Ben Stein Cemmentary on CBS Sunday

[Lefty Wheeler]

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu .. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina).. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit.

 

 

If not, then just discard it.... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,

Ben Stein

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

Im copying this one Lefty!Thanks

How about y"all?

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

This is what Snopes and Urban Legends have to say... basically, it has been modified from its original transcript.

 

Snopes

 

Urban Legends

[DocWard]

Well, what I am about to write may cause a few people to get upset with me, including the powers that be. I hope not, and I will make every attempt to keep things as factual and tactful as possible.

 

I will preface all I am about to say by saying I am not a Christian, though I am not an atheist either. Some would call me an agnostic, I wouldn't use that term either. I do believe there is something beyond this earthly realm, but I don't know what form that something takes.

 

I used to be quite the fan of Ben Stein. I agree with much of what he says politically and economically. However, I lost a tremendous amount of respect for him, and began to judge what he says with more than a modicum of suspicion after "Expelled" came out, and it was shown to be the factual equivalent to a Michael Moore piece, only from a religious conservative direction, and not as well done. In short, it was deceptive, misleading, and factually inaccurate. So I would take anything he says with a grain of salt now.

 

Given my above explained religious beliefs, or lack thereof, it may surprise many for me to say that I agree on a few points. For starters, I have no problem with a creche, a menorah, or the like being shown on public property. I walk by the Ten Commandments on my way into my office every morning, and I look at them as I do. You see, other than the Commandments specifically relating to the worship of God, I see them as generally being a reasonable guide to living one's life. I also recognize that, regardless of what anyone says, the Judeo-Christian ethic, that model of laws and mores that comes forward from that religious culture, informed our body of laws, to include our Constitution.

 

Which brings me to the Constitution. Per the article, Mr. Stein states "I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat." As a lawyer by education, I am sure that Mr. Stein is aware that the word "God" doesn't appear in the Constitution either. Nor does it appear in the Bill of Rights, although the word "religion" does. Thomas Jefferson, who from all I have been able to glean, was at best a "Deist," and not a Christian, famously penned the phrase "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" In The Declaration of Independence, got about as close to a truly religious reference as we see. Which, again, is not to say Mr. Stein is wrong, and that we are an atheistic country. In fact, I would assert that we are theistic to the point of our choosing, as individuals, as families and as congregations. But we are not one religion, chosen for us by the government, nor are we to be led by a government, chosen by one religion.

 

Which brings me to schools. I am elsewhere (on other forums) very outspoken about my opinion that Creationism / ID are not good science and should not be in our science classrooms. Elsewhere, if you can find a way to bring religious discussion into the school without insulting and belittling the intelligence, intellect and belief systems of those who are not Christian, or whatever doctrine is desired to be espoused, feel free. Please discuss the commonalities of religious belief, that there all have their version of the Golden Rule. But don't attempt to indoctrinate the students with one religious belief set. Otherwise, don't blame the "downfall of society" on schools and teachers. As parents, the duty is incumbent upon US to teach our children to be good and productive citizens, and that means instilling and fostering a sense of religious, philosophical or ethical spirit. In doing so WE have the ability to take our children to the church, synagogue, mosque or temple of OUR choosing. If we choose to spend that time sleeping, making sure our gardens are immaculate, or worshipping at the alter of sports fanaticism, then, well, we reap what WE sew.

 

For me, one of the more completely frustrating aspects of the modern conservative is that he will decry government interference and regulation, in his taxes, in the foods he eats, in the gas he puts in his car, and in his car, even and especially about his guns. Yet, he demands a specific government interference in his schools in order to provide the religious experience for his children that he wants, and is ultimately capable of providing his child himself. It is one of the reasons I identify more and more as libertarian.

 

If anyone has specific questions or comments about what I have written, I am open to polite discussions through PM.

 

With respect,

 

Doc

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...If anyone has specific questions or comments about what I have written, I am open to polite discussions through PM...

Hi Doc,

 

I'm not going to send you a PM. I just want to say that I find your comments to be well written and very thoughtful. I have no issues with your stating them here. After all, the Ben Stein commentary's theme is tolerance for differences in religious belief.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Although, I respect the fact that you are serving our country, I'd rather see an avatar of you in cowboy duds.

[DocWard]

PS Although, I respect the fact that you are serving our country, I'd rather see an avatar of you in cowboy duds.

 

As soon as I have one, I will get it on, ASAP. Promise! In the meantime, that was about the best I have, as bad as it is.

 

Oh, and thanks.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Why is it that folks have a proclivity to posting and passing on stuff they find on the internet, without taking the time to find out how factual it is, and whether the person it is attributed to actually said it?

 

DocWard:

 

Thank you for a very insightful and well thought out statement. I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you have said. I particularly agree with your statement about parents having the ultimate responsibility for instilling proper values in their children and not blaming teachers, schools, television, and everything else that gets blamed today. Let me also add, that EVERY generation thinks its children are going to hell in a hand basket. My grandfather thought Glen Miller and Benny Goodman's music was just terrible, because he grew up in the Victorian age.

 

Let me agree with your statements about certain sections of society attempting to shove their own agendas down the throats of everybody else.

 

And lastly, thank you for your service.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Got no real insights to add. Gotta say that the 2/3 of the original post that snopes attributes to Ben pretty much is in aggreement to my personal thoughts. The addendum that snopes attributes to an unknown writer also is in much alignment with my own beliefs. Regardless of the author, the words of the original post seem to have great credence.

 

I also like Doc's writings. It appears that he also agrees with much of the original post. The one area of difference seems to be whether we are an atheist country as seen by the forefathers founding this great nation. It is my belief that we were founded as a nation of religious freedom. Meaning that the government cannot place restrictions on our peacful worship. I believe that the verbage of amendment I addresses this quite well.

 

Likewise, I believe that our educational system should come under the control of the parents within the community and not as a branch of the state or federal hiearchy.

[Long Branch Louie]

I believe a man should have the right to believe as he chooses. I agree with Ben that a display of someone's choice doesn't offend me during the holidays or whatever you choose to call them. I have no particular problem with not promoting any religion in school, as long as you don't promote anything else such as same sex marriages, or views of an extremely right or left nature. It all gets kinda fuzzy about where my beliefs stop and yours start if we are truly a free Nation. The older I get, the more tolerant I have become about some things. I commented that I don't think it's right to teach same sex marriages in school, but I can also say I truly don't care what one does in private, just as what I do is none of their business either. All kinds of folks, black, white, Christian, Jew, Muslim, gay and atheist have fought and some died for this great Nation. I don't think one's loss was anymore important than anothers. I believe we can only stay free if we can accept each others differences even when we don't agree. I have no doubt there is a Supreme Being, but that's just my opinion and I am entitled to it. Best Wishes to all for a Happy New Year....

[Dusty Morningwood]

Likewise, I believe that our educational system should come under the control of the parents within the community and not as a branch of the state or federal hiearchy.

Yes and no. Parents certainly need to have a say in how well their children are being taught, but letting them decide to leave out national standards of, say, science and history because it conflicts with their views and replacing it with laughable fake science and regressive history is a mistake. This kind of situation cripples their kids on the world stage and makes them seek a more and more cloistered existance among "their own." I too could not care less what people believe. I have Diest views much like the most prominent and important of our Founding Fathers. And I think Doc meant "athiest nation" more in the sense that certain religions are not to drive government, instead of lack of belief in higher powers.

 

I hope all of my good SASS Pards and Pardettes have had a wonderful holiday season and wish you all a prosperous and Happy New Year.

Dusty

[Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479]

I think the hub bub about people of different faiths being offended by Christmas is for the most part manufactured by a few people with an agenda. I've lived most of my life here in San Antonio and a few years in Chicago and have know quite a few Jewish people who have shared Christmas dinner with my family and I've received many a "Merry Christmas" and presents from a number of them. The last year I've worked with a few people of the Muslim faith and I was concerned that we non Muslims would have to watch our words so as not to offend this past Christmas. I was surprised to see that when we put up our list for our Christmas pot luck that the Muslim co-workers signed up too. When I walked out the door on Christmas eve I received a cheerful "Merry Christmas" from a couple that were leaving at the same time.

[DocWard]

I also like Doc's writings. It appears that he also agrees with much of the original post. The one area of difference seems to be whether we are an atheist country as seen by the forefathers founding this great nation. It is my belief that we were founded as a nation of religious freedom.

 

And I think Doc meant "athiest nation" more in the sense that certain religions are not to drive government, instead of lack of belief in higher powers.

 

These two statements left me a bit confused, so I went back to review what I had written. I am guessing the following is the sentence that caused the confusion:

 

Which, again, is not to say Mr. Stein is wrong, and that we are an atheistic country.

 

It seems that what I was attempting to convey was understood, but seemed to be in need of explanation. Partly due to being buried n the middle of a paragraph, and partly due to my writing style. I was attempting to say that I will not disagree with Mr. Stein on this part. I do not believe we are an atheist nation, or that the founding fathers ever dreamed we should be so. We are a nation of widespread beliefs, and to the extent they do not become dangerous and harmful, each deserves protection. As Jefferson so eloquently put it, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

 

I believe Dusty is exactly right. When government and religion co-mingle, the danger is twofold. Either a certain religion drives government, often at the expense of others, or governmental control drives the religion, dictating the message. Certainly, both of these things can happen at the same time.

 

As I pointed out, the Constitution is silent on the issue of God, outside the protection of religion in the First Amendment. But to assert that the founding fathers intended the government to be "atheistic" as a result of this fact is folly, and not supported by anything I have read.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

Whole heartedly agree Doc, especially after the clarification.

 

I most certainly agree as to the ramifications should some students be left to the short sightedness of their parents. However, (1) I'm not 100% convinced that all students would fall into that trap. There are many example throughout history where children rose above the short comings of their environments and elders. (2) I think we tread on a slippery slope when government starts deciding what is a "national" standard. I realize that creates the question of "whom" should set the standard, but even the term "standard" starts becoming nebulous and maybe we don't need a "coded" standard. Standards for performance in any endeavor seems to often be self defining. Just how fast is fast, how high is high, and how smart is smart? In the most general sense, it seems that we as society are so concerned about the perceived problems of our education that we are trying to force knowledge, intelligence, and learning on our youngins'. My experience has been that learning especially higher learning is something to which one has to aspire. Much like going to the bathroom, it's just something that one must embrace for himself.

[DocWard]

Whole heartedly agree Doc, especially after the clarification.

 

I most certainly agree as to the ramifications should some students be left to the short sightedness of their parents. However, (1) I'm not 100% convinced that all students would fall into that trap. There are many example throughout history where children rose above the short comings of their environments and elders. (2) I think we tread on a slippery slope when government starts deciding what is a "national" standard. I realize that creates the question of "whom" should set the standard, but even the term "standard" starts becoming nebulous and maybe we don't need a "coded" standard. Standards for performance in any endeavor seems to often be self defining. Just how fast is fast, how high is high, and how smart is smart? In the most general sense, it seems that we as society are so concerned about the perceived problems of our education that we are trying to force knowledge, intelligence, and learning on our youngins'. My experience has been that learning especially higher learning is something to which one has to aspire. Much like going to the bathroom, it's just something that one must embrace for himself.

 

Don't get me started ranting about the educational system! Mrs. Doc is a teacher, and it becomes one heckuva frustrating process. From my perspective, we are doing nearly the opposite of what we need to be doing as a nation in regard to education. When we need to pushing our best and our brightest, and even our average students to excel, we are more concerned about not leaving the less intelligent children behind. No, I am not saying we should ignore them or shunt them aside, but we need to concentrate our resources toward pushing the envelope, not playing toward the lowest common denominator.

 

Along that same line, with the standardized testing and desire to put merit pay in place, some politicians somewhere seem to have forgotten a couple of things. More likely, they weren't bright enough to think of them in the first place. First, how can you give a teacher "merit pay" based solely on the performance of children on a test at the end of the year, without a starting reference point at the beginning of that year? How do you even consider a teacher's performance in a single year, without looking at other years for trending data? One year can be an anomaly, either in the teacher's live, or in the class or classes taught. Don't even bother with the family and socio-economic dynamics that exist in many inner city and very rural systems that play havoc on a student's ability to learn. Yet the Federal government wants to control all of the dollars and all of the process, without having a clue as to what works, or where.

 

I could go on, but I am going to back away from the keyboard and take a deep breath......

[Hardscrabble,SASS#41292]

It's very clear what the intent of the freedom of religion clause of the first amendment was deigned for,when you look at background documents and writings of the founding fathers.It was clear they did not want the same system in this country as they had under the English,where the crown established a government sanctioned/ instituted religion. I believe however the founders were not nearly as concerned with religion being involved in government as they were with government being involved and or controlling religion, after all people of faith, no matter what faith, are citizens and their voices are to be heard and represented in government. Likewise their organizations and institutions have a voice also,the fictitious "wall of separation" (note this phrase is not found in the constitution either) if it indeed exists would be to keep government out of the church,not the church out of government,in my opinion.Somewhere around 70% of the population associate themselves with the Christian religion (have heard it may be as high as 85%) not saying they are practicing or making judgments about their true faithfulness, that would be a whole thread in and of itself,but they do consider themselves "Christian",but somewhere along the line we began to be treated as a minority ,and that somehow our voice is not as important as the voice of others. It's amazing how most people think this country is a democracy,but yet when it becomes majority rules and they are a minority opinion, they want it to be different, then it has to be tolerant and fair and a level playing field( all phrases used to silence the majority) Just my opinion,and last I heard I am still free to express it.I, like everyone else, has the right to be wrong.

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

This comment strikes me as weird:

 

" I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat."

 

 

America is not an aetheist country ~ but it IS a secular government. The First Amendment forbids the government from establishing (or promoting) any one religious belief over another, whether christian, jew, islam, buddha, confucious, aetheist or agnostic.

 

Here one is free to worship or not as one wishes, without the government telling us we are right or wrong. One can attend the church, synagogue, tabernacle, chapel or cathedral, or woodland glade of one's choice; or one can go fishing or shooting. To each one's own. But government of any level (federal, state, city, or even elementary school) has no business promoting any religion. If you disagree, just imagine your kids' school promoting whatever is the antithesis to your own personal beliefs.

 

 

 

I probably screwed up posting this, so I apologize in advance.

 

Buena suerte, amigos

eGG

[Long Branch Louie]

Don't get me started ranting about the educational system! Mrs. Doc is a teacher, and it becomes one heckuva frustrating process. From my perspective, we are doing nearly the opposite of what we need to be doing as a nation in regard to education. When we need to pushing our best and our brightest, and even our average students to excel, we are more concerned about not leaving the less intelligent children behind. No, I am not saying we should ignore them or shunt them aside, but we need to concentrate our resources toward pushing the envelope, not playing toward the lowest common denominator.

 

Along that same line, with the standardized testing and desire to put merit pay in place, some politicians somewhere seem to have forgotten a couple of things. More likely, they weren't bright enough to think of them in the first place. First, how can you give a teacher "merit pay" based solely on the performance of children on a test at the end of the year, without a starting reference point at the beginning of that year? How do you even consider a teacher's performance in a single year, without looking at other years for trending data? One year can be an anomaly, either in the teacher's live, or in the class or classes taught. Don't even bother with the family and socio-economic dynamics that exist in many inner city and very rural systems that play havoc on a student's ability to learn. Yet the Federal government wants to control all of the dollars and all of the process, without having a clue as to what works, or where.

 

I could go on, but I am going to back away from the keyboard and take a deep breath......

 

Doc, I wholeheartedly agree!!! If we don't push the envelope now, we are going to be left behind in this world because edcuation is VERY important in developing countries. Edcuation should be one of the most important things our government spends on, but it is always one of the first to be cut. I'm an old fart with a 9 year old daughter and I spend time every night helping her with her projects, checking her work and making sure she understands things. I see other kids she goes to school with and it is obvious their parents spend no time with them, both in their behavior and their schoolwork. like you i know a teacher can only do so much, the foundation must be laid at home and mentoring must be constant....