Black Tooth Zach Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 A friend of mine recently asked... "You are my go to guy on Old West firearms. I recently came across an article claiming the Colt Company did not produce the most hand guns of the era and did not deserve the title "the gun that won the west" (always thought that was Winchester anyway). So what company made more revolvers than Colt...do you know?" I'm going to start researching this, but thought I might find some answers here - What firearms company produced the most hand guns in 19th Century America? Should the gun that was most widely produced be considered 'the gun that won the west'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancho Peacemaker Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Smith & Wesson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Howdy Winchester invented the term Gun That Won The West for the Model 1873. As far as who made the most handguns, that will take a while to research. Colt made a lot more models than just the SAA, going all the way back to the 1847 Paterson. All kinds of pocket pistols and other stuff. Same with S&W, they made all kinds of models starting in 1857. I have the books, but I don't think I have the time to add it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I always figured the "Most" figure would be held by one of the pocket-gun companies -- Iver Johnson, Forehand and Wadsworth, someone like that who manufactured a gazillion pistols that didn't compete for the "full-size belt pistol" market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 My vote would be for the Smith & Wesson. The model 3 and its variations due to the many military contracts probably far exceeded Colts productions until the 20th century ? Mink.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I always figured the "Most" figure would be held by one of the pocket-gun companies -- Iver Johnson, Forehand and Wadsworth, someone like that who manufactured a gazillion pistols that didn't compete for the "full-size belt pistol" market. I think so too. Plus you throw in all the Belgian knock offs. The market was no different back then as it is today. In sheer numbers the foreign guns ruled then as they do today. On a side note. Niether Colt or Winchester won the West. Shotgun won the west. The Belgian trade guns ruled those number, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Howdy Winchester invented the term Gun That Won The West for the Model 1873. As far as who made the most handguns, that will take a while to research. Colt made a lot more models than just the SAA, going all the way back to the 1847 Paterson. All kinds of pocket pistols and other stuff. Same with S&W, they made all kinds of models starting in 1857. I have the books, but I don't think I have the time to add it all up. Don't want to be a nit picker, but the Paterson was introduced in 1836. As to who made the most guns, I don't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Don't want to be a nit picker, but the Paterson was introduced in 1836. As to who made the most guns, I don't have a clue. Ooops. Sorry, you are correct. I was thinking of the Walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Mattel.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Smith and Wesson did not show up as often in the "Old West" because of their foreign contracts, primarily Russian. The made a boat load of guns for Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancho Peacemaker Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 A little supporting documentation for my answer above regarding Smith and Wesson: Smith & Wesson's 12 Most Important Guns from "Shooting Times" magazine By Dick Metcalf The term "Model 3" as used by the S&W factory technically refers to a frame size and not to a specific Model, so there were in reality many different specific revolver configurations in the Model 3 series that we would today call "models" (the way there are currently many different S&W K-Frame models and N-Frame models). Collectively, these guns had great and lasting influence. The basic top-break design was copied by dozens of other handgun makers and remained a mainstay of many lines well into the 20th century. The more than 130,000 of the Russian Model sold to the Tsar's government established S&W as an international manufacturer and was the company's first major government contract. The Model 3 American was a preferred handgun of frontiersmen and Western lawmen during the 1870s and '80s, with more than 120,000 sold--making it an equal candidate with the Colt Peacemaker SAA for the title of "Gun That Won The West." (Only 30,063 SAAs were bought by the U.S. government between 1873 and 1891, and only 150,683 total in .45 caliber were manufactured up to 1940.) The .45 Schofield version of the Model 3 is probably the most famous. The U.S. Cavalry purchased 7000, and historians still argue that had Custer's men been armed with quick-reload Schofields (and lever-action Winchesters) instead of the slow-punchout Colts (and single-shot falling-block Springfields) at least some would have survived the field of the Little Bighorn in 1876. Later, the.32-44 and .38-44 chambering versions of the Model 3 Target, introduced in 1887, were the first revolvers to have adjustable sights. This does not include all their .32 and .38 DA hammered and hammerless S&W top-break pocket pistols. Almost 1 million were made by S&W between 1880 and 1919. (You can add these numbers up in Roy Jink's book.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 That's a pretty broad question. Gonna have to define the time period. If you're talking about the entire 19th century -- 1800-1899 -- you'll have to include flintlocks. (Although I doubt their numbers would ever add up to those of the percussion cap era.) Or, perhaps we could separate the eras into flintlock, percussion cap and metallic cartridge? Hey, I'm just trying to stir the pot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 "You are my go to guy on Old West firearms. I recently came across an article claiming the Colt Company did not produce the most hand guns of the era and did not deserve the title "the gun that won the west" (always thought that was Winchester anyway). So what company made more revolvers than Colt...do you know?" I will stick with S&W for my vote.............at least on the revolvers. Even though most were imported outside the US, they probably produced more than most.................. Mink............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Even though most were imported outside the US, they probably produced more than most.................. Howdy Again Most of Smith's production were not exported. The Russian contracts eventually amounted to about 150,000 guns. A few thousand more were sold to Turkey and Japan. This does not include all the Tip Up, and Top Break models in 22, 32, and 38 calibers. It also does not include the #3 American, Schofield, New Model Number Three, and 44 Double Action models. But really, it is a pointless discussion. Who can document how many of Smith's or Colt's, or anybody else's revolvers were shipped to the West? Many remained in the East. Case in point. Here is a photo I took in New York City a couple of years ago. This pistol was dredged out of one of the ponds in Central Park. It looks to me to be a S&W 38 Double Action. Interesting to speculate on why it wound up in a lake in NYC. Central Park S&W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 It looks to me to be a S&W 38 Double Action. Interesting to speculate on why it wound up in a lake in NYC. A similar one was found inside a hotel room wall here in Kansas City when the hotel was being renovated. The hotel dates to 1868. "If these walls could talk..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Some knowledgable people feel that the "British Bull Dog" and its various clones and copies was the "forgotten gun that really won the west". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pee Wee #15785 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I would go for HUbbly (sp) cap guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Some ne'er do well probably shot someone and threw it in the drink 125 years ago. Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Ruger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tooth Zach Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 That's a pretty broad question. Gonna have to define the time period. If you're talking about the entire 19th century -- 1800-1899 -- you'll have to include flintlocks. (Although I doubt their numbers would ever add up to those of the percussion cap era.) Or, perhaps we could separate the eras into flintlock, percussion cap and metallic cartridge? Hey, I'm just trying to stir the pot! I assumed that the focus of the questions was cartridge revolvers - so post-Civil War, maybe including the cartridge conversions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tooth Zach Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 But really, it is a pointless discussion. Who can document how many of Smith's or Colt's, or anybody else's revolvers were shipped to the West? Many remained in the East. By production numbers, it looks like S&W out did Colt, especially with the foreign contracts. But if the S&W's stayed on the East Coast, did they really 'win the West'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauregard Quitman Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Hopkins and Allen made, many, many revolvers under their own name as well as for other companies. I don't know the numbers but I would imagine they might be in contention also. Beau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Seems to me that the West was pretty much won with Colt, Smith, and a few other companies before the tidal wave of Iver Johnson, Wadsworth, etc. hit the market. The Allin Conversion, Sharps, and Rolling Block rifles mostly in 50-70 and the last two in mostly 44-77 made the West safe for Winchesters and shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 S&W top breaks in .32 and .38 were FAR more popular than the "big" guns, in part because of their sales in huge numbers to urban and town folk, as well as to anyone wanting a concealable gun, to women, the elderly, etc. Look at just the serialized .32 DA alone. In the first 18 mos of production they were up to 23000, and from there the numbers explode geometrically, getting up to the middle six digits in a fairly short time, and that's just ONE gun, not included would be the .38 series that also did well, or the Horse pistols..... IJ and the other inexpensive "clones" represent huge numbers as well (they sold for less than half what a real Smith cost), but those numbers would be spread over several makers..... A look at one of those websites that lists the guns considered antique (pre-1899), show some powerful numbers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Howdy Again Most of Smith's production were not exported. The Russian contracts eventually amounted to about 150,000 guns. A few thousand more were sold to Turkey and Japan. This does not include all the Tip Up, and Top Break models in 22, 32, and 38 calibers. It also does not include the #3 American, Schofield, New Model Number Three, and 44 Double Action models. But really, it is a pointless discussion. Who can document how many of Smith's or Colt's, or anybody else's revolvers were shipped to the West? Many remained in the East. Case in point. Here is a photo I took in New York City a couple of years ago. This pistol was dredged out of one of the ponds in Central Park. It looks to me to be a S&W 38 Double Action. Interesting to speculate on why it wound up in a lake in NYC. Central Park S&W I don't see the discussion as pointless. Besides the OP didn't ask how many guns "were shipped to the West"? He ask, "What firearms company produced the most hand guns in 19th Century America?" 19th Century America, the start of 1800 to the end of 1899. Since the majority of the American population has always been in the East (east of the Mississippi), I would say that that means that the majority of gun owners in America were in the East even at the end of the 19th Century. http://www.worldmapsonline.com/kr-1890-us.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Uberti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Ruger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMJ#89586 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 S&W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awful Close Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Had an economics PHD tell me that the one implement that actually Won The West was: BARBWIRE actually it makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Had an economics PHD tell me that the one implement that actually Won The West was:BARBWIRE actually it makes sense Actually, what "won the West" was the 4-4-0 American standard locomotive, with track and cars! If you look at the logistical supply lines, prior to 1869 and into the 1880's, it was the railroads that made possible the cowtowns, which in turn made a destination for the cattle driven up from Texas to the railheads. This, in turn, provided a place for drovers to blow off steam (pun intended) in the saloons, that led to the gunfights, hoorawing, etc.! Sure, stage coaches and freight wagons extended the reach of the railroads, but ultimately branch rail lines took their place. For example, what would Deadwood have been like if you had to get there solely by horse and bull wagons from Omaha? Very little, as the journey would have been far more difficult and dangerous. Instead you caught the Union Pacific from Omaha to Sidney, Nebraska, then caught the Deadwood stage. Same thing further up the line to Cheyenne. Further south and west, the Kansas Pacific and Santa Fe served Dodge City, Santa Fe and the Denver & Rio Grande, and the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy and subsidiaries filled in the gaps. Indeed, before the airlines and Interstate Highway network, if you wanted to get anywhere with heavy freight or rapid passenger service, you went by TRAIN! (Pass some more coal oil, Pard!) Ride easy, but stay alert! Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanza! And a Happy, Healthy and Properous New Year! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard (building his fourth and final HO scale model railroad), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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