Kahl Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Hi , I'm new to the site . I have my great-great-grandfathers 1873 Winchester 44-40 I've had it checked out by a gun smith and all is still like new. So far i've put about 100 rounds thru it ( lead , flat nose) Shoots great!! I just want your professional opinions on how much is too much shooting with it to keep from any damage? And if i start reloading it, what's the best data I should use? Any tips on brand powder or even lead to use? ANY ADVICE IS WELCOME, I don't want to hurt the rifle. I'm not worried about resale value, cause it's staying in the family! I just wanna keep it original quality. Here's the link to the pic. 1873 Win, .44-40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Lucre, 55674L Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Are ya shooting BP thru it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Shooting the gun will not hurt it as long as you don't try to shoot real hot loads. A lot of pards will probably chime in about shooting blackpowder in your rifle. That's great, if you know what you are doing. I take it you don't have a lot of experience yet, so, to keep things simple, stick with smokeless for now. Get a reloading manual that list loads for 44-40. Look at the info that shows what velocity to expect with a given load. Pick one on the low side. Powder is up to you, Trail Boss is good for light loads as it fills the case even with a small charge. Just keep it clean and oiled. Don't shoot heavy loads. It will last longer than you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Thnx, I only plan to shoot lead, and low velocity. I have been told by 1 out of 12 people I asked, to shoot Black powder only, everyone else said smokeless is ok. Is there a better bullet than lead that's damage safe in the 44-40? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang, SASS #53480 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Appropriate loads of smokeless is Ok . . . I personally shoot only black in my original '73 Winchester. Lead bullets is what it is made for. Flat nose bullets are what is appropriate in a tube magazine rifle. You might want to visit the Whichester Collectors Forum. I go there regularly. Good shootin', . . . . My Original '73 here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I have my great-great-grandfathers 1873 Winchester 44-40I've had it checked out by a gun smith and all is still like new. how much is too much shooting with it to keep from any damage? And if i start reloading it, what's the best data I should use? Any tips on brand powder or even lead to use? I just wanna keep it original quality. Shooting a lot and keeping a gun in original condition are opposite goals. Most of these guns that have not been shot for CAS competition probably have not had more than 500 rounds (10 boxes of factory ammunition) through them in 125 years. Your ability to care for a gun, use good disassembly techniques and cleaning methods with the PROPER screwdrivers and cleaning equipment, a good carrying case, and proper care when you are shooting (like, don't hand the gun to Bubba to shoot when you know he regularly drops his own head even though he's trying hard to hold onto it) all contribute to keeping the gun in fine shape. Some trap guns I've seen and worked with have had hundred thousands of rounds through them, and still look close to new. They never touch the ground or a hard table, they get wiped down with a silicone cloth when they are handled, and they get cleaned often. They get the attention of a GOOD gunsmith when there is any problem. But, parts for an original '73 are harder to find, sometimes have to be made from scratch, and will look good but won't be "original". What that means to you YOU have to figure out. There is no MAGIC NUMBER of rounds you can shoot without damaging anything on the gun. Some folks can't shoot a box of ammo without busting something. If you shoot factory new or factory equivalent reloads (what we on here will call SAAMI-specification ammo) with lead bullets, clean regularly, follow other good gun handling and care techniques, you could easily shoot a few thousand rounds a year without visible wear. The loading data you should use is PUBLISHED data in high quality loading manuals. Loads you find on the Internet, or from your Uncle Ned, may or may not allow you to make SAAMI level ammunition. There are many powders that are suitable for loading 44-40. There are even more that are not suitable. Which powder manufacturer is not all that important - what is important is the "speed" of the powder and it's suitability to make good loads for the 44-40 cartridge. Good quality loading manuals (one of the best is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition, if you can find it) will have lead bullet loads for 44-40 that will be within SAAMI pressure levels. Combine that with proper loading equipment and loading techniques (that would be material for about another 20 dissertations) and you would be on the way to making fine ammo to use. A 200 grain cast lead bullet from a major casting company, sized at .428 inch, would be a great slug to use. Round Nose Flat Point bullets are the typical shape that would work best. The actual caster would not make a lot of difference. All will be safe and gentle to your rifle. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Howdy I will second everything Garrison Joe said. Particularly that you can safely shoot Smokeless loads in it that are loaded to a modest level. There are plenty of loads for 44-40 these days in the published manuals, partially because of renewed interest in the caliber generated by CAS shooters. I would be glad to share my 44-40 load with you that I regularly put through an old Marlin and an old '92. The powder I use is Unique. I agree, a 200 grain Lead Round Nosed Flat Point bullet will probably be best. If the gun already has some dings and pits on it, and you are reasonably careful how you treat it around the loading and unloading tables, it will be fine. How is the bore? A lot of these older guns have pitted bores, but as long as the rifling is still strong they are usually still accurate. Standard groove diameter for 44-40 in the 19th Century was .427, however this was known to vary a great deal, as much as .425-.430. Slugging the bore will tell you a great deal and is not that hard to do. Ask if you need instructions. Slugging will also tell you if the bore has been eroded more near the chamber, which was common with older guns shot with Black Powder and corrosive primers that were not always cleaned promptly. Again, erosion near the chamber does not necessarily mean the gun will not shoot well. Both of my old 44-40s slug out to .427 and have always shot .427 and .428 bullets well. They both have pitted bores and some erosion near the chamber. Black Powder is a slightly different story. Pitted old bores tend to hold onto BP fouling more tenaciously than a clean bore, so a little bit more elbow grease may be needed in cleaning. But it is not required to remove every last molecule of fouling from the pits, a light coating of Ballistol in the bore will prevent any left over fouling from causing rust. For shooting Black Powder, the best bullet I have found is the Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullet lubed with SPG. These are available from a few sources here on the Wire. One of the beauties of the 44-40 round is that the thin brass at the case mouth makes it expand to seal the chamber very well at moderate pressure. That means that almost all the fouling stays in the bore and very little gets into the action, making the job of cleaning the gun much simpler than with some other calibers. The reverse side is that the thin brass means reloading the cartridge can be a little bit fussy, so that damaging the thin brass and getting good crimps can require a little bit of extra care. Again, not unobtainable, but you may not be cranking out 5 zillion rounds an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I've been shooting an original 73 in 44-40 for the past 5 years, I only shoot one or two matches a month. The only problem's I've had were a worn extractor that I had Coyote Cap repair for me. It does get a lot of style points. It was made to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Howdy, Pard, Just keep your loads near the middle range of those loads recommended as suitable for the Winchester '73. You should check the groove diameter of the barrel by slugging it with a SOFT lead slug. Yes, the nominal diameter of the .44-40 was .427." But I've had a '73 rifle that I wished I could shoot in CAS matches. But the groove diameter of the barrel slugged out at .434"! No, it was NOT worn. It would shoot jacketed .429" bullets fairly accurately (not very many, just enough to check it out). But even hard-cast .430" bullets would "strip", and it shot all over the place. The answer would have been to use soft, hollow-base bullets behind BP or BP substitute that would expand into the rifling. My guess...it was probably the first barrel rifled with a new cutter in the rifling machine. I could have had it relined, but bought a Navy Arms M1860 Military Henry rifle instead. Happy New Year! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Haller Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Howdy, Honestly, given the family heirloom importance of the rifle, I would not use it in an unimportant (in the grand scheme) CAS match. Why put wear and tear on something irreplaceable, when a modern made (with modern quality steel) Italian copy can be easily had, (and beat up with impunity, and it WILL get beat up if used regularly in CAS matches.). If you do decide to use it, nonetheless, I don't see anybody asking a really important question regarding using smokeless or black powder; namely, what year was the rifle made? 1873s were made from 1873 in to the 1920s. I suspect Winchester went from iron to steel on them in the late 1890s (at least that's when they did for their 1886s). I would not use anything but BP in the earlier iron frames, and then light loads at that. Even with rifles made toward the end of the run, I would stay with very light smokeless loads, if not still black powder. As for making smokeless loads to copy old black powder ones, yes loads in smokeless can be made to mimic black powder, as concerns top foot pounds of energy created and velocity, but they will NOT mimic the energy generated over time curve of black powder. It's not just the top end of energy generated that can destroy a firearm, but also the rate at which that energy is generated. Black powder does this MUCH slower than smokeless powder. (This is one of the reasons black powder firearms tended to be very long barreled; if you wanted to get the most out of a given black powder charge, you needed sufficient barrel time for it to fully burn.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams 3674 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Just to add a bit to what GJ and DWJ wrote. Shooting the originals is fun, and yes, they were made to shoot. However, they were NOT made to do what we do with our rifles in CAS. As GJ noted, most have never seen 500 rounds in 125 years, and those that saw significantly more are often badly worn - not from the shooting, but from just cycling the action. The original 1873 was built with heavy springs, and those heavy springs promote wear and stress, particularly where the firing pin runs through the back of the frame. The 1873 was made with an iron frame until 1880, and used what parts came to hand even after the change to steel. If you plan on shooting your original for cas on a regular basis, carefully lighten up the main spring. Yep, kinda like we do with the Uberti version! The above advise is offered to you for free. It cost me a lot more for the education! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 People often overstate the condition of antiques. However, if it is genuinely "like new" it is too valuable to shoot as any shooting will degrade the condition. If it's not genuinely "like new" then as others have noted moderate shooting won't hurt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 To me it would be very simple. Don't shoot it at CAS. Shoot it, clean it, hang it up. Get a Rossi or a Uberti. There are many of us Non-competitive types very happy with Marlins and 92's as well........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Howdy Again It is fairly simple to determine the age of your '73 if you post the serial number here. You don't have to post the entire number, post the first digits and substitute Xs for the last two digits so you won't post the exact SN. My book on Winchesters states that the '73 went from an iron frame to a steel frame in 1884. Even before that time, I would not be reluctant to shoot mild Smokeless loads in it. With revolvers, like the Colt SAA which was not factory warrantied for Smokeless until 1900, the issue is the very thin chamber walls. That is not an issue with a rifle like the '73. The chamber walls are plenty thick to take the pressure of a mild Smokeless cartridge. As far as the frame and toggle links are concerned, I would not worry about them either as long as they are in good shape and the links lock the bolt up properly. Again, staying to mild Smokeless loads. If the gun was made after 1884 I would worry about it less, again, as long as everything is in good shape. Regarding shooting it in matches, it depends on how you are going to treat it. If you expect to treat it as a race gun and shoot the dickens out of it as fast as possible, you would perhaps be better off with a modern Italian replica. If you want to shoot it with a little bit of respect for its age, don't rack the lever at 100 mph, and treat it gently at the loading and unloading table, then by all means shoot it at matches. I sure would. I have a Marlin and a Winchester 1892, they are each over 100 years old, and although I don't shoot them at every match, I do shoot them when the spirit moves me. I know other shooters who feel the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Look down your bore and then use a piece of lead such as a egg shape fishing sinker or a .430 bullet and see what your bore is for sure. Many of the first models left the factory with barrels that were .424-.425 They finally made all of them .427 but not in the early guns. If the gun is even close to being as good as you say it is then i would not shoot it in CAS. You will shoot more rounds through your rifle in one year than most owners do in 20 years of ownership. You could also blow the gun if you use the wrong powder in a early model gun. The first rifles were made to shoot Black Powder Only! I would also have some one who is certified to give you a HONEST Value. If as you described it could be worth thousands of dollars. Why take the chance until you are sure of what you are risking. It is easy for anyone on this forum to tell you, Heck yes load it up and go shoot it. If it blows up they are not a dime poorer nor have they lost a family possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I have original Winnies in '73, '87, '92 and '97 models. They are all shooters with no more than 50% of the original finish. The .73 (.38) and '92 (.32) are shot with RedDot loads and medium hard lead bullets (Brinell 12). I use the '92 at the long-range side matches. The '73 comes with me several times a year to monthly matches. I am happy to shoot in in a single stage just to enjoy it as a bit of true history. They are not family hierlooms nor safe queens. Your situation differs in two aspects: - You need to know the actual value of your specific gun from a knowledgeable source. A small difference in condition can make significant differences in collectable value. Also, the $1 paid in 1880 for an extra inch of barrel or the $5 paid for the pistol-grip are huge differences in value today. - This rifle is part of your family history. My suggestion would be to shoot the rifle in a limited manner with soft smokeless loads and get quality photos of your in your cowboy duds with this rifle. Excessive cleaning can stress a rifle with overuse of screwdrivers ad cleanig rods. You can pick up an original shooter for $1500 or a Uberti for slightly less. You cannot replace this specific rifle and its place in your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 I thank you all for your input . And to answer a few questions from above... It's SN indicates a 1885 year make, I say like new because the bore is almost mirror Quality and the rifleing is sharp. The stock and front grip are clean with little markings and Good color with a few chips on the ends of the front grips at the barrel edge. I had the trigger Spring replaced with original parts. I have shot 1 and 1/2 boxes of the winchester cowboy Ammo , factory spec to sass regulation, or so the box says on the back. I've been told it could bring 1700.00 to 2300.00 if sold to a collector. I just need the 3 pc cleaning rods and a site riser <? ( if that's what it's called ) I don't think I'll be reloading this ammo, I now have a better respect for it's condition and will only shoot for limited demonstration. Again, I thank you all for your words of wisdom, and have taken it well. I have some good pics to post, I'll get them up soon, I posted a link to pic in the first post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 I updated the First link with a few pictures of that rifle.. If anyone can see anything I ( a novice) have missed PLEASE let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 That is no where near "like new." Looks like a nice basic gray gun. Shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 That is no where near "like new." Looks like a nice basic gray gun. Shoot it. Thank you, I know it looks old and grungy, I've seen the same rifle many times on this site and the others LOOK new.. I wanted some one with knowlege to rate it. I can only go by what a local Gun smith said... I did'nt understand why some locals said DON'T SHOOT IT.. when it looks this plain and aged. Any tips on how to restore the look of the metal or would that ruin any value it still has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Value is very subjective when the item has family history. You are simply the custodian of the gun, within your family, during the time frame of your life. If such an heirloom had been passed down into my hands, through generations, I would definitely preserve it at its present state for the families next generation. In my opinion we in SASS will be looked down on at some point, in the not to distant future, for our lack of respect for the old firearms we have removed from the finite pool of historical firearms. A destroyed Uberti can be replaced with the next factory run but a Winchester or Colt that saw and survived the 1800s can not be replaced when it is gone and our grandchildren will be the poorer for our lack of responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Any tips on how to restore the look of the metal or would that ruin any value it still has? Howdy Removing the patina of age and attempting to restore the finish of any old firearm will automatically reduce its value. I have bought quite a few nice old Winchesters that have been made affordable because they have been refinished. My advice is as I have already said. Treat it carefully, but go ahead and shoot it. It wouldn't hurt to follow up by slugging the bore as I stated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 thanks Driftwood, I agree. I will keep it original, and safe. I'll fire it now and then just for nostalgia. I'm wondering now if i should even try to reload to SASS specs (or even safer levels of powder) or buy factory cowboy rounds. I can't convey the appreciatation for all the great advise, I'm not a SASS member but I know a few, and you guys still took time to help a new guy in the cowboy world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I'm wondering now if i should even try to reload to SASS specs (or even safer levels of powder) or buy factory cowboy rounds. Howdy Again Most loading books keep their loads to what is called SAAMI spec. SAAMI stands for Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute. SAAMI is a loose confederation of American firearms and ammunition manufacturers. SAAMI sets standards for various things, among them are the pressure levels that ammunition should be manufactured to. Because there are still many old guns just like yours in existence, SAAMI keeps the maximum recommended pressure for the 44-40 cartridge quite low. That way, ammo which meets SAAMI spec will be safe to fire in old guns like yours. You did not say what brand of ammo you have already fired through your '73, but it most likely adheres to SAAMI spec. When you look up ammo recipes in a published manual, there will be a range of powder weights suggested for any particular weight of bullet. There will be a minimum and a Maximum load. Those Maximum loads will be the SAAMI spec Max for pressure. Anywhere you load under the Max, as long as you stay above the minimum, will be safe to shoot in your '73. If you stay to the midpoint of the range, all will be well. There are no official SASS specs nor SAAMI specs for Cowboy ammo. When you buy ammo that is specifically labeled Cowboy ammo, it will have been formulated by the manufacturer for light recoil and mild velocity. Pressure will also probably be lower than SAAMI Max pressure too. But there are no official specs governing this it is up to the individual ammo manufacturer to develop their loads responsibly. Some manuals will also give recipes for Cowboy ammo. These too will be formulated for light recoil and mild velocity although once again, there are no official guidelines. What I am trying to say is, almost any commercially loaded ammo you find on the shelf will be OK for your rifle. If it says Cowboy on it, it will be OK too, and a little bit lower in pressure, so therefor even better for your '73. If you load your own ammo, look for recipes that specify they are for Cowboy loads and you will still be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahl Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 Sounds great, thanks. Ive been shooting the Winchester brown box "cowboy" loads They shoot great , so if I reload I'll be going by the specs on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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