Plainsman Rifle eligibility

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Doc Coles, RE: the handi-rifle, the late lamented Old Scout had more firearm knowledge under his fingernails than most men ever acquire. He said the Buffalo Classic, and by extension the handi-rifle, were similar to tip-up rifles made in the 19th century by a company called Wurrflein out of Philadelphia. I found references to the guns, but so far haven't been able to find a picture.

 

But in any event, whether for good or ill, "it isn't a replica of anything" doesn't seem to matter any more, as in the Henry Big Boy.

 

Nasty Newt

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Doc Coles, RE: the handi-rifle, the late lamented Old Scout had more firearm knowledge under his fingernails than most men ever acquire. He said the Buffalo Classic, and by extension the handi-rifle, were similar to tip-up rifles made in the 19th century by a company called Wurrflein out of Philadelphia. I found references to the guns, but so far haven't been able to find a picture.

 

But in any event, whether for good or ill, "it isn't a replica of anything" doesn't seem to matter any more, as in the Henry Big Boy.

 

Nasty Newt

 

http://www.pbase.com/halp/wurfflein_rifle

[Bad Hand]

I believe there were 2 or 3 Civil War Carbines, notably the "Smith" that tipped up. The "Maynard" was also a tip up rifle that offered interchangeable barrels and both center and rim fire firing pins. Here's a picture of a cased set.http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/gonzales/gonzales-rifle-set.gif

Hummm....wonder if you could say a TC Contender carbine could be derived from the Maynard?

[Dubious Don #56333]

Frank Wesson's 1860 rifle (A direct grandfather of the Topper and Pardner line 1871 break open actions) was issued in small numbers during the Civil War. He later partnered with his nehpew Gilbert Harrington in 1871. Mr. Wesson sold his interest to William Richardson. How does a firearm who's design clearly goes back to 1860 and was produced in one form or another throughout the latter part of the 1800's differ in any way from Rugers? Or Stoegers? Or Norinco 97's? Or ANY number of firearms used in SASS competition every weekend and ANY match you could think of at big matches or small, State, Regional, EOT or Winter Range and everything in between?

 

You see controversy where none exists. Mr. harvey asked a perfectly good question on a Low Wall who's caliber might be questionable. Mr. Pale Wolf, the ultimate ultimator has given his learned opinion and....You find fault with that? Oh, perhaps "we" are not as pure as "the good ol'days". Sorry to disappoint but this here is the 21st century. The world changes and (well, remember what happened to the dinosaurs.) Play what word games you will but even if that rifle was in 357 and he shot 357, I, as a match official (and I expect the like-minded REASONABLE folk with a small does of common sense that I shoot with would agree is a small matter not worthy of any significant attention. If Mr. Harvey had not dallied and purchased that rifle and chose to shoot 38 short or special, so much the better. If opinions vary in other areas perhaps asking first is very good policy. (and don't believe ever-thang you read on the Wire)

 

There is NOTHING wrong with SASS.It continues to grow as a sport and is by far, one of the largest AND, you won't find better people ANYWHERE.

 

Last year EOT had 16 Plainsman. Winter Range has seen 25-31 the last three years. Can't speak for EOT but I know WR because I have shot all three years. (or maybe I'm hallucinating) Rifle targets were a heck of a lot farther than 15 yards (could have been around thirty but maybe I'm hallucinating about that too)

 

Lots of us shot 45-70 and downloaded at that becuz we're all scrawny and don't hold up to recoil too well. Or maybe it was those 500 grain spent bullets whizzing back from thirty yard targets that skeered us into using more grits than powder in our loads. (Heck, I don't remember why I shoot them loads, who cares, them ain't MY steel targets I gotta fix after they get dented, oh yeah, because that's the way I ALWAYS Loaded them.) There's a few shoot them teeny loads but mostly I remember lotsa CLANG from rifles. (Hmmm, maybe I'm hallucinating bout THAT too. Where's them pills.... )

 

Contentious how? Contentious like this: I agree that that the handi rifle is ugly, but as the handy rifle is not a copy of any 19th century gun, to what "original" rifle do you refer (or compare)? In fact, friends and neighbors, the handy rifle is a shining example of what is wrong with SASS. Its a piece of purely modern equipment wrapped in pseudo history by people looking for a competitive edge. As such, It, and its ejector, should be banned from use in the plainsman class.

 

How is that for controversy?

 

As for the low wall, I am more of a rifle cal guy, but you could probably shoot it in plainsman without trouble, at least in local matches. You might get some complaints at a big match.

 

Pseudo-history? Competitive edge? Phooey!

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Thanks for the pictures, Goody. I saw that link and thought it would be a drilling. I should have looked.

 

Doc Coles, can you look at those pictures (especially fourth from the left, top row) and still say the handi-rifle isn't a replica of anything?

 

Nasty Newt

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Ah the same old chestnuts, which come up every time this topic comes around on the wire. So, here we go.

 

The handy rifle is not a copy of the Frank Wesson. The Frank Wesson tip-ups look like they have two triggers and came only in small rimfire calibers. Wesson did make big rifles, but they were all falling blocks.

 

Its not a copy of the Smith or the Maynard (which are mechanically totally different).

 

It might look like a Wurfflein but, it has a different locking mechanism and the Wurfflein lacked an ejector (which, along with low price, seems to be the key feature that makes the Handi Rifle so attractive to cowboy shooters). The differences are enough that the NRA allows the Wurfllein rifle in BPCR competition but bans the Handi Rifle.

 

The best that can be said for the Handi Rifle is that it is as authentic to the 19th century as a Henry Big Boy. Meaning that its a purely modern creation with some features similar to guns used in the 19th century that has been falsely promoted as historic by a manufacturer more interested in sales than honesty. However, saying something is historic does not make it so.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

I assume this opinion pertains to transfer bar revolvers as well. After all, the mechanism isn't the same. Chestnuts is chestnuts.

[Harvey Mushman]

Wow, a simple question I asked (I thought) - and an interesting thread semi-hijack followed!

 

OK, since that seems to be the trend, I'll wade in (on the bigger "Plainsman" issue recognizing that I've already learned a lot from all the responses).

 

FWIW, if I had been able to purchase the Low Wall a few hours after I asked the question here (thanks again PWB, the timing was my fault), I'd have shot 38 Special or 38 Long colt (13 thou trimmed), but not 357, out of my sense of tradition. I think I said essentially that in my third post.

 

Here is how I see the relevant classes in MY mind (forgetting the Shotgun for the moment):

Frontiersman is for percussion revolvers and period LEVER rifle pistol caliber BP loaded cartridges (we all know what rifles that comprises) in an ACTION/TIMING based format.

Plainsman is for percussion revolvers and SINGLE SHOT period rifles in either Rifle or Pistol BP caliber (that comprises a very wide variety of rifles and calibers from low wall to Sharps, etc, and gets a whole new set of rifles brought to the dance). This rule allows the maximum amount of different historic arms to be brought out to compete in an ACTION/TIMING based format.

The long range rifle side match is for a limited 100+ yards competition in SASS with RIFLE calibers (recognizing others do dedicated long range far beyond what SASS intends).

 

Regarding Plainsman target placement, I think I fall closer to Capt Baylor's view, and that is supported by my seeing a few of those matches that generated my interest in it and my delineation above. Our club seems to do Plainsman targets about 20-30 yards with an occasional shot or two out at 70 yards (BIG target) or so (I really like the variety and challenge!).

 

A bit of philosophy to follow:

 

We (SASS) are just a little schizophrenic in that we are trying to both: 1) replicate history (both real history OR Hollywood's cinematic version), AND 2) have a highly competitive, timed firearms competition. Most of us find ourselves toward one end or the other of these two objectives, or at least, some mixture of these priorities.

To me, one of the purposes in the first objective should be to have the maximum VARIETY of historical equipment (read: different GUNS), dress and persona out there for us and others to see - I see Plainsman that way, as currently written wrt rifles, even if I don't agree with some of the liberties.

The second objective drives those of us who are more competitive towards the "gamer" end of the continuum. My experience is that wherever you draw the rules line, the most competitive folks will push it (and the $$ and MORE important, the practice time) and always escalate it!!!! The only way to eliminate this would be to stop timing.

 

The truth is that both objectives can live together and do so happily in SASS as the vast majority of us realize we are not going to beat BB, and strive to be the best against ourselves and our friends - lot's chose 7 1/2 inch 45s with max loads or 92's, etc.... The most competitive live with us and are influenced by us to the "cowboy way". I'm pretty happy with what I see in SASS after nearly two years here.

 

Darn, I must have had one more tonight than I intended, but that's the shortened view (of a long subject) from my saddle...

 

May all of us have a safe, prosperous and Happy New Year!!!!

 

Harvey

[Dubious Don #56333]

Wow, a simple question I asked (I thought) - and an interesting thread semi-hijack followed!

 

OK, since that seems to be the trend, I'll wade in (on the bigger "Plainsman" issue recognizing that I've already learned a lot from all the responses).

 

A worthy post Mr. Harvey and right on point. Don't be concerned with the "hijackers", there are some on the Wire that have an ax to grind. Don't concern yourself too much; I'm sure you can see by some posts that logic and common sense are slightly lacking. Nuff said on that. The Wire is not mainstream SASS; things are a bit different on the range.

 

FWIW, if I had been able to purchase the Low Wall a few hours after I asked the question here (thanks again PWB, the timing was my fault), I'd have shot 38 Special or 38 Long colt (13 thou trimmed), but not 357, out of my sense of tradition. I think I said essentially that in my third post.

 

If I had a nickel for every gun I let get away because I dallied, I'd be listed in Forbes top ten!

 

Here is how I see the relevant classes in MY mind (forgetting the Shotgun for the moment):

Frontiersman is for percussion revolvers and period LEVER rifle pistol caliber BP loaded cartridges (we all know what rifles that comprises) in an ACTION/TIMING based format.

Plainsman is for percussion revolvers and SINGLE SHOT period rifles in either Rifle or Pistol BP caliber (that comprises a very wide variety of rifles and calibers from low wall to Sharps, etc, and gets a whole new set of rifles brought to the dance). This rule allows the maximum amount of different historic arms to be brought out to compete in an ACTION/TIMING based format.

 

Hit the nail on the head with that one!

 

The long range rifle side match is for a limited 100+ yards competition in SASS with RIFLE calibers (recognizing others do dedicated long range far beyond what SASS intends).

 

Pistol/pistol caliber rifle is often 100 yards. Lots of ranges, 100 yards is all they have so they use slightly smaller targets at that range for the single shot rifle caliber. 200-300 yards seems more the norm for long range single shot, I remember one year at a "big match" they surprised the competitors with targets out to 500 yards. People were not happy! Not because they were "too far" but because (I think) most do not have the luxury of engaging targets at these distances on their home ranges and were thus unprepared. While certainly challenging, it wasn't fun for those competitors who found themselves in over their heads. There is a lesson in there for those who take the time to notice.

 

Regarding Plainsman target placement, I think I fall closer to Capt Baylor's view, and that is supported by my seeing a few of those matches that generated my interest in it and my delineation above. Our club seems to do Plainsman targets about 20-30 yards with an occasional shot or two out at 70 yards (BIG target) or so (I really like the variety and challenge!).

 

A bit of philosophy to follow:

 

We (SASS) are just a little schizophrenic in that we are trying to both: 1) replicate history (both real history OR Hollywood's cinematic version), AND 2) have a highly competitive, timed firearms competition. Most of us find ourselves toward one end or the other of these two objectives, or at least, some mixture of these priorities.

To me, one of the purposes in the first objective should be to have the maximum VARIETY of historical equipment (read: different GUNS), dress and persona out there for us and others to see - I see Plainsman that way, as currently written wrt rifles, even if I don't agree with some of the liberties.

The second objective drives those of us who are more competitive towards the "gamer" end of the continuum. My experience is that wherever you draw the rules line, the most competitive folks will push it (and the $$ and MORE important, the practice time) and always escalate it!!!! The only way to eliminate this would be to stop timing.

 

The truth is that both objectives can live together and do so happily in SASS as the vast majority of us realize we are not going to beat BB, and strive to be the best against ourselves and our friends - lot's chose 7 1/2 inch 45s with max loads or 92's, etc.... The most competitive live with us and are influenced by us to the "cowboy way". I'm pretty happy with what I see in SASS after nearly two years here.

 

An EXCELLENT statement!!

 

Darn, I must have had one more tonight than I intended, but that's the shortened view (of a long subject) from my saddle...

 

May all of us have a safe, prosperous and Happy New Year!!!!

 

Harvey

[Dubious Don #56333]

Ah the same old chestnuts, which come up every time this topic comes around on the wire. So, here we go.

 

The handy rifle is not a copy of the Frank Wesson. The Frank Wesson tip-ups look like they have two triggers and came only in small rimfire calibers. Wesson did make big rifles, but they were all falling blocks.

 

Its not a copy of the Smith or the Maynard (which are mechanically totally different).

 

It might look like a Wurfflein but, it has a different locking mechanism and the Wurfflein lacked an ejector (which, along with low price, seems to be the key feature that makes the Handi Rifle so attractive to cowboy shooters).

 

I suppose it wasn't a convienent oversight on your part that you forgot to mention that H&R was building these in the 1800's? Or that these firearms share common traits that anyone who can read a patent drawing can see?

 

The differences are enough that the NRA allows the Wurfllein rifle in BPCR competition but bans the Handi Rifle.

 

BPCR is an amazing competition. Some of my friends participate in various forms of long range competitions with modern scoped rifles and modern ammunition and are quite amazed that 100+ year old technology (in the hands of a marksman who knows how to load proper BP ammunition) can be just as accurate.

 

SASS ain't BPCR which is about as exciting for spectators as watching paint dry. So what the H&R isn't allowed in BPCR? Doesn't have anything to do with anything.

 

The best that can be said for the Handi Rifle is that it is as authentic to the 19th century as a Henry Big Boy. Meaning that its a purely modern creation with some features similar to guns used in the 19th century that has been falsely promoted as historic by a manufacturer more interested in sales than honesty. However, saying something is historic does not make it so.

 

Lucky for you Marlin and Henry cares not one whit about your opinion lest they sue you for libel. (Marlin being the current owner of H&R/New England Firearms line) My goodness, such travesties of the American gunmaking art must not be allowed to co-exist with "real" firearms of the old west lest they infect us all with their cooties!

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

It might look like a Wurfflein but, it has a different locking mechanism and the Wurfflein lacked an ejector (which, along with low price, seems to be the key feature that makes the Handi Rifle so attractive to cowboy shooters).

 

I suppose it wasn't a convienent oversight on your part that you forgot to mention that H&R was building these in the 1800's? Or that these firearms share common traits that anyone who can read a patent drawing can see?

Really? Prove it. Please provide a period picture, production records or an original example of an H&R tip up big-bore rifle produced in the 19th century. Such a creature dose not appear in any of the standard works on American firearms and I have never seen one in 25 years in the antique gun trade, but hey, I am always glad to learn something new. I will say this, variations of the handy rifle action were produced as shotguns, by a number of manufacturers in the late 19th century, but to the best of my knowledge, no one produced it as a rifle. (slight correction, even the shotguns produced in the 19th century were not the same as the modern H&R. They used a lever thumb release rather than the button type release used by the modern Handi Rifle)

 

 

The differences are enough that the NRA allows the Wurfllein rifle in BPCR competition but bans the Handi Rifle.

 

SASS ain't BPCR which is about as exciting for spectators as watching paint dry. So what the H&R isn't allowed in BPCR? Doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Boy you got me there! After all, I, like most people, got into CAS because of how exciting it would be for the spectators! Sarcasm aside, the reason I mentioned BPCR is that they, unlike SASS, actually have rules about using original or replica guns of the 19th century. As such, their allowing the Wurfflein and banning the Handi Rifle demonstrates that the latter is not in fact a copy of the former. I think that makes a mention of BPCR in this conversation pertinent.

 

 

Look. I know that this is a bee in my bonnet, I have had this conversation on the wire more than a dozen times. I have owned, examined and researched all of the original guns people cite as forefathers to the Handi Rifle. For me, its a pure matter of the mechanics and history, which both show that the Handi Rifle is a modern creation. The funny part is that I think that the Handi Rifle is actually a bright idea and have sold tons of them. They are good, accurate inexpensive rifles. I like the buffalo classic best, though I don't think that the design, especially the cheaper Handi Rifle, is very good looking. The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is H&R's attempt to create a false history for their product and folks willingness to buy into it. But hey, do what you want. If its important to you to believe that its historic, don't let reality get in your way. Just don't try to get me to agree with you.

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

It seems there has always been a difference of opinion as to what is and what should be allowed in the plainsman event. This is what we at the Pine Mt Posse of Bend Oregon have done to try to include everyone interested. We have three categories.

 

Open, exactly as the SASS rule book reads.

 

Traditional , Double barrel shotgun with exposed hammers only, Pistols , no Ruger Old Army, Rifle , no handi rifles

 

Sod Buster May use any SASS legal shotgun . any 6 shot cap and ball pistol, any Sass legal main match rifle (must single

load). You may shoot this category only one year.

 

Ladies Same Categories, same rules with the exception pistols may be shot TWO HANDED.

 

We hope this includes everyone interested in the Plainsman Event and offends no one.

 

 

16 pards turn out to play Plainsman at EOT, and no one thinks we have a problem? Interest in Plainsman has sagged considerably in recent years, and that should be cause for concern.

 

IMHO, a big part of the problem is the handi rifle, and to a lesser degree the ROAs. Most of the folks who shot Plainsman were of a more "traditional" cut. They enjoyed Plainsman because of the challenge of "doing it the way they did back in the day" with cap and ball pistols and big single shot rifles. Hell, half the fun was just making those things work! The increasing use of the handi rifle and ROAs changed the game, and for many of those who formed the "spiritual center" of Plainsman, the soup was spoiled!

 

Now, I am NOT suggesting that handi rifles and ROAs be banned! That would simply be unfair at this point in history, and I am not criticizing any man for his choice of arms as allowed in the rules. However, I do think that separating Plainsman into Traditional and Open/Modern/Eastern whatever, may bring some folks back into the event, and is an idea worth considering. Otherwise, I suspect Plainsman will continue to wither on the vine.

 

PS: Allie, I think you should be able to shoot Plainsman with two hands.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Thanks Grizzly! I know a few other ladies who would shoot if a two-handed grip was allowed.

[Dubious Don #56333]

It might look like a Wurfflein but, it has a different locking mechanism and the Wurfflein lacked an ejector (which, along with low price, seems to be the key feature that makes the Handi Rifle so attractive to cowboy shooters).

 

I suppose it wasn't a convienent oversight on your part that you forgot to mention that H&R was building these in the 1800's? Or that these firearms share common traits that anyone who can read a patent drawing can see?

Really? Prove it. Please provide a period picture, production records or an original example of an H&R tip up big-bore rifle produced in the 19th century. Such a creature dose not appear in any of the standard works on American firearms and I have never seen one in 25 years in the antique gun trade, but hey, I am always glad to learn something new. I will say this, variations of the handy rifle action were produced as shotguns, by a number of manufacturers in the late 19th century, but to the best of my knowledge, no one produced it as a rifle

 

The differences are enough that the NRA allows the Wurfllein rifle in BPCR competition but bans the Handi Rifle.

 

SASS ain't BPCR which is about as exciting for spectators as watching paint dry. So what the H&R isn't allowed in BPCR? Doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Boy you got me there! After all, I, like most people, got into CAS because of how exciting it would be for the spectators! Sarcasm aside, the reason I mentioned BPCR is that they, unlike SASS, actually have rules about using original or replica guns of the 19th century. As such, their allowing the Wurfflein and banning the Handi Rifle demonstrates that the latter is not in fact a copy of the former. I think that makes a mention of BPCR in this conversation pertinent.

 

 

Look. I know that this is a bee in my bonnet, I have had this conversation on the wire more than a dozen times. I have owned, examined and researched all of the original guns people cite as forefathers to the Handi Rifle. For me, its a pure matter of the mechanics and history, which both show that the Handi Rifle is a modern creation. The funny part is that I think that the Handi Rifle is actually a bright idea and have sold tons of them. They are good, accurate inexpensive rifles. I like the buffalo classic best, though I don't think that the design, especially the cheaper Handi Rifle, is very good looking. The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is H&R's attempt to create a false history for their product and folks willingness to buy into it. But hey, do what you want. If its important to you to believe that its historic, don't let reality get in your way. Just don't try to get me to agree with you.

 

 

I bow to your exalted learnedness, Doc. While I am certain you are rightfully proud of your expertness, some of us also have extensive experience in the firearms industry but prefer not to crow about it because it isn't worth the bother to "prove" anything. (I will point out that you made my point far more eloquently than I could have)

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

I bow to your exalted learnedness, Doc. While I am certain you are rightfully proud of your expertness, some of us also have extensive experience in the firearms industry but prefer not to crow about it because it isn't worth the bother to "prove" anything. (I will point out that you made my point far more eloquently than I could have)

 

 

Ah, the old ad hominem attack, don't argue the facts, attack the man. If I am wrong, prove it, or at least back up your own claims with facts; they make this kind of discussion so much more interesting.

[Dubious Don #56333]

16 pards turn out to play Plainsman at EOT, and no one thinks we have a problem? Interest in Plainsman has sagged considerably in recent years, and that should be cause for concern.

 

IMHO, a big part of the problem is the handi rifle, and to a lesser degree the ROAs. Most of the folks who shot Plainsman were of a more "traditional" cut. They enjoyed Plainsman because of the challenge of "doing it the way they did back in the day" with cap and ball pistols and big single shot rifles. Hell, half the fun was just making those things work! The increasing use of the handi rifle and ROAs changed the game, and for many of those who formed the "spiritual center" of Plainsman, the soup was spoiled!

 

Now, I am NOT suggesting that handi rifles and ROAs be banned! That would simply be unfair at this point in history, and I am not criticizing any man for his choice of arms as allowed in the rules. However, I do think that separating Plainsman into Traditional and Open/Modern/Eastern whatever, may bring some folks back into the event, and is an idea worth considering. Otherwise, I suspect Plainsman will continue to wither on the vine.

 

PS: Allie, I think you should be able to shoot Plainsman with two hands.

 

Hold up pard, there are other nefarious forces at work here! Plainsman is typically a side match and competes with "mini-matches", Wild Bunch, long range etcetra. Depending on the match schedule, competitors are sometimes forced to choose between one ot the other but not both. This might explain why EOT had 16 where WR was kind of steady at 25-31. on the other side of the coin we have Wild Bunch at WR which had 75 shooters in FOUR WB catagories. That same year EOT had 69 shooters for three catagories. Hmmm.

 

Plainsman firearms in most cases I would suspect, considering what new/typical shooters use, are different. This represents a significant financial outlay that in tough financial times people are not willing to part with money for guns they will only use a few times a year. On the face this might not pass the WB test BUT, SASS took great care in crafting the MODERN 1911 requirements and these guns were either something most people had or were something they would use for something else other than Wild Bunch.

 

Cap and ball especially, is slow loading and tedious. Perhaps it is the "I want it NOW" generation that perhaps lacks the patience to "learn the old ways". And what is this hoo-raw over ROA's? I shot a pair for a good while, couple of years ago my son in law gave me an 1851 and I liked it so much I bought it a brother! Even worser, I sold my ROA's because them 1851's were liked A LOT better! I just don't see any advantage to ROAS over something else. Getting into plainsman is kinda cheap when you consider the cost of a Pietta something brass frame revolver, H&R (bout the cheepest rifle you'll find) and a double.

 

I don't see taking a group of 16 or even 30 and splitting them up into whatever-catagories makes any kind of sense. I'll leave you with this story drawn from real and recent events at a Plainsman match in a galaxy far, far away...

Draw what conclusions that you will.

Comeptitor A. Serious game face. Spends more time fussing over his guns than he does shooting. LOTS of time fiddling at the loading table making things are just.....perfect. Shoots ROA's (Short barrel, customized, shiny sissy pistols ) Hammerless double. H&R rifle. Tricky holsters. Goes about the match with a demeanor befitting an undertaker with too many bodies in the freezer or perhaps a government man with no one handy to...govern. Doesn't take first. Doesn't look like he had much fun but he's back the next year as always.

 

Competitor B. Dresses authentic. If the whole range of us was whisked back in time he'd be the only one to get left alone cuz he looks so real. (Rest of us drugstore coboys'd git hung) Uses a pair of cap and balls (ain't no ROOGERS either, in authentic holsters. REAL authentic. Carried the way they 'SPOSED to be, not in front of his nether parts like that other feller) Shoots an honest to goodness antiquy shotgun. Ain't no replica here! And his rifle? Some odd old thing from the mid 1870's. Ever-thang is purty correct historically, as best as he kin make it. His times are in the three digits, but he whistles all the time, got his own merry little brass band playing in his head the whole time and he could care less cuz he's still HAVIN FUN!

[BJT]

why not a front stuffer, can't get any plainsier than that.

 

 

At a club I used to ramrod (excuse the expression) we had a category for that. It is fun but at 20+ seconds for reload, it can not keep up with the cartridge gun. Still, one EOT overall winner said something to the effect that " this is great, there are so MANY transitions!!".

 

Fun stuff. We have even done it with muzzle stuffing shotguns, no reloads on the clock, either 2 doubles or take the misses.

 

Cheers,

BJT

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

On this thread and another one running right now there's a great deal of lamentation about how Plainsman & Frontiersman are dying categories. A couple of things could be done to revive interest, but not all of them are within the power of SASS to remedy.

 

The biggest obstacle is finding a suitable rifle. The H&R site doesn't list any of the Handi-Rifles in a pistol caliber, and I think we have to agree that 45-70 (even loaded waaaay down) is too much gun for a regular match. The smallest "period" caliber is 30-30, and it's not allowed. The only other option is the Little Sharps, but with a list price of around $900+ nobody is willing to pony up that much cash when a Handi can be had for around $250.

 

They're percieved as "slow" categories. With an emphasis on speed in the game, using a single shot rifle is leisurely in comparison to someone shooting a short stroked lever gun.

 

Not everyone wants to, or can, shoot duelist style. Not everyone wants to shoot BP.

 

Can't do much about changing the speed perception or the price of rifles, but modifying the rules to allow the 30-30, smokeless powder, and two-handed gripping might have an impact on keeping the basic category idea alive.

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

On this thread and another one running right now there's a great deal of lamentation about how Plainsman & Frontiersman are dying categories. A couple of things could be done to revive interest, but not all of them are within the power of SASS to remedy.

 

The biggest obstacle is finding a suitable rifle. The H&R site doesn't list any of the Handi-Rifles in a pistol caliber, and I think we have to agree that 45-70 (even loaded waaaay down) is too much gun for a regular match. The smallest "period" caliber is 30-30, and it's not allowed. The only other option is the Little Sharps, but with a list price of around $900+ nobody is willing to pony up that much cash when a Handi can be had for around $250.

 

They're percieved as "slow" categories. With an emphasis on speed in the game, using a single shot rifle is leisurely in comparison to someone shooting a short stroked lever gun.

Not everyone wants to, or can, shoot duelist style. Not everyone wants to shoot BP.

Can't do much about changing the speed perception or the price of rifles, but modifying the rules to allow the 30-30, smokeless powder, and two-handed gripping might have an impact on keeping the basic category idea alive.

 

 

Captain, I really don't think Plainsman is your cup of tea!

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

Hold up pard, there are other nefarious forces at work here! Plainsman is typically a side match and competes with "mini-matches", Wild Bunch, long range etcetra. Depending on the match schedule, competitors are sometimes forced to choose between one ot the other but not both. This might explain why EOT had 16 where WR was kind of steady at 25-31. on the other side of the coin we have Wild Bunch at WR which had 75 shooters in FOUR WB catagories. That same year EOT had 69 shooters for three catagories. Hmmm.

 

See ya at WR, Don.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Buffalo Classic in 45 LC

 

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.asp

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Captain, I really don't think Plainsman is your cup of tea!

 

Au contraire, Grizz. I've been shooting FCD for a couple of years now and think it's a hoot. I personally think the boom and choking clouds of smoke are the only way to play this game. Plus it appeals to the historian in me as "that's the way it was". Plainsman or Frontiersman would give me good reason to use a couple of the 1860's I have, as well as adding another cool rifle to the collection.

 

The point I was trying to make is that shooting at a more relaxed pace, or a slower and more deliberate pace, might have some appeal to more shooters but they're turned off by the prospect of using BP or a sub. Pity really - the cleanup is no more involved than smokeless, you just use a different cleaning fluid. And right now finding a suitable rifle is both problematic and expensive.

 

All the arguments about the Handi not being historically correct aside, right now they're not making them in a proper pistol caliber. Considering that the baby Sharps costs more than a '92 or danged close to a '73, a new shooter on the typical starter shoestring budget would have to be completely dedicated to the category to justify the expense.

 

The other objections were all gleaned from another thread, so I disclaim all responsibility for them - just passing them along.

 

SASS has tried to cast a wide net in order to appeal to as many shooters and their disciplines as possible. If we can save an existing one by being just a bit flexible, I'd say that would be a good move.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

On this thread and another one running right now there's a great deal of lamentation about how Plainsman & Frontiersman are dying categories. A couple of things could be done to revive interest, but not all of them are within the power of SASS to remedy.

 

The biggest obstacle is finding a suitable rifle. The H&R site doesn't list any of the Handi-Rifles in a pistol caliber, and I think we have to agree that 45-70 (even loaded waaaay down) is too much gun for a regular match. The smallest "period" caliber is 30-30, and it's not allowed. The only other option is the Little Sharps, but with a list price of around $900+ nobody is willing to pony up that much cash when a Handi can be had for around $250.

 

They're percieved as "slow" categories. With an emphasis on speed in the game, using a single shot rifle is leisurely in comparison to someone shooting a short stroked lever gun.

Not everyone wants to, or can, shoot duelist style. Not everyone wants to shoot BP.

 

Can't do much about changing the speed perception or the price of rifles, but modifying the rules to allow the 30-30, smokeless powder, and two-handed gripping might have an impact on keeping the basic category idea alive.

 

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're stating, or you are confusing two separate events. Frontiersman is a Main Match category. Plainsman in a Side Match event. It is not a category. Two different events, two different birds. Being a Main Match category, someone shooting Frontiersman must have a lever-action rifle or carbine in an appropriate pistol caliber. That long gun could not be used in the Plainsman Side Match even, which requires a single-shot rifle. BTW, I don't know of a manufacturer of a single-shot in .30-30, but I'm not claiming to be an expert. Does one exist? If it doesn't, then your proposal to allow .30-30 is not valid on its face.

 

I agree change can be good. It can be for the better to increase participation in what seems to be a weak event. However, radically changing Plainsman to include smokeless propellants, in my opinion, would be contrary to what Plainsman is all about.

 

Steeldust Dan

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Dan -

 

From The Handbook, you can see how Frontiersman feeds into Plainsman ...

 

FRONTIERSMAN

• Any Main Match percussion revolver with non-adjustable sights (Note exceptions listed re: dovetailed sights). (Exception: The 1873 Uberti percussion revolver is not allowed. )

• Revolvers must be shot duelist or double duelist style. See Duelist description for required shooting technique.

• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).

• Must use a side-by-side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages.

• Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable. ====> Doesn't have to be a repeater. See below.

 

THE PLAINSMAN

This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Frontiersman Category style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style.

• Must use a SASS–legal single-shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge (e.g., not a .30-30). The rifle may have spring actuated ejectors if they are standard for that rifle.

• Must use a side by side, with or without exposed hammers or lever action shotgun.

• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).

 

So if you have a single shot in a pistol caliber, you can shoot it in both. Seen it done.

 

Handi Rifle in 30-30: http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=72510 at $308.

 

And the same gun in 45 Colt: http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default...?item=cr%2D45lc at $470.

 

Depending on how good you are at wrangling a deal you could probably get one for less, and I have seen them discounted up to 35% off MSRP. I'll let you do the math.

 

Like I said in my other post, the points raised are a condensed version gleaned from other posts. See #57 for details. Some folks think it would be fun to try, but shooting one-handed, using percussion pistols, and using BP seem to be the contentious points.

[Kougarok George]

'

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Which would be more suited to your average Plainsman Event

 

HR CR-45 LC or The CR1871 45/70 loaded down with a 200 - 250 grain bullet sub 1400 FPS? (assuming legal sights)

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Captain Woodrow,

 

Thank you for the information about single-shot rifles. Did not know that, so thanks. However, your posting of the Frontiersman category rules is incorrect, or your additional comment is, whichever it is. See quote below, from Shooter's Handbook:

 

RIFLE REQUIREMENTS

Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever

or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899,

incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer.

 

How is it we both quote the Shooter's Handbook and come up with two very different definitions of Frontiersman?

 

Steeldust Dan

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Howdy Dan -

From The Handbook, you can see how Frontiersman feeds into Plainsman ...

 

FRONTIERSMAN

• Any Main Match percussion revolver with non-adjustable sights (Note exceptions listed re: dovetailed sights). (Exception: The 1873 Uberti percussion revolver is not allowed. )

• Revolvers must be shot duelist or double duelist style. See Duelist description for required shooting technique.

• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).

• Must use a side-by-side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages.

• Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable. ====>

Doesn't have to be a repeater. YES it does. See below SHB p.9.

 

THE PLAINSMAN

This event requires two .36 caliber or larger Frontiersman Category style percussion revolvers, shot Duelist style.

• Must use a SASS–legal single-shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge (e.g., not a .30-30). The rifle may have spring actuated ejectors if they are standard for that rifle.

• Must use a side by side, with or without exposed hammers or lever action shotgun.

• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).

 

So if you have a single shot in a pistol caliber, you can shoot it in both. Seen it done.

Not "legally"...(see Steeldust Dan's post #62 for the quoted regs for MAIN & TEAM match firearms)...Plainsman is a SIDEMATCH with specific (separate) rules & regulations.

...

Like I said in my other post, the points raised are a condensed version gleaned from other posts. See #57 for details. Some folks think it would be fun to try, but

shooting one-handed, using percussion pistols, and using BP seem to be the contentious points.

The solution (IMO) would be to set up a separate sidematch allowing two-handed shooting of cartridge pistols & single-shot rifles using smokeless powder...just call it something other than "PLAINSMAN".

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Dan & Pale Wolf -

 

I think that part of the different interpretation here comes from the wording in the category description, and it's obviously tripped up not only myself and others as well.

 

In other categories under the rifle description in The Handbook it clearly states the rifle must be a main match rifle (and a definition is elsewhere) or it states specific model requirements based on what the category is. In the category under discussion it says is "Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable", and that's where the wheels fall off.

 

The way it's phrased could be interpreted to mean that since A the Handi Rifle is a legal SASS rifle, and if it's in a B legal pistol caliber, then we get C it's OK to use in this category. A + B = C. And I think that's how some have read it. So we don't have a different definition of the category, just a difference on a fine point.

 

I think Pale Wolf has come up with a very workable solution to part of this conundrum. I don't know what you'd call it, but the proposed parameters could work for both a main category as well as a sidematch. Just leave it up to the discretion of the local MD's and see what happens.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Just ordered the CR 45LC from CDNN @ 229 plus 17 shipping

Can get the 32 in 45/70 barrel complete with sights for 183. Brings essentially 2 rifles in for little more than the average price on the net for just the 45/70.

 

BTW since 2005 according to the HR parts guy I spoke with today, the Handi Rifle 45 Colt and 45/70 have come with extractors vs ejectors. Something about stuck cartridges and the positive caming vs the spring.

 

Now depending on the senario I can go long range or short. I actually have a 98 Krag Rear Sight laying around somewhere. Probably quicker to buy another than figure out the safe place I stored it.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Capt. Dan -

 

I found a shop nearby that has them for about the same price. And this Friday is payday too ... hmmmm. Wonder where I'll be this weekend?

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Pale wolf

Would 32 winchester special be allowed in Plainsman. Have seen what are reputed to be "period" winchester adds claiming the 32 Special is suitable for reloading with black powder and the 1 in 20 twist would rule in its favor.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Got the CR 45LC today. Need Brass, Bullets, BP or Sub and hit the range.

 

Anybody shooting Bear Creek Moly Bullets with homemade BP lube?

[William Waddy]

One little suggestion for all you other gamers shooting hand-rifles with ejectors. If you rub a little bp lube on the brass cartridges they will always eject nicely - never stick. It seems pretty common for cartridges to stick and not eject from handi-rifles, especially for those using bp subs with smokeless lube on the bullets - the things are just too dry. A little good bp lube on those cartridges and things will go better for you.

 

I love my hand-rifle and I love my ROA's. I understand the guy that almost always win Plainsman at Winter Range (and perhaps EOT) uses tricked-out Colts. I've also seen people operate low-walls as fast or faster than the best hand-rifle shooters. Oh, I usually shoot full load bp 45-70 in my gamer handi-rifle (400g pills) - i feel it gives me an advantage.

 

Allie - sorry, but I would not let you shoot two-handed in my plainsman event UNLESS I put you in a different category. Last time I did plainsman I had a lady beg to shoot two-handed - said she could not shoot duelist. She seemed harmless to me so I allowed it. Next thing I knew she was pounding out those pistol shots like she was Duece Stevens and I knew I had just made things very unfair for the other lady shooters who cowboy'd up and were shooting duelist. Another category - OK, but not competing against those shooting duelist.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

One little suggestion for all you other gamers shooting hand-rifles with ejectors. If you rub a little bp lube on the brass cartridges they will always eject nicely - never stick. It seems pretty common for cartridges to stick and not eject from handi-rifles, especially for those using bp subs with smokeless lube on the bullets - the things are just too dry. A little good bp lube on those cartridges and things will go better for you.

 

I love my hand-rifle and I love my ROA's. I understand the guy that almost always win Plainsman at Winter Range (and perhaps EOT) uses tricked-out Colts. I've also seen people operate low-walls as fast or faster than the best hand-rifle shooters. Oh, I usually shoot full load bp 45-70 in my gamer handi-rifle (400g pills) - i feel it gives me an advantage.

 

Allie - sorry, but I would not let you shoot two-handed in my plainsman event UNLESS I put you in a different category. Last time I did plainsman I had a lady beg to shoot two-handed - said she could not shoot duelist. She seemed harmless to me so I allowed it. Next thing I knew she was pounding out those pistol shots like she was Duece Stevens and I knew I had just made things very unfair for the other lady shooters who cowboy'd up and were shooting duelist. Another category - OK, but not competing against those shooting duelist.

 

Not really being a gamer as I am timed with either an hour glass or a calendar, There were about 1100 reasons why I got the handy rifle. Mine came with an extractor so I probably don't need to lube the shells. The handi does let me into the game for a whole lot less than an Italian sharps.