97 vs 87 vs SxS 12ga?

[The Dakota Clay]

Some of you might recall that I have a SxS (Baikal coach gun) and a Norinco 97T.

 

Since I finally realized that the 97 Trench gun is a no-go, I'm looking to get a new 12ga. I was looking for a 97, but stumbled across the 87.

 

I'm not familiar with the 87's operation, but can it be single fed for reloads quickly? I load over the top on my 97T, can the 87's be top loaded?

 

I like the 97 and naturally it seems to be the fastest gun in the "new" west, but I'm intrigued by the 87...

[Dubious Don #56333]

The 87 can be very fast IF it is set up correctly AND, it is run correctly. Takes a bit of practice and this gun can be very frustrating to learn. 97's are easier to run fast, but a good SXS shooter can keep up with enough PRACTICE.

 

The 87 can be single fed or double fed. Out of the box Norinco? You might be frustrated fighting the gun. None are perfectly set up out of the box and do tend to be rough. A Chiappa (1200 bucks) or a Coyote Cap gun set up will be more of a pleasure BUT, still takes practice.

 

I think the 87's are funner than the 97 but I've become quite partial to my doubles and seem to be shootin them more and more. (bought another danged one today)

[stepnmud#33546]

Yes and only from the top.

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

I shoot both and while i love the 87, the 97 is much easier to master, and a new 97 will probably work fine out of the box, I doubt an 87 could compete out of the box without an injection of $$$$$'s. .......Doc

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

What Doc said. I understand the new IAC 97s are good to go.

[Numa, #17667]

The 87 is a cool shotgun, I have shot one for over 2 yrs now. IT IS NOT the speed demon that the 97 or even a double is. It can be shot fast, if you practice and practice. Seems to have a mind of its own if all is not right on that day. I shoot mine from the hip(due to shoulder prob.)

I don't really like a 97, but I am better and faster with one.

Still a 87 is cool.

 

 

Numa

[Jack Houston # 35508]

The 87 is a cool shotgun, I have shot one for over 2 yrs now. IT IS NOT the speed demon that the 97 or even a double is. It can be shot fast, if you practice and practice. Seems to have a mind of its own if all is not right on that day. I shoot mine from the hip(due to shoulder prob.)

I don't really like a 97, but I am better and faster with one.

Still a 87 is cool.

 

 

Numa

Use the Baikal !!!

[Smithy]

I have an 87 and a SXS and if your intention is to single load the 87 it can be quite fast if you learn to hold and control the gun entirely with your firing hand be that right, if right handed, or left if left handed. You fire the gun, then eject the round sharply and fully as far as it will go past vertical, supporting the gun solely by the lever only. The shell will eject like it is supposed to and the carrier will be flush with the top and ready for you to place a fresh round on top to chamber and start all over again. If you cut the ejection process down just a little bit then all bets are off. The empty won't necessarily eject the way you had planed and the carrier will have a step in it that will empeed the chambering of a new round. Smithy.

[Bart Solo]

I have a tuned Baikal and a 97 clone acquired for WB shooting. If given a choice I will pick up the SXS every time. Not much can go wrong with the Baikal and it is built like a tank. I also have a real nice professionally tuned Stoeger SXS and I still pick up my beat up old Baikal. Funny for my entire first year of shooting I hated the gun, but I had it tuned by Gunslinger and it has been a champ ever since.

[Bart Solo]

I forgot to mention that you can make any gun work well if you practice, practice, practice. Long Hunter has some really good videos in the members area of the SASS website. Take a look. Then practice.

[Grizzly Dave]

Sell the Baikal to me cheap and buy a 97 and 87

 

I like the SxSs, and if I was buying another CAS shotgun it would be an 87.

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

As was said above, the 87's are just plain cool. But if you're going to run it right, you'd best be ready to beat it like a rented stepchild, 'cause if you don't it'll choke up on you. The long lever throw can for sure be an issue. Definitely take into consideration the P word (practice). This year I finally managed to get in enough practice to make my 87 work like it's supposed to most of the time; on the other hand, somebody else now owns my tuned and polished 87 and there's one of Nate Kiowa Jones' race-ready Cimmaron hammer doubles in my gun safe...

 

There was a video floating around on the 'net for a while of somebody, I think it might have been Fireball, running a whole bunch of rounds through an 87 in one heck of a hurry, which shows that it's possible for an 87 to be really fast, but I just couldn't make it work. That doesn't mean you can't. If you want an 87, get an 87, then you'll know, but if 'twere me, I'd make sure and get one that's already tuned up and ready to roll, then practice, practice, practice...

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Your "speed" will depend entirely on what you PRACTICE with. I shot a '97 for years and seldom had a train wreck with it. Then I discovered the TTN/Cimarron hammer double. I'm as fast with the double as I was with the '97. PRACTICE, grashopper!!

 

Coffinmaker

[Ricochet Roy, SASS #71853]

IMHO the Winchester 87 is the most handsome and comfortable shouldering shotgun ever made. I have a Chiappa 87, out of the box I can drop 2 and I cannot imagine how the action could possibly be improved. I got mine from Sixgun Shorty. They are as rare as hen's teeth but worth the wait and the extra dollars. I also shoot an original Winchester 97. One thing I've learned, do not be nice and gentle to your 97.

 

Roy

[Fairshake]

As you can see your question brought up the Baskin Robbins answer. When it comes to any gun there are some who like and others who don't. I have a Coyote Cap 87 that I paid about $800 for and it took over 6 months to receive. The learning curve is the hardest of all the shotguns. To me it is the top point gun in SASS and is by far the most fun to shoot. Having said that it is also the slowest of the bunch. If you are in SASS as a Gamer then a 87 is not your gun. Lassister can run one in unreal time but he is not your average shooter by far. I joined SASS to act out my boyhood dreams and not to win buckles. I also shoot 100% Warthog loads which places me at the bottom of most shoots. I am winning every time I shoot if you understand where I'm coming from. I don't think the 97 should be allowed in any class but WB but the founders are all former shoot fast guys and I have shot that style of competition.The 97 also requires the most up keep out of the bunch with the SXS winning in this department. I also shoot a TTN which is now being made by EMF with the former TTN Walt Johnson working there. So you have to decide what you want out of SASS and then your decision will be a bit more easier to make. By the way I started with the Baikal but the trigger guard would cut my hand to the point that I had to tape my fingers every match.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

EMF didn't buy TTN. Cimarron did.

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

What I see more and more at shoots is the truly fast shooters going back to a SxS, mostly a single trigger high end gun and running circles arround the rest of us. Of course, most of you could walk circles arround me, but I know Deuce used to use a 97 and has been using a SxS for some time now. I believe he is slightly faster with it than a 97 or 87.

 

I think that an 87 or a hammer SxS looks really cool and authentic, but it's very hard to outrun a top shooter with a single trigger hammerless SxS.

 

I think my Hammered Husky SxS it tops for "Cool", but I mostly shoot my old Bounty Hunter II hammerless for simplisity. And it's quicker, too.

 

Greeenriver

[Korupt Karl]

I have shot a 97 since I started. First I went through a couple of Winchester and now have a couple that were slicked by Colt McCallister. I have an Ithica double which works well, but I haven't spent enough time with it. If I were to acquire an 87 I would send it to Lassiter....have you seen him work one???? wowl Nothing against Cody or the others, I just spent more exposure to Lassiter and his work is good.

 

KK

[Gunner, SASS #1940]

Geepers, it almost seems like the LASSOOS thread needs to be resurrected, if that is even possible.

 

Regardless, the cowboy that practices with whatever shotgun, will be the fastest.

Fireball is amazing with an 87.

As I always said, I cannot even mimmick what he does as fast as he really does it.

 

Tru dat!

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

It's all about practice, practice, with whatever you are going to shoot, have seen most of the top shooters are going back to the S x S, they used the 97, to many parts to break and this includes the 87 as well, the 87 is a cool factor for sure but can break down, have seen it, but he had another one for back up, same with the 97, haven't ever seen a SxS break at a match, not saying it can't happen, I just have never seen it. It is what you want I guess, but the bottom line is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE with whatever you choose to use, that is the bottom line, if you can find the video of Lassister on the 87, that took practice, T-Bone Dooley on the hammered shotgun, that is alot of practice with a hammered shotgun

 

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, then you will see what it takes to be fast with a shotgun, if you practice with the one you are going to use and put in the effort with the one you are going to use, you will see your times will decrease because of the practice you put in on the shotgun

 

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Three Gun Cole]

Look up lassiter on you tube.

 

 

He knows how to run an 87

 

 

3GC

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

If you have unlimited funds buy all three.

 

If you can only swing 1 and you ever want to shoot wild bunch the 97 is the only choice.

 

If you don't ever want to shoot wild bunch or classic cow boy the 87 or SxS are good choices and the SxS by far the most reliable

 

I am thinking many of the SASS categories were developed by those who sell guns. That is not necessarily a bad thing as more is better, but...

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

You can convert your 97T into a legal 97 by removing the shield. Requires a new barrel band.

[Chisler Wood]

http://www.spencerhoglund.com/worldrecords.html

 

Bud had a 3.29 4 shot string single loading one....

 

the 97's are 2.5 - 3.00

[Muddy Creek Sam, SASS# 78004]

I love my original 87, I have 97 and a TTN. have never shot them. My 87 is my Favorite firearm. I may be slow, but I have a great time.

 

Sam

[Fairshake]

Lone Dog, Call Cimarron and see if Walt Johnson is there. If you can't reach him try over at EMF. While your at it put the current EMF beside a TTN and make a comparison. Or you could just talk to Walt himself.

[Fairshake]

Lone Dog, Call Cimarron and see if Walt Johnson is there. If you can't reach him try over at EMF. While your at it put the current EMF beside a TTN and make a comparison. Or you could just talk to Walt himself.

[Fireball #7709 Life]

I'm partial to the '87...imagine that

 

I believe the hammerless double to be the easiest, "average shooter" gun to learn to run. In other words, the guy that does not (for whatever reason) practice can pick one up and do pretty well with it.

 

I believe the 97 is harder to learn well, to start out.

 

I think on average the same amount of practice time is going to be required to move your game up with either of them.

 

If you want to shoot an 87 and run it fast you will have to dedicate yourself to it, it's going to take more time to learn, more ammo and its going to be more frustrating. I don't know an 87 shooter that's good with it that hasn't spent an inordinate time with it practicing. They are an "enthusiast" gun. When you're on with one though, theres nothing cooler!

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Lone Dog, Call Cimarron and see if Walt Johnson is there. If you can't reach him try over at EMF. While your at it put the current EMF beside a TTN and make a comparison. Or you could just talk to Walt himself.

 

 

All I know is what I read here on this Wahr. It has been reported here many many times that it was Cimarron not EMF that bought out TTN lock, stock, barrel, and factory. I don't care who Walt now works for. I wish I worked for the General meowndangself. Great guy. That does not mean, just because Walt now works for EMF that EMF bought out TTN. I do not believe that the pards here that have stated in no uncertain terms that it was Cimarron did the buying are lying to us. Especially Abilene who I believe works for Cimarron.

 

One thing else I know: I own 2 of these guns. An old CCH one that says TTN on it and a newer blue one that says Cimarron on it. It don't say EMF. EMF, I do believe can still get them and are selling them but I do believe they have to get them from Cimarron now.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

My experience indicates that none are worth their salt and shotguns should be dropped from the game! With the '97 it seems that from the box they work only moderately well, although not very slick until you have a gunsmith work on them, after which they are never dependable again. Ever notice that these guys always have two shotguns in the cart? Pretty much the same applies to doubles, either use them ruff out of the box, or send them off to be really boobed over. If you are over 50 do not even mess with the '87 as it will kill your arthritis and if you aint got it yet the '87 will give it to you. Of the lot I do think the unsmithed double seems to give more fokes a dependabie match gun. As to the real speed demons we see operating these guns at extreme speeds without any hitches, well they is just getting the factory hand picked one-in-a-thousand to impress us.

[Tom Bullweed]

My regular main match scattergun is a Stoeger SxS, internal hammer. Practice with snapcaps has gotten loading two from the belt (starting port-arms) down in the 2.5 second range.

My original '97 is not as fast. The benefit for the '97 is when ther are targets grouped in 3's. I do not shoot WB anymore.

I have an original '87 that is a hoot to shoot. It is slower to load, but shoots faster than the others once at the shoulder.

I still think that the '87 and the 1911 are Browning's premier guns (non-automatic), even though he did not want to design the '87.

[Fairshake]

It don't matter a hill of beans to me who owns the company as I receive no money from either of them. I have spent money with both though. You are the one who jumped up and blasted my first post in which I said nothing about who owns what. I said that the TTN was now being made by EMF and that Walt Johnson worked there. That is what I was told when I talked to him direct. I asked if the gun was match ready and if it had the same improvements and was told yes. If you want the gun made by Cimarron then that's fine with me. Now lets see what you win.

[Griff]

...but the founders are all former shoot fast guys...

Let me take a moment to correct that mis-information. Tex & the Durango Kid were the ONLY WB members that have ever won EOT, and could (then) be considered "fast" shooters. While Hipshot, Tex and especially the Durango Kid were always threats... fast with '97s were not their forte! They're legal strictly because the WB ALL owned them and shot them at the time the rules were being written. When SASS rules were being written, I lobbied for them to be regulated to the Modern category... and was told the above was the reason they were allowed in Traditional. IIRC, Tex won his EOT title while shooting Modern and a double; while Durango Kid won his title in Traditional and used a '97. It was a long time ago, and I might be mis-remembering.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

All I know is what I read here on this Wahr. It has been reported here many many times that it was Cimarron not EMF that bought out TTN lock, stock, barrel, and factory. I don't care who Walt now works for. I wish I worked for the General meowndangself. Great guy. That does not mean, just because Walt now works for EMF that EMF bought out TTN. I do not believe that the pards here that have stated in no uncertain terms that it was Cimarron did the buying are lying to us. Especially Abilene who I believe works for Cimarron.

 

One thing else I know: I own 2 of these guns. An old CCH one that says TTN on it and a newer blue one that says Cimarron on it. It don't say EMF. EMF, I do believe can still get them and are selling them but I do believe they have to get them from Cimarron now.

 

 

It don't matter a hill of beans to me who owns the company as I receive no money from either of them. I have spent money with both though. You are the one who jumped up and blasted my first post in which I said nothing about who owns what. I said that the TTN was now being made by EMF and that Walt Johnson worked there. That is what I was told when I talked to him direct. I asked if the gun was match ready and if it had the same improvements and was told yes. If you want the gun made by Cimarron then that's fine with me. Now lets see what you win.

 

 

Neither EMF nor Cimarron owns TTN. TTN doesn't even own TTN anymore. All three were importers of a shotgun developed (reverse engineered) by a German firm then made in a factory in China. After TTN stopped importing them EMF imported them for awhile and now Cimarron imports them.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I have two Baikal SXS two triggers closed hammers turned by Jimmy Spurs and a Win. 97 turned and a screw in choke. They all three shoot faster than me.Watched the SXS vid. and tried it today and loved it. My 97 is really fast when someone shoots it that is fast.I just got it two week ago off the wire looks like a new one., Did not use it today because it was raining>we shot 6 stages