Exit wound or internal damage

[Barterin Bill]

I used to use 158gr SJHP as self defense rounds in a .357. In my opinion that is a great self defense round, but if you were to hunt with a .357 would it be that great. I'm sure there would be a lot of internal damage on a deer sized animal out to about 100 yds, but would there be an exit wound to leave a blood trail? A deer doesn't have to travel very far to be lost after a shot if you don't have blood to follow. Would a 158gr JHP be better, or maybe not a HP at all. I wouldn't normally hunt deer with my .357, but I know a lot of people used to, even from a pistol and any deer I shoot at my house would be 50 yds or less, so I was thinking about taking 1 with my 92.

[Blue Steel Duke]

I asked the same question a few months back, as I was using my .45 Henry, and the majority recommended a JHP of some sort, but shot placement was the most important factor. The through and through is certainly a help in tracking, but a well placed shot with internal damage will cut down on the run yardage. Buffalo Bore has a couple of great rounds, with one of their .45's being a 320 grain JSP moving at 1500 fps!

 

BSD

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

I've shot several deer wid a 180 SJHP from a mod 29 44, don't recall any exit wounds all were shot in lung area. Dont remember one going over 20-30 yds. Same happens with a 22-250 and a 52 grn HP no exit 20-30. My 300 win 165 grn ballistic tip shot in tha same area most of tha time tends ta need a trail as they go 40-150 yds with a 100% exit hole unless held high shoulder which will stop everything right there. If it were me id' probably load a 357 wid a lighter faster bullet (158) for shots under 50 yds and i'd bet you can toss a rock on where it falls. All tha power in tha world dumped into tha ground on tha other side ain't worth a whole lot and in cali forn ie they would prolly fine ye fer leavin sumpin discarded into mother earth. I think you'll be fine wid any HP pushed hard outa a 357.

 

Good Luck

RRR

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

You have to be careful about the type of Hollow Point you use. Penetration is key when shooting game. A hollow point designed for defense will expand too quickly for deep penetration on game animals. When I hunted exclusively with a hand gun, I preferred a 265 grain cast Kieth style semi-wad cutter in my .45 which gave good penetration and lots of tissue damage. At the time, no one was doing much with the bigger cast bullets or I would have used them.

 

Coffinmaker

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pards,

The old mountain men (or maybe it was the buffalo hunters) used to say, "Ya gotta tetch the life!" This means, of course, that you need to disrupt the function of vital organs, either by destroying them or at least producing shock that disrupts oxygen to the brain.

 

Defensive loads are NOT intended to KILL; they are intended to STOP a purp, i.e., put him out of action so that he/she cannot injure or kill YOU! Yes, this is accomplished by similar shock to the central nervous system as to be used on game. But, except for winter clothing, humans don't have relatively thick hide to go through to reach the "boiler room".

 

Expanding point bullets from a high-velocity rifle bullet that expands on impact create a larger temporary and permanent wound channel, and also transmit significant hydrodynamic shock to the target.

 

Handgun bullets, on the other hand, even some of the magnum loads, seldom get into the same shock regime. At the more common lower velocities from handguns, the expansion factor is much less of a factor than the ability to penetrate into vital organs. Therefore, you need bullets that will not disintegrate on impact with the hide, and will penetrate to vital organs of a deer or other critter. Shot placement, therefore, is also critical...and more difficult with a handgun than with a rifle.

 

The heavier bullet, 158 grain in the example you have asked about, is probably the best choice. There are so many manufacurers putting out handgun bullets for different purposes that I won't name them, but I'd suggest you contact the manufacturers and find out what they recommend.

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[G. P. Cobb]

Here is the advice I got and I used. Head shot only. Qucik clean kill. If you miss there is no suffering, nothing to follow. It's all about shot placement. I think most LEO's agree with that. Hence the double tap, the second shot is.............

[G. I. Tarpicker, SASS #998]

I use a 240 grain JSP in my M-92 .44 Mag. with good penetration and expansion with Elmer Keith's 2400 load on the local white tails at 100 yds. or less. -- GIT

[Madd Mike #8595]

on a steel target with jacketed bullits

 

its bout the same

 

weld and grind

weld and grind

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Your 158 gr SJHP is a wonderful round for hunting deer sized game. The terminal ballistics show around a 19" penetration rate which is perfect for close range hunting. A 180 might even be better

 

Self defense ammunition for a .357 magnum has gone away from 158 grain bullets over the last few years for a few reasons. The most popular .357 self defense and carry round at the moment is the Speer Gold Dot 125 gr jacketed HP. The Winchester Ranger and Hydro Shok are close seconds. Most LEOs I know carry Speer Gold Dot 38 Special +P's for an off duty round if they live in a city.

 

1) 19" of penetration generally means less dynamic shock since the bullet takes longer to mushroom

 

2) 19" of penetration generally means there will be a loose bullet that still has enough energy to go through a exterior wall and can be potentially deadly to anyone in the flight path.

 

3) A lighter 125-135 gr bullet makes for more dynamic/hydraulic shock for a quicker stop on a perp

 

The .357 magnum is still the #1, one shot stop round available with 89+% success. The .40 S&W is next on the list with a fraction of a % less success based on actual police shooting statistics. Anything larger, the percentage goes down expontentially do to largely in part to over penetration.

[Christopher Carson]

I used to use 158gr SJHP as self defense rounds in a .357. In my opinion that is a great self defense round, but if you were to hunt with a .357 would it be that great. I'm sure there would be a lot of internal damage on a deer sized animal out to about 100 yds, but would there be an exit wound to leave a blood trail? A deer doesn't have to travel very far to be lost after a shot if you don't have blood to follow. Would a 158gr JHP be better, or maybe not a HP at all. I wouldn't normally hunt deer with my .357, but I know a lot of people used to, even from a pistol and any deer I shoot at my house would be 50 yds or less, so I was thinking about taking 1 with my 92.

 

Depending on how big your whitetail deer are down there...

 

And assuming good shot placement...

 

I think with a rifle within 50 yards or so, you can get both with a little experimentation. Probably one or more of the 158-gran JHP or 180-grain JHPs at rifle velocities oughta get you there.

 

IME, really hard cast lead bullets (~20-22 BHN) at moderate handgun velocities will simply shoot straight through most whitetail, which are both thin-skinned and relatively slightly built. Moderately hard cast lead bullets (~15 BHN?) might do better, but I haven't tried that.

 

-Chris

[Texas Man]

I also used the cast Lyman Keith design 265 grain semiwadcutter over a hot load of Unique powder. Under a 100 yards it would leave a fist sized exit hole and a lot of blood but I always had one shot kills with it on deer up to 200 pounds. As a defence load it has always been a deadly one shot killer when the bullet was placed right. I have seen in person the 45 Colt and the 45 ACP both used in gun fights and when a shot is placed right they both will work well and in most caces take the man out of the fight. I did watch as a drugged up fighting hombre took five 45 auto slugs dead center in the chest and never showed a sign of knowing he was hit and alread a dead man till the sixth45 slug took off the top of his head from a almost contract head shot just up from between his eyes.

The old Texas ranger Bob Snow who later became a goverment trapper had me load up some hot 265 grain Keith 45 Colts for him and they were cast from wheel weigths and with an encounter with a Russian Boar He placed a shot in the shoulder of the 650 pound boar and he went down but come back up follwed by a shot in the other shoulder with the same results and the final 45 colt slug took the bore down for good with a behind shot as he was running away. The first tow slugs had expanded the the size of a silver dollar but had failed to enter the boars insides. Bob later used a Colt Commander with 230 grain solid nose bullets and swore by it.

 

Back to the 45 Colt and the factory 250 grain semipointed factory loads. That design would penitrate well but I never personally liked it. I watched as a large hombre took a hit in a fight where the bullet hit a large brass belt buckel blowing a large hole in the center and throught the thick leather belt under it and went on to go thought a leather jacked and shirt and exited out his back and on to the secound hombre in the side and coming out the other side to embed in a adobe wall. Both died tight there with latge exit wounds and matter blow out on the floor and wall. This was a Western factory 45 colt semipointed bullet.

 

I have a best friend who carries a Marlin older 357 in his truck on his ranches and he loads with factory heavy jacket 158 I think loads and I know he has killed well close to 1000 whitetails with the 357 over the years with this gun. But once again bullet placement is the most important of all.

 

I used solids in my 470 nitro on African elephant and African buffalo and also with the 460 Weatherby and they all went down with one shot kills. I intend to use hand cast lead bullets on my upcoming hunt for American Bison in My orginal 44-90 Sharps as well.

Your Pard, Texas Man

[Madd Mike #8595]

Vitally hit BULL elk can do amazing things and travel amazing distances on just willpower and adrenaline.[/

hunting many different wilderness areas, under alot of different circumstances

I have been totally blown away at

bull elk, with great shot placement, internal damage and exit woulds

large mature Bucks can do the same

 

they can turn into

watch the cops channel "crook on crack" in their own neighborhood

 

sure they will die

but maybe not where you can find them, tell you look later for the crows and eagles...................

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Head SHOTS are a very bad Idea I have seen lots of these results ,,,,,,,, broken jaws ,,,, left to starve animals ,,, that were thought to be missed !!!

 

Animals with shot up noses ,,,, cracked and infected shulls ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

As a retired Outfitter I could tell about many of these animals and their suffering ....

 

Anyone taking a headshot in my Camps was not welcome back ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Madd Mike #8595]

Head SHOTS are a very bad Idea I have seen lots of these results ,,,,,,,, broken jaws ,,,, left to starve animals ,,, that were thought to be missed !!!

 

Animals with shot up noses ,,,, cracked and infected shulls ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

As a retired Outfitter I could tell about many of these animals and their suffering ....

 

Anyone taking a headshot in my Camps was not welcome back ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

hEAD shots for the most part

is

showing off

 

history channel may not be the most accurate

but I think they promote

snipper, mase of body shots FIRST

OVER, bull headed bull elk shots

 

I am sure that I will be proved wrong as

I am in

CVZ mode

[Doc McGee, SASS #51213]

Jabez,

 

Couldn't agree with you more. I too, have seen deer take off with part of their jaw hanging after an attempt at a head shot.

 

One such was accomplished by a knucklehead that, when I asked him if he sighted his gun, said," I know where it shoots!" Pity, the buck was probably one of the biggest Montana muley two points I'd ever seen. Beautifully matched rack with heavy long main beams. He turned into coyote or cat meat.

 

But I digress. I have only shot one deer with a head shot, it was close to dark and I really didn't want to drag a deer back to the truck. So I figured I'd put some fear into him. Shot high and still downed him, wasn't much left fer the horns to attach to tho.

 

Body or high shoulder shots are best for me.

 

Doc McGee

[Barterin Bill]

Head SHOTS are a very bad Idea I have seen lots of these results ,,,,,,,, broken jaws ,,,, left to starve animals ,,, that were thought to be missed !!!

 

Animals with shot up noses ,,,, cracked and infected shulls ,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

As a retired Outfitter I could tell about many of these animals and their suffering ....

 

Anyone taking a headshot in my Camps was not welcome back ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

I agree, a deer's brain is not that big and you never know how a bullet will react when it hits bone/skull. I like to get a quartering to shot through the shoulder and into vitals. A head shot on squirrels is another story though.

[Cowboy Junky]

I've shot several deer wid a 180 SJHP from a mod 29 44, don't recall any exit wounds all were shot in lung area. Dont remember one going over 20-30 yds. Same happens with a 22-250 and a 52 grn HP no exit 20-30. My 300 win 165 grn ballistic tip shot in tha same area most of tha time tends ta need a trail as they go 40-150 yds with a 100% exit hole unless held high shoulder which will stop everything right there. If it were me id' probably load a 357 wid a lighter faster bullet (158) for shots under 50 yds and i'd bet you can toss a rock on where it falls. All tha power in tha world dumped into tha ground on tha other side ain't worth a whole lot and in cali forn ie they would prolly fine ye fer leavin sumpin discarded into mother earth. I think you'll be fine wid any HP pushed hard outa a 357.

 

Good Luck

RRR

 

Sounds like good advice RRR. I had a friend (way before I ever knew about SASS) that loved to hunt with a Marlin 357 (rifle). He took several deer every year with but I never asked what bullet he was using but I know it will do it. I bought a 44 mag 1894 because I all ready owned a 44 M29 and I have taken a lot of deer & hogs with that just not the 357.

[seven, #15837]

Having hunted deer with a pistol for many years using a ruger super redhawk with a .44/300 gr.xtp. If you want to drop them like a sack of potatoes the only place to aim is that white patch under their chin (perfect if using a scope, the cross hairs show up very well). Aim thru the center of the neck, taking out the neck is far and away the best way to down a deer. Any body shot is far less efficent. This from experience, not speculation.

 

And btw, never a exit wound.

 

For a .357, I prefer the 240 gr. XTP.

[No Buk Chuck SASS # 24540]

I've only shot a couple whitetails with a pistol. Both were less then 25yds. I used my cowboy lead bullet 158's ruger vaq. with fixed sights. Like Seven I placed both in the white under the chin while they were turned my way. Both fell on there feet with no exit wound. I think placement is everything. I woundn't take that shot unless he was close. I take a rifle for any distance and use shoulder shots. But when he comes close what fun the Ruger is! NBC

[Noz]

There are many lengthy dissertation on this subject. I was a magnum handgunner long before I even was aware there was such a thing as cowboy shooting. Hunting handgunners have discovered that the best killers on any deer, and up, sized game is a hard cast large meplat(flat frontal area of the bullet) heavy for caliber bullet driven at the maximum safe speed for your handgun. This style of bullet will leave an entry and exit wound of about the same size and equal to or up to 3 times larger than the caliber of the bullet depending on the speed at which the bullet is driven. This style of load has the characteristic of, as Elmer Keith said, "You can eat right up to the hole". It has the addition benefit of creating pnemothorax if the bullet is placed through the chest cavity, in that the animals ability to obtain oxygen is compromised. A pictoral image of the wound track of such a bullet is that of a 1"-3" pipe being driven through an animal and then removed. This lets the blood out and air in. It's the equivalent of seeing the oil light come on in your pickup.

The knowledgeable hunters recommend no caliber smaller than .40 in your hunting gun.

An example would be a Freedom Arms .454 with a "Hammerhead" bullet used in Africa. The first round went through a Cape Buffalo side to side. The buffalo was dead, just didn't know it yet so he turned to run. The second bullet hit his near side hip, traveled forward through the body cavity, including the paunch,and exited through the off shoulder. The bull realized he was dead at this point and laid down. Neither bullet was recovered.

[Texas Man]

I have to agree with Seven on neck shots. I was taught to make neck shots from my grandfather who never used anything but a 22 long rifle in solids. He hunted as a professional hunter for years and killed God only knows how many deer in his life. Making the neck shot is not that hard and I have never had to shoot a deer twice after a neck shot.

If I decide to use a head shot I make sure the bullet is placed right and on running animals I still like to use a neck shot and I find it just as eazy as a body shot but much more effective. If the animal is facing away from me I like to place the bullet just under the head in the upper neck.

White tails have this skin and bullet placement is important on any kill.

Texas Man