Tom Bullweed Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I enjoy that the main match shooting strengthens my use of single-action and lever action arms. I am an average shooter but feel that four years of shooting CAS has made me realize that I can defend hearth and home with my Vaqueros or Winchesters if necessary. CAS really pushes these guns to their limits and helps to develop our skills. My concern is that Wild Bunch does the opposite. I have shot 1911's in other disciplines for several years and have been through several classes that taught the tactical use of semi-auto pistols. The Wild Bunch rules water the use of the 1911 down to a point of concern. Starting from condition three (mag in, empty chamber), shooting the gun until empty, five rounds/mag and no use of tactical reloads are all against the norms of using a semi-auto for personal defense. The result could be the poor execution or decision-making of a cowboy defending themselves with a semi-auto related directly to current Wild Bunch rules. I appreaciate the incorporation of the world's greatest personal defense weapon into SASS, but I want to challenge the TG's and Wild Bunch to make us better shooters of the 1911's in the same manner as they have done with our single-actions and lever guns. I do not believe that SASS is the place to teach tactical use of the 1911, but I know that I cannot shoot WB and then feel like I can use the 1911 to its fullest advantages in a self-defense situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDisaster # 45431 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 It is a game anyone that would let WB Rules influence their defensive pistol skills/ tactics should probably not be carrying a pistol for defense do to lack of good judgement. IMHO of course. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Howdy, I would suggest posting your concern on the WBAS forum. IIRC, the reasoning behind disallowing a "tactical reload" (i.e. mag change with a round in the chamber under a cocked hammer) has been addressed by the WB Rules Committee as a safety issue. FWIW - The Territorial Governors are not involved in the Wild Bunch rules development. Rgds, PWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Here we go, let's see, why cary 5 rounds in the magazine designed to hold 7? Tatical reloads, let's do away with the old fashioned holsters, I've heard all those questions asked on various "Wild Bunch" forums/threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 If you are looking towards SASS or Wild Bunch shooting for tactical applications and training - you are looking in the wrong spot. We play a shooting game - there is strategy, there are skillsets required and there are methods available to improve. But these strategies, skillsets and methods will serve only to make you a better SASS or Wild Bunch shooter. IDPA focuses on more real world carry and use of firearms in a competitive format. Gunsite - Front Sight - Thunder Ranch, and others all offer fantastic training in the use of a firearm for self defense and in real world scenarios. While I love cowboy action shooting - It is not defensive firearms training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfego, SASS #50493 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 SASS may not be the place to practice defensive shooting skills but some of the practices/safety rules may lead to bad habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I agree with the safety concerns, as applies to SASS. We tend to turn new shooters loose pretty fast and our safety rules takes this into consideration. The only time I ever remember any requirement of proficiency being required was in the early Gunfighter Category and I think new shooters walking around 'cocked and locked' is just as scary as a new shooter trying to shoot his first time using two hands before he can use one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I agree with the safety concerns, as applies to SASS. We tend to turn new shooters loose pretty fast and our safety rules takes this into consideration. The only time I ever remember any requirement of proficiency being required was in the early Gunfighter Category and I think new shooters walking around 'cocked and locked' is just as scary as a new shooter trying to shoot his first time using two hands before he can use one! Ahhhh Haaa!! The ole' tactical concern eh?? Howdy Bob, I agree SASS CAS is often an introduction to firearms, or competitive shooting for many a new shooter. The same goes for WB....I've never shot or owned a 1911 untill WB came along, there are a bunch more out there in the same boat. It has lead us to shooting some IDPA matches, that's the place for tactical practical, WB is a totally different game/sport. Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Hi Tom, The TGs have no say in WB Rules. Tex, Hipshot, Coyote Calhoun take recommendations from a Committee and have final say on what goes there. They do not seem to be open to input by outsiders. In fact several threads have disappeared when posts brought up issues with the current WB Rules. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I like my/our 1911 in condition one. I like CT grips. That and uniform reasons keep me/us out of WB. Never saw a vintage cowboy with a 1911 outside of the movies, esp. 1865. of course YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I enjoy that the main match shooting strengthens my use of single-action and lever action arms. I am an average shooter but feel that four years of shooting CAS has made me realize that I can defend hearth and home with my Vaqueros or Winchesters if necessary. CAS really pushes these guns to their limits and helps to develop our skills. My concern is that Wild Bunch does the opposite. I have shot 1911's in other disciplines for several years and have been through several classes that taught the tactical use of semi-auto pistols. The Wild Bunch rules water the use of the 1911 down to a point of concern. Starting from condition three (mag in, empty chamber), shooting the gun until empty, five rounds/mag and no use of tactical reloads are all against the norms of using a semi-auto for personal defense. The result could be the poor execution or decision-making of a cowboy defending themselves with a semi-auto related directly to current Wild Bunch rules. I appreaciate the incorporation of the world's greatest personal defense weapon into SASS, but I want to challenge the TG's and Wild Bunch to make us better shooters of the 1911's in the same manner as they have done with our single-actions and lever guns. I do not believe that SASS is the place to teach tactical use of the 1911, but I know that I cannot shoot WB and then feel like I can use the 1911 to its fullest advantages in a self-defense situation. Are you similarly concerned that if you have to use your Vaquero or Winchester for home defense you will be hampered by the fact that you can only move one foot with a cocked gun? And pity the poor Duelist shooter in a self defense setting! I think CAS matches and having to defend oneself are so dissimilar that what you do in a match will not dilute nor taint SD skills should the need ever arise. And as others have said, I don't want the lesser skilled shooters doing tactical reloads or starting cocked and locked. I get the willies watching some shooters lack of muzzle control on reloads with empty guns with the slides locked back, we don't need them doing tactical reloads. One of the charms of CAS is that it involves a lot of non-gun type people, but that is also one of the reasons for what seem to many to be too many, or overly restrictive, safety rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. P. Cobb Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Nevermind What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 If you are looking towards SASS or Wild Bunch shooting for tactical applications and training - you are looking in the wrong spot. We play a shooting game - there is strategy, there are skillsets required and there are methods available to improve. But these strategies, skillsets and methods will serve only to make you a better SASS or Wild Bunch shooter. IDPA focuses on more real world carry and use of firearms in a competitive format. Gunsite - Front Sight - Thunder Ranch, and others all offer fantastic training in the use of a firearm for self defense and in real world scenarios. While I love cowboy action shooting - It is not defensive firearms training. yikes I agree to agree with Creeker Happy New yearS' folks he is correct I am waCHting a video right now, a christmas gift from chantelley lace all bout defensive / OFFENSIVE shooting to save yer ass when needed it aint competition not at ALL how-ever it (CAS) CAN build motor skills, and confi-dence that COULD SAVE LIFES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairshake Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 It seems that I remember reading some where that SASS was not meant to teach anyone how to shoot. It is a game that is played by those who have had previous firearms training. Now having said that one of the clubs that I belong to had cowboy and WB shooters mixed and shooting on the same posses. Being a former Police Firearms Instructor that was my most nervous day of SASS shooting. I saw several members that had handling problems and many safety violations. There were shooters who had failure to fire because of the safety in the on position. There were several who failed to realize that each time a semi-auto fires it has one bullet exit the barrel, ejects that case and chambers another round. One shooter with the muzzle passing several people kept saying they were missing a round. They were shooting 4 and dropping the mag with one in the chamber. Maybe SASS should have a orientation with the guns used just as we do with new shooters. WB should always be held separate and not with SASS shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJT Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Is SASS shooting, devensive firearms training? HE!! NO!!!! That said. Shooting is about habits. You tend to do in emergencies what is practiced the most. If the 1911 is best applied in condition 1 with tactical reloads, then why use it like you are not familiar with it? There is a long and clear track record of competition use of 1911s in condition 1 and with tactical reloads. I would go further but I would hate to imply bad things about elderly females in a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 I reckon that I stirred a hornet nest on this one. I certainly appreciate the range of opinions. Maybe the true value of the forum for me is learning that a great deal of thought and work has already been done on this matter. It seems that my concerns are mostly defined by my limitations as a shooter. I will have to shoot within those limitations. Thanks to everyone for the input. See ya at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 we all have limitations of sorts, real or imagined its how we deal with them that counts I am thinking a door kick and this guy would be on his back in a hurry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I don't disagree with most of the posts and Buffalo Dick sums it up pretty well. That being said, I must confess that my proficiency with a 1911 is 100% greater since I've been shooting WB. Right handed, left handed, two handed or one handed I feel very comfortable at operating a 1911. Loading, dealing with various jams, bringing gun into play from condition 3 is also very second nature now. But I never carried a 1911 or used one in the military. I carried a Glock 17 under a suit for 15 years. When it comes to home defense, I rely first on my ruger 100 & 101 and then on my pump shotguns. For warm weather and deep conceal I use a colt 380 pocketlite, which has benefited from some nice carryover of the use of the 1911. So, while I don't consider SASS a defense course I can surely claim that it has improved my use of that gun in a defense situation. Guess it just depends on your starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 What Creeker said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It seems that I remember reading some where that SASS was not meant to teach anyone how to shoot. It is a game that is played by those who have had previous firearms training. Now having said that one of the clubs that I belong to had cowboy and WB shooters mixed and shooting on the same posses. Being a former Police Firearms Instructor that was my most nervous day of SASS shooting. I saw several members that had handling problems and many safety violations. There were shooters who had failure to fire because of the safety in the on position. There were several who failed to realize that each time a semi-auto fires it has one bullet exit the barrel, ejects that case and chambers another round. One shooter with the muzzle passing several people kept saying they were missing a round. They were shooting 4 and dropping the mag with one in the chamber. Maybe SASS should have a orientation with the guns used just as we do with new shooters. WB should always be held separate and not with SASS shooters. Yesterday, we had 14 shooters total of which 3 were WB -- only one big combined posse. NO problems. Kinda hard to run a posse of 3. We shoot cowboy exclusively on 2nd and 3rd Saturdays. 5th Saturday we open it up to include WBAS shooters also. 3 is not many but it is 3 times as many as showed up with a 1911 in October, i.e. just me. I was thrilled to have a coupla pards shootin' WB with me yesterday. Hopefully and ideally someday we will pull in some new folks to WB who never have and have no desire to shoot cowboy but get intrigued by WBAS. Ideally someday we will have enuff turn-out to have separate posses, but that day is still out there in the future an unknown time away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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