Blackpowder Questions

[Bridog]

Hello All,

 

New shooter here... I'm looking at shooting the frontier cartridge class and have some questions for you all. I like the look of smoke coming out of those barrels.

 

I am shooting stainless vaqueros 38's, stoeger nickel sxs and still looking at rifles (leaning towards a 38/357 Rossi 92 stainless).

 

Is Triple 7 powder a legal "blackpowder" powder to use?

 

How bad does the internals of the guns get from black powder usage? ie from blow by, and gasses coming out around the cylinders

How often do you need to pull the guts of the gun apart?

Cleaning tips?

 

Do you reload the shotgun shells in plastic hulls with plastic wads much the same way you do smokeless? Or is there a seperate process for loading BP?

 

Are you guys just using BP for the matches and smokeless for practice?

 

Any other odd tips or input would be greatly appreciated.

 

What are your thoughts on using the 38 for this class? - I'd assume it has much more blow back within the rifle than a longer cased round.

 

Thanks for your help - Bridog

[Three Foot Johnson]

Hello All,

 

New shooter here... I'm looking at shooting the frontier cartridge class and have some questions for you all. I like the look of smoke coming out of those barrels.

 

I am shooting stainless vaqueros 38's, stoeger nickel sxs and still looking at rifles (leaning towards a 38/357 Rossi 92 stainless).

 

Is Triple 7 powder a legal "blackpowder" powder to use? Yes

 

How bad does the internals of the guns get from black powder usage? ie from blow by, and gasses coming out around the cylinders

How often do you need to pull the guts of the gun apart? I very seldom detail strip my BP revolvers

Cleaning tips? Hot soapy water, thoroughly dry (small air compressor works well), light oiling

 

Do you reload the shotgun shells in plastic hulls with plastic wads much the same way you do smokeless? Or is there a seperate process for loading BP? I use plastic wads in 12 & 20g, and card wads in 10g. For 12 & 20g, I prime on a Lee LoadAll, charge the powder with a Lee dipper, then back to the LoadAll for shot & crimping.

 

Are you guys just using BP for the matches and smokeless for practice? Practice??

 

Any other odd tips or input would be greatly appreciated.

 

What are your thoughts on using the 38 for this class? - I'd assume it has much more blow back within the rifle than a longer cased round. A quite authentic cartridge, really, if you call 'em .38 Long Colts instead of .38 Specials. If you want to be more authentic yet, trim 'em by thirteen thousandths.

 

Thanks for your help - Bridog

[Tangent Ranger]

I use 777 in .45LC, for BP gunfighter. It's real easy for cleanup, especially if you use a good bullet lube. If you shoot a large match, you might need to lube and clean the action on the rifle after 6 or 8 stages, but I haven't had to. I loaded 12 gauge like bp, but hodgeden has loading info on loads with wads. I've also been told you can light load the 777, being smokeless powder that puts out more pressure than black powder. For practice, I usually use random combinations for different recoil and smoke to keep me guessing on reactions. Have a happy new year, and enjoy the darker side of cowboy shooting.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Most shoot 44-40 or 45 Colt for BP, not 38s.

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Friend I'd shoot what I took fancy to, 38's is fine an 45 is fine. Fun is whut is fine. 777 is a water clwan up easy as any an more powerful than most a great choice. While its not cheap its easy ta git. Hope ye have aball.

 

 

RRR

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Bridog -

 

You are on a workable path. You DON'T have to use stainless or nickel guns to shoot BP or a substitute like Trip 7. The old guys sure didn't have all shiney guns back in the day. Shoot whatever rifle you want. Be aware that a '92 is a pain to deail strip for that 6 month cleaning. A Marlin or a 73 would be a lot more friendly, and faster to shoot, too.

 

Suggest you browse through the good Capt Baylor's reference work on BP subs for CAS:

 

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

Good luck, GJ

[Iron Pony]

Bridog there are lots folks using 38 in BP categories, using real BP or subs like 777. My ex used 32s in her vaqueros and 38 in a marlin with no one complaining about the amount of smoke etc. As you note there will be more blowback with the straight wall cases, the 44-40 or 38-40 in a 73/66/Henry is the best choice but that 38 marlin was easy to strip down and clean. Make sure you do just that if you are using a sub because they will draw and hold moisture which will cause problems.

 

Upside to using 777 is you can load smokeless bullets, cheaper and easier to get from any of a number of good dealer who are in the sport. Paul Moulton of Moulton Lead is one you can count on and trust for good products. If you decide to shoot real BP you need a BP specific bullet like the biglubes, see my signature line, you dont have to worry about the rapido clean up process and the powder is WAY less expensive.

 

What you have for guns right now is fine but I'd look at a marlin instead of the rossi, I think they make one of those in stainless as well. The nice thing about shiny guns is you can easily see where the fouling is but those Rugers are wicked bright in the sun. If you have someone who can bead blast them you wont be blinded by the bright finish, plus they look neat.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I've shot BP & subs for about 6 years now. I shoot .45 and reload everything myself. My revs are LongHunter Rugers in SS with SBH hammers (I shoot duelist), 73 and SKB SxS.

 

In My Vaqueros I shoot the .45 Cowboy Specials, which are similiar in size to Scholfields. All my metalic loads are filled to just below the rim so when seating the lead, it compresses the powder slightly. I use a 160 gr bullet in the CS Special & a 200 gr for my 73. I DO NOT USE ANY SPECAL BULLET OR LUBE Whatever is on the factory bullet is fine. I use Rim Rock Bullets for my lead. for our type of shooting I don't believe we need the special lubed bullets. My loads don't lead up the barrels, so why go to the extra trouble. Long range shooting is a different animal

 

For shotgun loads I use plastic hulls (prefer STS Remington, but AA work well too) and prelubed fiber wads and card wads. I don't get any melted plastic in the barrel from the plastic wads.

 

During a match I don't ever have any problem with my Rugers or SKB's. I sometimes have a problem with my 73 after 5 or 6 stages, it gets "sticky". I carry a small spray bottle of water and spray the innerds around the carrier and every is fine.

 

After a match I clean everything using Windex w/vinager. I only disassemble my 73 after 2 or 3 shoots.

 

Been doing it this way for 4 or 5 years. Works for me, but everyone has to do what works for them.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Hello All,

 

New shooter here... I'm looking at shooting the frontier cartridge class and have some questions for you all. I like the look of smoke coming out of those barrels.

 

I am shooting stainless vaqueros 38's, stoeger nickel sxs and still looking at rifles (leaning towards a 38/357 Rossi 92 stainless).

 

Is Triple 7 powder a legal "blackpowder" powder to use?

 

Yes. You use the same bullets that you do for smokeless.

 

How bad does the internals of the guns get from black powder usage? ie from blow by, and gasses coming out around the cylinders

How often do you need to pull the guts of the gun apart?

Cleaning tips?

 

The internals won't get much dirtier tha nthey do with smokeless. With BP or subs the fouling occurs on the front of the cylinder, back of the barrel and inside the frame opening. I use MPro7 lube and it works fine. Cleaning is a snap with MPro7 too. Much easier than smokeless I think.

 

Do you reload the shotgun shells in plastic hulls with plastic wads much the same way you do smokeless? Or is there a seperate process for loading BP?

 

Yes. My two favorite BP loads use WW red and WW orange wads. in WW AA cases.

 

Are you guys just using BP for the matches and smokeless for practice?

 

Sometimes I shoot the heathen powder, sometimes BP. Depends on my mood!

 

Any other odd tips or input would be greatly appreciated.

 

What are your thoughts on using the 38 for this class? - I'd assume it has much more blow back within the rifle than a longer cased round.

 

Blowback isn't as bad as with the 45LC. 38 is just fine, lots of people use it! If you're using a 73 DONT lube the carrier or the frame mortise. These areas should be dry (they don't need lube anyway) Your fouling will be less and the rifle will run smoother.

 

Thanks for your help - Bridog

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Bridog and welcome to the Dark Side.

 

777 is a fine choice, and loads well in 38/357 cartridges. I've been using it for a couple of years now in 357, 45, and 12 gauge without any problems.

 

I use whatever bullets my local 'caster has. No need for special lubes in the grooves. STS hulls and Winchester WAA12 wads work fine.

 

I lube the base pin of my revolvers with white lithium grease. It keeps any fouling from getting in and binding the cylinder. Regular oil allows the fouling to creep (capillary action) onto the pin. I understand that some pards have had good results using Mobil synthetic grease as well.

 

I pre-swab my shotgun bores with WD-40. Makes post-match cleaning easy, as any fouling or wad residue just falls right out when hit with a brush.

 

I shot a 357 '92 with 777 and never had any problems with the action getting gummed up with any fouling. A good tight crimp on the case allows the pressure to build properly and it seals in the chamber quite well, so blowback is minimal.

 

Cleanup afterwards is pretty easy with 777 too. A few passes with the brush to knock the residue out, followed up with a wet swabbing (everybody has their favorite recipe for cleaner too) and then a pass with the lubing patch. Almost takes longer to describe how to do it than it does to do it.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Bridog,

 

Sending you a PM. Lots of good advice has been posted.

 

bb

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Bridog,

 

Sending you a PM. Lots of good advice has been posted.

 

bb

Dang Billy, the whole world is waiting to hear how you do it and you go and send the pard a PM.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Morning Rowdy, Happy New Year.

 

The way the wire is these days, thought I would just keep my comments personal. That way I would not be having to go back and forth on the wire explaining my "whys"....think you know what I mean.

 

I would possibly get argument right off the bat with my high recomendation of 38s. Not even bringing in the point of competition, they are cheaper to shoot and as most of us "older" shooters know, much easier on the wrists (ibuprofen for the thumbs).

 

Actually, there was already really good advice given. Ya'know BP really is not so complicated as long as one knows he MUST clean before storage if he/she wants to protect the guns, but the clean is pretty dern simple. If shooter is very competitive minded he/she just has to start out knowing they can be slightly handicapped on some days (still, humid, facing east, etc....good example is usually first rotation at EOT) due to smoke generated.

 

bb

[Rowdy Yates, SASS #141]

Just pullin' your leg a bit Billy, I know exactly what you're talkin' about.

 

Here's wishing you and yours a most Happy & Prosperous New Year.

 

Hope to see you at Winter Range this year.

[John Boy]

Bridog, I've been using original gunpowder (BP) since I started CAS in 2002. I have blued and SS revolvers, rifles, all with brass frames (45 Colts) and original SxS's with Damascus and smokeless proofed barrels (12ga).

My 'workhorse's are:

* Matched pair of OM Ruger SS Birds heads - never had been disassembled for cleaning

* LSI Rossi M92 - disassemble 2x times for internal cleaning

Both using 454 diameter original design Ideal 454190 bullets with a tight crimp to minimize blowback. The revolvers & rifle have to have had 12,000+ rounds shot through them

* 1901 Parkerhurst Damascus external cock SxS, using AA hulls and plastic wads. Sometimes they shoot brass hulls with fiber wads

 

Cleaning: Buy a hand held steam cleaner to clean BP or any subs. A spritz of Dawn in the water. Then steam clean the firearms, use a Bore Snake to remove any remaining foul and then patch the bores with Eezox, a few drops into the innards and wipe with a shop cloth coated with Eezox ... Done. A complete simple and relatively fast method of cleaning

* Blued v SS Cleaning ... I find SS cleans faster than blued firearms

 

The key when shooting to preclude cylinder binding is a good lube with sufficient GG's. You may want to consider using the original Snakebite 38 caliber Big Lube bullets. With my 45's have shot 2 day matches, no binding of any kind and no cleaning until the end of the match with both PRS Big Lubes and the 454190 bullets

 

I can't speak about 38's because I don't own or shoot any but they will work just fine if you put a tight crimp on the bullet. Plus the revolver throats are reamed 0.0005 oversize

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I shoot 38s out out Marlins using 777 FFg and Hodgdon's loading data. My 158 grain bullets have plenty of knockdown capability. I clean after every match since some fouling enters the action. Marlins are very easy to field strip and clean. I shoot stainless steel guns since I sometimes shoot in rain and they resist rust better than blued guns. Triple seven hasn't damaged my blued guns though it will leave a dark brown tarnish on brass so wash your brass after shooting. My wife and I both shoot Rugers and triple seven loads. Her single sixes will run a couple stages without binding. My old model Vaqueros will run 6 stages. I just lube the base pin with straight ballistol and wipe the cylinder faces with a damp rag and they are ready to run. I find 777 ignites better if I use rounds loaded within the last month and stored in a dry place.

 

I do not load 777 in shot shells due to cost and excessive recoil. For me I load real BP using CB 1138-12 wads. The gives me great muzzle flash and ample stench. The melted plastic from the wads is easily removed from the barrels of my SxS. For my wife I load using the same wad but with APP. That gives less recoil and no sulfur stench. This is important to her.

 

Welcome to the dark side. The spectators enjoy the flash, boom and white cloud as much as you will. Train you counters to stand well off to the side so they can see hits on the targets. Tell them to call your shotgun targets since you may not see them fall.

[Oklahomabound]

Here are my thoughts in addition to the fine advice given above:

 

I shoot OM Rugers in .45 Colt/Marlin in .45 Colt/Stoeger sxs in 12 gauge or '51 R/M Open Top Conversions in .38 Special/Marlin in .38 Special/Stoeger sxs in 12 gauge using either 777 or Schuetzen Ffg (which is much cheaper).

 

 

I am shooting stainless vaqueros 38's, stoeger nickel sxs and still looking at rifles (leaning towards a 38/357 Rossi 92 stainless). .....these are fine to shoot, recommend Marlin for ease in cleaning....

 

Is Triple 7 powder a legal "blackpowder" powder to use? .....yes it is, use it myownself.... recommend Schuetzen Ffg because it is less expensive.....

 

How bad does the internals of the guns get from black powder usage? ie from blow by, and gasses coming out around the cylinders ....not bad at all. Cleaning Process: disassembly is field stripping, use the wife's kitchen sink along with her electric pot which boils water. Pour the boiling hot water through the gun parts (one gun at a time). Stop up the sink, and swich the parts around in the boiling water. Immediately take the gun/parts to the garage and liberally spray down with Moose Milk (1/3 Murphy's Oil, 1/3 alcohol, 1/3 water) this stops any flash rust from forming. Wipe down with Balistol with one swipe of the barrel using a Balistol soaked patch or bore snake. Reassemble.

How often do you need to pull the guts of the gun apart? ...never....

Cleaning tips?

 

Do you reload the shotgun shells in plastic hulls with plastic wads much the same way you do smokeless? ....yes, using my MEC 600 junior, except I drop the Black Powder from a RCBS Black Powder Measure.... Or is there a seperate process for loading BP? ....nope....

 

Are you guys just using BP for the matches and smokeless for practice? ...practice....????????

 

Any other odd tips or input would be greatly appreciated. ....read Capt. Baylor's stuff....

 

What are your thoughts on using the 38 for this class? - A lot of folks use .38 Special in Frontier Cartridge and it's fine, plenty of smoke.....just ask those that shoot with me.... I'd assume it has much more blow back within the rifle than a longer cased round.

[Bridog]

Wow! That's a wealth of knowledge and advice from you all. I think I'll have to print this off just to take it all in!

 

The one thing that I took away from much of what you guys are saying - Cleaning and corrosion are not that big of deal - Everyone does it a little bit different but all get the job done...

 

Looks like a fun class from what I have seen - All that smoke is what really got me drawn in when I watched some stages awhile back.

 

Thanks again for passing on your guys experiences...

 

Bridog

[Noz]

My only comment is that if real black powder is available I would use it over 777. Cheaper and for me, easier cleanup.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Wow! That's a wealth of knowledge and advice from you all. I think I'll have to print this off just to take it all in!

 

The one thing that I took away from much of what you guys are saying - Cleaning and corrosion are not that big of deal - Everyone does it a little bit different but all get the job done...

 

Looks like a fun class from what I have seen - All that smoke is what really got me drawn in when I watched some stages awhile back.

 

Thanks again for passing on your guys experiences...

 

Bridog

Howdy Bridog, yes each darksider has their own recipie for success. Its a wee-bit of a journey to find out what works best in your guns, so enjoy the trip. If things don't seem to be working, just ask the wire and you get years of advice.

 

I can't add much to what has been said, only that, you really should try the different powders available to you. You would be surprised at the differences. I know I was. I went and tested several brands of subs and back powder and found the results pretty entertaining.

 

Tripple 7 is a good powder and 38s are fine for the game.

 

The only tip I can add is for shotshells. Follow the mfg recipie for shotshell. Be sure to get the crimp (wad column) correct. I use whatever black powder is the cheapest I can get for shotshells. Use plastic hulls only once. Use any brand your shotgun can eject/drop well.

 

Plastic wads are fine, however, BP and subs will melt he wads a bit so inside your barrles will get coated with a lot of melted plastic. Not to worry, its easy enough to clean: After a day of shooting, spray windex inside the barrles and let them sit while you clean your other guns. Then use really hot water and the plastic will push right out with some patches wrapped on a bore brush. Heat is the important point.

 

Have fun.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

My comment will be on the model 92 rifle.

But first. My guns get feed just about everything. As a commercial reloader I test the information I get from my customers to make sure it is workable. Besides I want to know if what they ask for works better than what I use for myself. Some one might just have a better formula and if they do, I will adapt to it.

 

I shoot smokeless about 70%, real BP 29% and substitutes 1%. Just starting with subs.

 

When it comes to cleaning I'm not real consistent. A few years back I actually wanted to see how long I could shoot my Ruger OM 45 with smokeless before I had to take them apart and clean them. I only wiped down the outside so I could hold on to them and I would clean the cylinder chambers when I couldn't get the round to go in. I did place them in plastic zip lock bags and take all the air out. This was to keep any moisture from the guns. Well at 13 months I started having problems. Not major but I finally had to break down and clean them completely.

 

Now the rifle. I have shot the same Rossi 92 since day one. With BP. I clean the bore every 2 stages with just a damp patch. I may not need to do this with substitutes but I have been shooting real BP for ever and it's just the way I have done it. To clean it thoroughly I have never take the thing apart. I don't think I could get it back together. I take the one screw out that holds the stock on. Remove the stock and then I dip the receiver up near the forearm wood in a large pan of boiling soapy water until the run off is clear. Then I hold the gun up until the water evaporates. This takes just a few seconds. Then I dip the entire receiver to the forearm wood in a can of WD-40 to displace all the water and to stop any rusting. The rusting happens so fast you can see the metal turning orange as you hold up to dry. I leave it there for a few minutes or longer if I forget it's there. I remove it and let it drip off then hit it with air for the compressor. Before the next match I will oil up the moving parts lightly. A little grease on the bolt side rails. I'm good to go. Normal cleaning is just flooding the receiver with WD-40 or break free and hitting it with compressed air and brushing the bore out. It's not a big deal. This is my main match rifle and has been in services since 1992 and used 3 or 6 times a month besides it is also one of my test guns in the shop.

 

Some seem to make a big deal out of cleaning procedures. Can't hurt if that's what you want to do. But for me, I don't fine breaking a gun down every match or even once a month to be needed. It certainly doesn't need to be broken down every stage during a match. Just a wet patch down the bore of the rifle every couple of stages and I'm good to go.

 

Now I am just starting to work substitutes myself. I'll be trying different methods to see what works the best and easiest for me.

 

Sorry to be so long winded. I personally think cleaning up guns after shooting BP easier than smokeless. More mess but easier and in a short time. Looking forward to working with the substitutes. Yes I will be looking for the easiest to clean. My problem seems to be the smoke itself. Some of the substitutes burn my nose to the point I have to walk away. The burning last a few day after being exposed. So that will also influence my choice.

 

OH! Nothing wrong with using a model 92 with smokeless of any BP or sub.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

My only comment is that if real black powder is available I would use it over 777. Cheaper and for me, easier cleanup.

I agree, real BP is just as easy to clean and shoot as any sub, less expensive, and less corrosive. I often don't clean my guns till days after a match, can't do that with subs. 38sp with Big Lube Snakebites will run all day without any problem, plus real fire and smoke . Clean up is easy with Murphy's mix and Ballistol. Good Luck.

 

Jefro

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

I use .38LC in my pistols as I shoot BP Gunfighter. Rifle is a .45LC Marlin. I know many talented pards have come up with lots of ways to simplify the cleaning of the other kinds of rifles, but for me, you can't beat 1 screw and 3 loose parts for simple which is just one of the resons I love my Marlins. (I have quite a few Marlins). I like bigger ammo for rifle, easier at the loading table and for the occasion rifle reload stage, too. I used my .38 Marlin for several years, first with subs and then with real BP -- always worked fine, I just like .45 better.

 

I don't think anybody mentioned that depending on laws where you live, the subs (like 777) might be easier or even the only thing you can get or store legally. The 777 has a little more "punch" for the same volume, so .38 is a good choice of caliber for that powder. Getting regular bullets to use with subs helps offset some of the higher cost of the powder. Having to order special BP bullets and have them shipped to you generally gets real BP shooters into casting thier own pretty quick. Not everybody is up for that much of a commitment!

 

Your guns will "tell" you what they like and don't like, just pay attention to them and be ready to adjust if/as needed until everybody is happy. Weather will make things different much more so with BP (or sub) than with smokeless. My guns run longer and rust faster in high humidity. They crust up faster but don't rust in a place like AZ.

 

The Eezox John Boy mentioned is fabulous stuff. I use it on all my guns.

 

Welcome to the Darkside, you will love it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A reminder - when shooting rifles with subs or BP, you MUST check and clean the magazine tube periodically. If the tube is carbon steel, that period had best be about once every other month. Water from cleaning gets into the tube, along with some fouling residue (salts). This corrodes the mag spring, the follower and the tube. Clean with patches on a cleaning rod run through the mag (from muzzle end), lube with a wax type rust preventer (Eezox, Boeshield, Flitz)

 

Good luck, GJ

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

A couple of things not mentioned;

do not compress 777-makes it too hot a load

Pyrodex makes cheap shot shells

if you want to switch back and forth between

BP and smokless clean your guns with Ballistol only

Black is the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

[Bridog]

I got a chance to read up on Capt Baylors web site and his links last night. That is some very good info. Thanks for letting me know they were out there. Probably make up some triple 7 loads this week or so to give it a try as I have a partial bottle from my muzzleloader sitting on my bench.

 

Good Shooting - Bridog

[John Boy]

Bridog, you are to be complimented. One of few new shooters that asks a question, does their suggested reading homework and come back in a timely manner ... With a Thank You.

My Hat is off to You

[Fairshake]

From your first post I would say that you have been exposed to a lot of BP old wives tales. Things like you have to clean your gun right away or it will be a hunk of rust. You have to tear your gun all apart and put it in a tub of Hot water and soap to clean. Your bore will be so dirty it will clog up. All of these are of course false. I am a 100% BP shooter and don't load or shoot any other powder. There are several pards here that will tell you the subs are the best thing to shoot. Be fore warned about Pyrodex. When it is fired it produces one of the most hydroscopic chemicals known and may rust your gun overnite. I have shot my guns with real BP and not cleaned them for 4 days with no harm done. After you give it a try and if you enjoy the idea of shooting BP please take time to try the real powder also.

[Tom Bullweed]

Lots of good info above this, but here is my $.02 worth:

- I have a tuned Rossi '92 in .38/.357 that only feeds .357s reliably. The '92 feeds rounds into the chamber at an angle (as opposed to the Henry's, '66s and '73s) and can be very intolerant of oal variances. You may want to check out websites that show the steps required to disassemble the '92 prior to buying one. I have an original in .38WCF that is my favorite all-purpose rifle. '92s just feel right.

- Many, many shooters do well with the Marlins. The are American-made, reasonably-priced and easy to disassemble.

- I have original and Uberti '73s. The original bottle-neck cartridges swell to fill the chamber when fired and keep the blowback to a minimum. There are websites that show how straight cartridges can be annealed to allow them to do the same. I plan on trying this myself very soon with BP in .38 Special.

[Bridog]

I have been following the links that started in Capt Baylors web site - Boy there's alot of good web sites out there with info. I think I bookmarked a dozen sites to go back to. This simple post sure has opened my eyes... and saved me alot of time and expense/errors.

 

Thanks Again to all that gave input - Now to get the supplies together and experiment and make some smoke!

 

Bridog

[Denhamville Mayor]

I have been shooting black powder since the mid-1960's, here is what I have learned over that time:

 

1. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS CLEAN YOUR GUN(s) ASAP AFTER SHOOTING THEM using black powder or one of the subs. This has to become an IRONCLAD HABIT. More blackpowder firearms have been ruined because they were put away without being cleaned: The owner meant to clean them but forgot or whatever.

 

2. Nothing beats hot, soapy water as a black powder solvent. In addition it is always available and the cheapest cleaner around.

 

3. After cleaning and drying I use BREAK FREE to oil my firearms and protect them. Strange as it seems I have had problems with long term rust EVEN WHEN I THOROUGHLY CLEANED and oiled guns and then put it away. Break Free prevents long term rust in my experience.

 

4. My experience has been that there are "Black Powder Substitutes" that are even more CORROSIVE than black powder IF the gun is NOT cleaned and oiled properly.

 

My main point: Get into the habit of IMMEDIATELY cleaning your guns after shooting them!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Here we go again.

 

I too have been shooting Black Powder since the 1960s. 1968 to be specific. I too used to believe that you had to clean your guns immediately after shooting them or they would start to rust.

 

For the last five or six years in CAS I have loaded and shot nothing but Black Powder. Revolvers, rifles, and shotguns. I go through 15 to 20 pounds of FFg a year. I have learned that it is NOT necessary to clean your guns right away.

 

Part of the problem with Black Powder in the old days was it was coupled with corrosive primers. We no longer use corrosive primers, and when using Black Powder with modern corrosive primers, the fouling is not as corrosive as was formerly believed. By the way, there is still plenty of military ammo out there that uses Smokeless powder, but corrosive primers. And because of the corrosive primers, that stuff may cause rust. But not Black Powder and modern non-corrosive primers. At least that has been my experience.

 

I very seldom clean my guns the same day I shoot them. Most of my Cowboy guns are regular blued steel, not Stainless. I try to clean them within a week of shooting them. If I don't get around to it in a week, I will make time as soon as I can. I am not going to go on record here and say just how long I have left my guns uncleaned from Black Powder fouling, but it has been a long time, and it has been in the humid summer months.

 

One other thing. Black Powder fouling, though hygroscopic, loses its ability to draw moisture from the air if it can be infused with oil. It's like a sponge that has already soaked up all the water it can hold, it won't hold any more. So after I clean my guns with my favorite water based BP cleaning solution I make sure to squirt some Ballistol down inside. Whatever fouling has worked its way into the guts of the gun will soak up the Ballistol and will lose its ability to soak up any water from the air. The result is no rust down inside, so you don't have to take them apart every time you clean them. I take my guns apart once a year to remove the black, oily guk that is down inside. There is always plenty of guk, there is never any rust.

 

These comments are based on five or six years of shooting nothing but Black Powder in CAS. Take it or leave it, it is worth what you paid for it. These comments also are strictly about real Black Powder. I have no experience with the substitutes, so I do not feel qualified to speak about them.

 

P.S. One of the reasons shooters may have felt they had to clean their guns right away was because they were using water to clean them. Yes, I understand that water is a terrific BP cleaning agent. But the problem is you have to get all the water out again or you may get rust. Hot water does not always do it. Heat does not always get all the water out. If water is left down inside the gun with BP fouling, all bets are off. Yes, water is cheap, but there are better things now, and they can be used at room temperature, they do not have to be heated.

[Chantry]

I have been using the factory suggested loaded using either a 147 or 158gr bullet and 2F Triple 777 in my 38 loads out of my 66. I use a good crimp and seen no evidence of rust in the internals, every 4 or 5 matches, I'll pull the sideplate and give it a quick cleaning, more out of habit then any real need. I normally shoot cap and ball with 2F Triple 777 , when I shoot frontier cartridge, I use the same load as the rifle. Plenty of smoke, plenty of knockdown on steel targets. I generally pull the base pin on the revolvers at lunch, give them a quick wipe and squirt some Ballistol, I can generally get 6 stages before the cylinders start to gum up.

 

I'd suggest regular BP for the shotgun, both because it's cheaper and because with Triple 777 I found hull life to be rather short using heavy loads in my 10 gauge.

 

I've come home after a long match, given the guns a squirt of Ballistol in the barrels, pulled the cylinders and squirted them and come back and cleaned them a day or two later and seen no sign of rust.

[Smithy]

If you can believe it I started out shooting big lube bullets in the 300 grain variety for my 45 LC and they worked great albeit a bit overkill. Choosing something with a little more common sense I switched to a 200 grain mold but the resultant slug had a puny lube groove that paled in comparison to the big lube's grooves. I had to do something to help the situation out or I was going to be locked up before the second stage. My memory helped me out here and a call went into Corbin Manufacturing. http://www.corbins.com/hct-1.htm I picked up one of their cannelure tools that imparts a diamond pattern over the entire bearing surface of the bullet. I then pan lube the bullets and run them through a final pass through a Lee sizer die to 452 diameter. In short what that does is ensures that every piece of bullet that touches the bore has lube on it! No gaps, no lands, nothing that doesn't have a good amount of lube all over it. I immediately went from just barely squeaking out six stages to easily cranking out nine without a problem. I admit it is kind of time consuming, but well worth the effort. Something to think about. Smithy.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Here we go again.

 

I too have been shooting Black Powder since the 1960s. 1968 to be specific. I too used to believe that you had to clean your guns immediately after shooting them or they would start to rust.

 

For the last five or six years in CAS I have loaded and shot nothing but Black Powder. Revolvers, rifles, and shotguns. I go through 15 to 20 pounds of FFg a year. I have learned that it is NOT necessary to clean your guns right away.

 

Part of the problem with Black Powder in the old days was it was coupled with corrosive primers. We no longer use corrosive primers, and when using Black Powder with modern corrosive primers, the fouling is not as corrosive as was formerly believed. By the way, there is still plenty of military ammo out there that uses Smokeless powder, but corrosive primers. And because of the corrosive primers, that stuff may cause rust. But not Black Powder and modern non-corrosive primers. At least that has been my experience.

 

I very seldom clean my guns the same day I shoot them. Most of my Cowboy guns are regular blued steel, not Stainless. I try to clean them within a week of shooting them. If I don't get around to it in a week, I will make time as soon as I can. I am not going to go on record here and say just how long I have left my guns uncleaned from Black Powder fouling, but it has been a long time, and it has been in the humid summer months.

 

One other thing. Black Powder fouling, though hygroscopic, loses its ability to draw moisture from the air if it can be infused with oil. It's like a sponge that has already soaked up all the water it can hold, it won't hold any more. So after I clean my guns with my favorite water based BP cleaning solution I make sure to squirt some Ballistol down inside. Whatever fouling has worked its way into the guts of the gun will soak up the Ballistol and will lose its ability to soak up any water from the air. The result is no rust down inside, so you don't have to take them apart every time you clean them. I take my guns apart once a year to remove the black, oily guk that is down inside. There is always plenty of guk, there is never any rust.

 

These comments are based on five or six years of shooting nothing but Black Powder in CAS. Take it or leave it, it is worth what you paid for it. These comments also are strictly about real Black Powder. I have no experience with the substitutes, so I do not feel qualified to speak about them.

 

P.S. One of the reasons shooters may have felt they had to clean their guns right away was because they were using water to clean them. Yes, I understand that water is a terrific BP cleaning agent. But the problem is you have to get all the water out again or you may get rust. Hot water does not always do it. Heat does not always get all the water out. If water is left down inside the gun with BP fouling, all bets are off. Yes, water is cheap, but there are better things now, and they can be used at room temperature, they do not have to be heated.

 

My experience with real bp is basically the same as DJ's. I know I have gone at least two weeks before cleaning with no ill effects.