after being hit with a .40-65 that a 500grn+ .45 caliber bullet sends flying. Respectfully, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'll go along with those who suggest 45-70 as the first gun in your long range battery. Lots of good choices for rifles, loading goodies are easy to come by and there is lots of info out there on care and feeding. The Pedersolis are real common in this area for long range shooting but that said you can find trapdoors in lots of gunshops as well. I've had buff classics, and marlin lever guns, in both 38-55 and 45-70 and think the BC 45-70 is a little light compared to a sharps repro and nowhere near as comfortable to shoot even with 500+ grain bullets. Shooting 50-60 rounds ouf of the Sharps from the bench isnt a problem where the lighter rifles mightbe. The 38-55 is a sweet cartridge but it just doesnt give the same thump down range the 45-70 does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Have seen allot of steel left standing("silly-wet")after being hit with a .40-65 that a 500grn+ .45 caliber bullet sends flying. Respectfully, LG Sass long range events are a HIT the target, not a Knockdown event. What ever cal. that is accurate enough to do the job with and he can shoot comfortably should do it. I shoot Remington rolling blocks in 45-70...40-50 sharps and 7mm. The targets go CLANG. Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Here is my take on the actions. I avoided a sharps action because I heard that you have to be particular about manually cocking the hammer before working the lever. Not a big deal for some, but it is a point I did not care for. I did have a Pedersoli Rolling Block, and I do have a Uberti High Wall. The High Wall action is superior to the Rolling Block for one big reason... as (not if) your chamber gets coated with soot from black powder, the Rolling Block will get tougher and tougher to close. I had occaisions where I could not close the action in as few as 30 rounds. With a High Wall, you have a lever to use as leverage and it works really well for pushing in the rounds. My two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you decide on the 38-55, you might want to consider the Low-wall. I think you'd find the hammer access and chambering somewhat handier... Hi-Wall and Lo-Wall Visual Comparison Uberti Lo-Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancho Peacemaker Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 As for caliber: 45-70 will suit you well. You can load up for hunting or LONG distance or down for mid range shoots As for Action: I have a Browning/Miroku BPCR Hi-Wall: It's built like a tank and can handle VERY stout smokeless loads. It can shoot better than my ability. I have a Pedersoli Sharps Carbine: Not as strong an action as the BPCR Hi Wall, but very well balanced for off hand shooting. Now for my favorite "Big" rifle: Browning/Miroku 1886. I think the '86 gets overlooked alot, but man do I like mine. It is smooth shooting and handles stout smokeless loads. It is a handy rifle out to 300 yards. Anything beyond that, needs the long barrel Hi-Wall. Of note, the Browning/Miroku rifles are all out of production for many years. You can get deals on them on Gunbroker. Miroku is still producing the '86 and the Hi-Wall under the Winchester brand. The actions are identical. I believe the wood on the older Browning/Miroku's is nicer. Plus, the Browning '86 don't have that silly lawyer tang safety. Pancho (I realize the '86 is not a single shot, as the original question asked, but I like mine so much, I had to mention it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 They have a White Buffalo at 800 yards; that will test you pretty good. Hoss - Grits, if you ever come to Jersey, give me a call. Homer @ 1000 yds at the Ridgway RC in PA is smaller than the standard 1000yd target of 72 x 72. He is 48 x 82 and around 11:00AM, goes into the shadows with only the back half of him showing http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/M...07/PDRM2768.jpg Even manage center hits too ... http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/M...09/IMGP0224.jpg I've whacked him with a 45-70 HiWall and Sharps, 45-90 Sharps, 50-70 Rolling Block with open original sights and even after many sighters put a 38-55 on him for giggles. This Spring, he is going to be tested with my 43 Spanish RB One day, a friend put 10 consecutive hits on Homer in about a 20" group using his 40-65 HiWall. So, for CAS LR, pick the caliber that you favor cause there is no doubt one can hit these targets with the proper recipe, a good set of eyes and a steady squeeze on the trigger. Be sure to put a bubble level on the rifle too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Unfortunately, SASS long range side matches are rarely what I would call long range. I've seen many under 100 yards and anything over 200 is unusual. I looked up your home club and see that you are in Oklahoma so you may have more longer range side match opportunities, I note that for now you are just looking for a rifle for SASS side matches. Since most side matches are relatively short range and are usually just hit/miss a generous size target with 5-10 shots on the clock, speed of operation is very important as long as the rifle has adequate accuracy. A lot of matches are won by people shooting H&R Toppers, oops, I mean the Buffalo Classic or Handi-Rifle, rather than what I consider to be more traditional guns. I have five Shiloh Sharps rifles but I rarely shoot SASS long range side matches. If I ever shoot an H&R, I'll wear a bag over my head. The .45/70 is a very versatile round with brass, dies and components available everywhere. It is also a very easy caliber to reload. The .38-55 would be a good choice for shorter ranges and lighter rifles, but handling the round and hitting the chamber when reloading favors the .45/70-that speed thing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus Brady Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I've got an 1886 in 45-90, a Sharps in 45-70, a roller in 45-70 and an 1885 in 405. I shoot BP subs in all of them. Dimensionally, the the 405 is almost identical to the 40-75 Sharps Straight. I usually refer to the 1885 by that nomenclature. I'm still working out loads for it, so I can't give any advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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