Proper way to protest?

[Marshal Max Henry]

I am new to the sport and I am trying to make friends not people who dislike me that being said..... at a match iwas called on a procedural when in actuallity i missed. I didnt really care because i didnt know the rules. When i asked they said a miss was 5 sec a Procedural was 10. Now im a little upset but a friend of mine was there and they said dont cause any waves your first match out. In the future how do I go about stating my complaint without seeming like an A$$.

[Red River Ray SASS#33254]

Just read tha rules, tha more ya know tha better off you are. Time in sport doesn't have anything to do with knowing tha rules as theirs a alot ofv low badge #'s that do not know them. Good luck.

 

 

RRR

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

+1

 

Keep a current copy of the rule book in your cart.

[Marshal Max Henry]

Wel I knew the rule quick like i just didnt know how to properly protest.

[Blastmaster]

You can 'nicely' appeal a call (after getting your firearms unloaded, checked out at the Unloading Table and put away) by stating why you think the call is incorrect to the TO. If that doesn't satisfy you, then the TO should take your concerns up to a higher level of authority at the match. All the way to the Match Director. If the TO does not offer that or forgets to, you can suggest you would like to take the call to a higher level. Once the appeal has reached the highest level of authority, an the final call is made, good/bad in your favor, then that is it. The penalty either stands or is removed from your score. You go back to your posse and continue on with the match.

 

I hope that is what you are looking for.

 

I personally never bother with an appeal for a miss, procedure and nearly all safety calls. I've had some real off the wall and very unusual head scratching things happen that has stumped the staff that was taken to other RO's after the match for one of those 'you make the call' discussions.

 

Blastmaster

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

If that happens to a newer shooter, someone isn't doing their job. Benefit always goes to the shooter, and those in charge should make sure that happens. The shooter should be informed. Make yer notes and be the one who steps up for others. Educate yourself, discuss the rules, pull out the book and ask for interpretation.

 

CR

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Are you absolutely sure it was a miss and not a P? If you were in the right and were unfairly awarded a P then I am consternated. That is not the nature of every CAS posse I have ever been on in 15 years. Most folks are more the other way and eager to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. No one I have ever shot with handed out any un-earned Ps. If it happened to you, it is highly unusual. If somehow you fell in with a mob of miscreants, then file that knowledge in your cranium of who not to posse with in the future. That is, if you shoot where you have the luxury of more than one posse.

 

If indeed somehow a noob such as yerself got a P and it stuck when it really was a miss, well that is un-cowboy and just not right. Especially if it was pointed out and not changed. Makes me see red.

[Blastmaster]

Let us kinda analize the situation here .

 

1) new shooter-first match

2) States in post #1 he doesn't know the rules

3) States in post #4 that he does.

 

Well,,,, ok.

 

What my experience as been with 1st time shooters.... and not pointing at the OP at all but in general:

 

1) The are good people

2) They don't know the rules

3) gun handling skill are rusty.. as far as SASS rules/regulations are concerned.. for that matter, everywhere.

4) Numerous procedural/MS penalties are committeed during the course of the first match.... but vast majority are overlooked by the posse cause he is a new shooter. Yep, misses are counted and scored as such. New Shooter understands that.

5) I've yet to see a TO just give a Procedural w/o careful consideration and trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. For that matter, any shooter.

6) New Shooter is amazed at the friendliness of the sport and very enthusiastic at the end of the match.

7) I've yet to see a 1st time shooter (other than this post) ever questioned a call or wanted to appeal/protest a call.

 

 

The question the OP asked is fair and good to know.

 

 

As another thread pointed out.... All this is my opinion... YMMV.

 

Blastmaster

[Noz]

One of the first things I learned in SASS was that a missed call by a spotter or TO is not the end of the world. After the shoot explain your question, accept the answer and go have a beer.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

My first thought is to lay out what happened and let us comment...but on second thought, if you can put your hands on Santa Fe River Stan in private, lay it out to him. He's a reasonable person, he knows the rules and he can explain them well.

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

Blastmaster, that's there is right reasonable.

 

Sometimes a call will be in your favor and sometimes against. It don't really matter and jest have fun.

 

prs

[Marshal Max Henry]

Let us kinda analize the situation here .

 

1) new shooter-first match

2) States in post #1 he doesn't know the rules

3) States in post #4 that he does.

 

Well,,,, ok.

 

What my experience as been with 1st time shooters.... and not pointing at the OP at all but in general:

 

1) The are good people

2) They don't know the rules

3) gun handling skill are rusty.. as far as SASS rules/regulations are concerned.. for that matter, everywhere.

4) Numerous procedural/MS penalties are committeed during the course of the first match.... but vast majority are overlooked by the posse cause he is a new shooter. Yep, misses are counted and scored as such. New Shooter understands that.

5) I've yet to see a TO just give a Procedural w/o careful consideration and trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. For that matter, any shooter.

6) New Shooter is amazed at the friendliness of the sport and very enthusiastic at the end of the match.

7) I've yet to see a 1st time shooter (other than this post) ever questioned a call or wanted to appeal/protest a call.

 

 

The question the OP asked is fair and good to know.

 

 

As another thread pointed out.... All this is my opinion... YMMV.

 

Blastmaster

 

When i said I didnt know the rules I meant I didnt realize the time penalties. When i found out that a P was worse than a miss then it bothered me because I knew I shot the course in correct order i just missed one so it looked like i shot it out of order..

 

And PLease...I am in no way trying to be negative or call anyone out at my Club. They,as i have stated many times, are a wonderful bunch of guys. After the Fact even the RO (Big Guy, shoots BP wish i could remember his name) even said he did not see a P. So i didnt want to be a whiner and said nothing. I just wanted to know that if in the event that it happens again in the future; how would i properly go about doing it and not just saying "Hey This is Bull^&*

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Welcome Pard,

 

Just take the call at the line. After your guns are unloaded, get out your copy of the ROI booklet. All of the calls are in it. Find the applicable rule and take your booklet to the Timer Operator (TO) between shooters and politely show him/her the applicable rule and ask to have your score changed. If that doesn't work, take it to the Posse Marshal (PM).

 

While you are doing this, be sure to listen carefully and with an open mind to what they say to you. We have frequent discussions here on the Wire about calls. Sometimes PaleWolf Brunelle, spokesman for the RO Committee, has to step in and tell us the correct call. In other words, you may be mistaken (or not). If it doesn't go your way, let it go. However, you can bring it here or send PWB a message if you still have doubts. Maybe we can explain it so you understand.

 

Happy shooting!

 

Allie Mo

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

Ask the TO, then the posse marshall, then range master, then the match director. Be polite and exact. That's the normal "chain of command"

Because you are "new", remember their perception of your personality will be based on how you act until they get to know you better.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

After you have unloading your guns, politely ask the RO where was the P. If you are not satisfied with the call take it to the MD. Remember there were three spotters and an RO watching the stage, if there was a mistake usually at least one of them would pick it up. Just ask the RO to explain, we have all had bad calls go both ways. Once the decision has been made accept it and have fun, it's just a game.

 

Shooters HB page 19-20

In the event a competitor feels a range officer’s ruling is in error, the ruling may be politely and immediately appealed to the Range Master/Match Director. The Range Master/Match Director will consider the appeal on grounds of policy and rules interpretation only, and their decision is final.

RO I page 21-22

2. In the event a competitor doesn’t agree with a Range Officer’s final penalty or assessment, the competitor has the right to “politely” request a Supervising Match Official (Range Master or Match Director) to review the call. The Range Officer’s call can be overruled only in the case of a rule or policy interpretation.

RO I page 26

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

• Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct.

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[RB Rooson, SASS #16974]

Noz, is pretty much dead-on with his answer!!

[BrimstoneJerome]

I'm against protesting, but don't know how to show it.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Would the 5 seconds have made a significant difference on where you finished? If not, I would not go beyond saying "I thought I missed that, what was the procedural for?" If the TO and the spotters came back with a reasonable answer, I would drop it. In my experience, I have had more breaks in my favor than bad calls. Learn to take the good with the bad or be prepared to protest when you get an incorrect call in your favor as well (just to keep yourself honest).

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

When i found out that a P was worse than a miss then it bothered me because I knew I shot the course in correct order i just missed one so it looked like i shot it out of order..

 

MMH, I understand that you're trying to learn and I know you're just trying to find out the best approach, but in my opinion, the best thing you could have done is not to even think of it in terms of a "protest." After unloading your guns, just ask someone to explain it to you. You might have gotten a bad call, that happens sometimes and you should know that if it involves a miss, it's unlikely that it will be changed. If it involves a P and during the explanation it becomes clear that someone misunderstood the stage (you or the person(s) calling it), then it will likely be changed.

 

As you are in the game longer, you will begin to understand how many of us wonder how you can say you know the rules, yet you don't know the difference in the penalty for a miss vs. a procedural. Most would consider this basic knowledge of the rules.

 

I honestly don't think the Wire is the place to try to figure this out, but a couple of questions that come to mind are:

Did you perhaps miss it far enough to cause it to hit another target? If so, did you have the opportunity for a clean miss? Do you know about the miss flowchart?

[Marshal Max Henry]

MMH, I understand that you're trying to learn and I know you're just trying to find out the best approach, but in my opinion, the best thing you could have done is not to even think of it in terms of a "protest." After unloading your guns, just ask someone to explain it to you. You might have gotten a bad call, that happens sometimes and you should know that if it involves a miss, it's unlikely that it will be changed. If it involves a P and during the explanation it becomes clear that someone misunderstood the stage (you or the person(s) calling it), then it will likely be changed.

 

As you are in the game longer, you will begin to understand how many of us wonder how you can say you know the rules, yet you don't know the difference in the penalty for a miss vs. a procedural. Most would consider this basic knowledge of the rules.

 

I honestly don't think the Wire is the place to try to figure this out, but a couple of questions that come to mind are:

Did you perhaps miss it far enough to cause it to hit another target? If so, did you have the opportunity for a clean miss? Do you know about the miss flowchart?

Buck what I meant was I understood the course of Fire>

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Unless you're in the running for a big prize, don't worry about it. At this point, consider it a learning experience. Getting to know the rules and those you are shooting with is more important than a bad call. It's not the last one you will ever see.

 

There will be times when you are called for something that you don't agree with. Generally, accept it and move on. If you feel that you got a call that you did not deserve and you feel strongly enough about it that you feel you need to say something, go to the T.O. and ask him to explain what you did wrong. If that does not satisfy you, ask to speak with the Match Director. Calmly explain your side of things, he will then make the final call.

 

Keep your chin up and your hat pulled down. Above all, have fun, don't take it too serious, it's just a game!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Folks have quoted the rules for going up the ladder with questioning the ruling.

 

I recommend starting with a question such as, I thought a miss couldn't cause a procedure?

 

Or, more general, say, I thought I missed. I didn't think I shot it out of order. Could you help me understand the call?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Folks have quoted the rules for going up the ladder with questioning the ruling.

 

I recommend starting with a question such as, I thought a miss couldn't cause a procedure?

 

Or, more general, say, I thought I missed. I didn't think I shot it out of order. Could you help me understand the call?

+1......Proper way to "question" a call.

 

Jefro

[Marshal Max Henry]

Folks have quoted the rules for going up the ladder with questioning the ruling.

 

I recommend starting with a question such as, I thought a miss couldn't cause a procedure?

 

Or, more general, say, I thought I missed. I didn't think I shot it out of order. Could you help me understand the call?

 

 

Much Obliged. This is truly helpful. Thank you Sir.

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

+1

 

Keep a current copy of the rule book in your cart.

 

 

And then, when there is a questionable call, you can politely ask, "Pardon me, but I am new to this game ~ can you show me the rule so I don't make the same mistake again?"

 

If these things happen at a monthly match, I just go home, look it up to find out the correct answer for my own education. If the call was wrong, I might talk it over with the RO involved later, but not argue the scores.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Buck what I meant was I understood the course of Fire>

 

After unloading your guns, just ask someone to explain it to you. You might have gotten a bad call, that happens sometimes and you should know that if it involves a miss, it's unlikely that it will be changed. If it involves a P and during the explanation it becomes clear that someone misunderstood the stage (you or the person(s) calling it), then it will likely be changed.

 

Marauder worded it better.

 

I'm reminded of a situation that occured in 2009 at a match in Georgia in which a gunfighter shot the targets out of sequence. The spotters were baffled and missed it and since I wasn't a spotter, I said nothing. As a favor to the shooter for future situations, in private, I pointed out to him what he had done. He agreed that he had shot the targets in the order described, but he did not agree that it was a P. It absolutely was a P...yet he left thinking I was a nut.

 

In Louisiana in 2009, another gunfighter did the same thing. The spotters called a P, the shooter thought it was an incorrect call and the RO ended up coming to my posse, knowing I am a gunfighter, and asked (without telling me who the shooter was) what the call was. It was a P. In September 2009, here in Alabama, as I finished shooting a stage, the RO says to me, "You just shot a P." My first instinct was that he was kidding, but as he explained what I had done...it dawned on me that I had done just what I had planned to do, but it was wrong. I had shot it exactly like the other two gunfighters had done. If the RO had not caught it, I would have walked away with the spotters AND me being none the wiser. Sometimes when we think we know...we find out that we don't.

 

As I said earlier, if the question had been asked immediately after your guns were unloaded, then whoever was wrong could have it explained to them. This may come off as me assuming that you are wrong, but that is not the case. It could easily have been the spotter(s) or the RO as well. Anybody can make a mistake.

 

Welcome to the game!

[Marshal Max Henry]

Marauder worded it better.

 

I'm reminded of a situation that occured in 2009 at a match in Georgia in which a gunfighter shot the targets out of sequence. The spotters were baffled and missed it and since I wasn't a spotter, I said nothing. As a favor to the shooter for future situations, in private, I pointed out to him what he had done. He agreed that he had shot the targets in the order described, but he did not agree that it was a P. It absolutely was a P...yet he left thinking I was a nut.

 

In Louisiana in 2009, another gunfighter did the same thing. The spotters called a P, the shooter thought it was an incorrect call and the RO ended up coming to my posse, knowing I am a gunfighter, and asked (without telling me who the shooter was) what the call was. It was a P. In September 2009, here in Alabama, as I finished shooting a stage, the RO says to me, "You just shot a P." My first instinct was that he was kidding, but as he explained what I had done...it dawned on me that I had done just what I had planned to do, but it was wrong. I had shot it exactly like the other two gunfighters had done. If the RO had not caught it, I would have walked away with the spotters AND me being none the wiser. Sometimes when we think we know...we find out that we don't.

 

As I said earlier, if the question had been asked immediately after your guns were unloaded, then whoever was wrong could have it explained to them. This may come off as me assuming that you are wrong, but that is not the case. It could easily have been the spotter(s) or the RO as well. Anybody can make mistake.

 

Welcome to the game!

 

 

 

Go figure. I too am a GF lol

[Lou Graham, # 26112]

In a perfect world, the shooter doesn't leave the line confused. The TO should state clearly on any penalty what it is and what it's for. This is especially important with new shooters but it really should be done that way with almost every shooter. (I don't bother with the ones that holler "Dang it!" as the hit the wrong target, they already know)

 

Sample TO Statement:

"I'm sorry, I have to give you a "P" for shooting the rifle targets from left to right as the stage instruction is right to left."

 

If the TO just tells you and the scorekeeper "36.41 and a P" -- it's perfectly OK to ask "What is the P for?" At that point, the TO should tell you so you understand for next time. If you disagree with it, that is when the "appeal" thing kicks in.

[Matthew Duncan]

Why would a cowpoke want to protest?

 

First place ain't no Cadallac don't you know...

[MMJ#89586]

If you video tape your matches could the tape be used to overturn a call?

[Matthew Duncan]

If you video tape your matches could the tape be used to overturn a call?

 

No

[McCandless]

Mad Max,

First, let me welcome you aboard! New shooters to our ranks are much appreciated.

When I was a new shooter I was the victim of some awful calls... I can remember shooting some targets out of order and forgetting to go back and get the two I hadn't shot... I was scored 2 misses and 2 "failures to engage"... that was 70 seconds on top of the 70 or 80 seconds it took me to fumble my way through the stage.

 

I've had misses called when I, and the RO could see dead center shots...

 

I've had a procedural called on me when I didn't have enough shotgun shells left to make a target go down (on a MAY make up stage)...

 

I was scored a procedural for blasting the last shotgun target (a makeup) with both barrels (lots of soot and smoke!!) (I'd do it even if it cost me a procedural!)

 

There's too many others to mention.

 

I don't argue mangled calls at a monthly match... to me they're just fun matches, something to keep "real life" at bay. But if they do get something dreadfully wrong, after doing this for 10yrs, some folks finally listen to me.

 

But, the best solution for monthly matches is to get to know who the more experienced, level headed shooters... the safety officer, the match director, the club president, the TG, and try to shoot with one of them. Pick their brains, they'll be glad to help. And, if you believe there is a questionable call, enlist their aid. They'll get it sorted out.

 

Again, welcome to the fire!

Duc McCandless,

SASS 25723L

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Go figure. I too am a GF lol

 

You might have screwed with their head. On an occassion or two, I've had someone attempt to call a P on me when shooting two Nevada left sweeps. They'd say, "You double-taped target #1" to which I respond, "Uh-huh. So do you, but I don't have as big a pause between my fifth and sixth shot." Sometimes gunfighters freak out spotters. Some of us freak them out...without even shooting. I'm sure you've realized that you've stepped in a big pile of fun. Yeeeee Haaaaaw!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I agree with all of the above about chain of command and being polite....

But (and you knew it was comin' didnt ya?) - there is no reason ANYONE (new shooter or SASS #1) should happily accept an incorrect call just because there aint no Cadillac for the winner.

 

They paid their money, they deserve accurate scoring (within the skills and abilities of the spotters and TO), if a call is wrong or cannot be explained to them to their satisfaction - they are remiss if they just "Let it go" - because the same (possibly wrong) call may be made again and might be made when the score does mean something to the shooter.

 

That's why the "Whats the call?" threads are so popular.

Disecting the information, understanding the rules and working to determine the "Right" call everytime should be the norm - not dismissed with "Don't worry about it - It's just a game".

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

In the future how do I go about stating my complaint without seeming like an A$$.

 

I'm going out on a limb and offer a creative alternative:

Write a protest song:

Example:

 

Or maybe a cleverly written limerick?

 

Seriously, be direct, but polite away from the line.