Target Size and Distance

[Wyandot Jim]

Well Pards,

 

After shooting at The Tin Star Ranch this past weekend it got me to thinking. Boy is that a bad thing.

 

I heard complaints about target size and placement. In my opinion they seemed to be within SASS recommendations.

 

So my question is where should they be located and what size to please most of the shooters?

 

I'm not a newbie to this game. I have been doing it for the last 10 years and have been to 20 or so clubs in the last 2 years. Got a few buckles and pieces of wood from them. I have seen real close up targets ( Old Ft. Parker) to way out there and small (THSS at Columbus TX.) I have heard complaints on both.

 

We at Tejas Pistoleros at Eagle Lake TX. have been going by the SASS Recommendations on distance and size. There have been a lot of complaints on these as well. I realize the SASS recommendations are not what a lot of the clubs now shoot. So how do you get by without using SASS guide lines? Does insurance come into the picture?

 

Now don't get me wrong on this. I really want to know. If you were to put on a State Level or above match. What would you do?

 

Thanks,

 

Wyandot

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

My home club (Thunder Mountain Shootists) is putting on the 2011 Colorado State Championships.

We will be using SASS recommended distances and sizes with a mix of some targets at the closer end of the scale and some at the middle distances.

We don't usually set anything out at the far end of the scale for our monthlies so I don't expect to see any targets at those distances for the State Shoot.

Our intent is that the match could be shot clean by all shooters if they took their time, but we expect that the average stage will be shot very quickly (bringing on the occasional miss).

It should be a shooters match and a lot of fun for all.

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Howdy Wyandot,

When we put on our annual I put pistols at 5-7 yds., but 80% are at the closer distance. Rifle will be 10 -18 yds, but 70% are at 12yds and a couple of targets may be a little further than 18yds. All of our targets (with a couple of exceptions) are at least 16"x16".

 

Folks seem to enjoy our match.

 

Possum

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Howdy Wyandot,

When we put on our annual I put pistols at 5-7 yds., but 80% are at the closer distance. Rifle will be 10 -18 yds, but 70% are at 12yds and a couple of targets may be a little further than 18yds. All of our targets (with a couple of exceptions) are at least 16"x16".

 

Folks seem to enjoy our match.

 

Possum

 

Set up like this and I think you'll get the least amount of complaining.

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Set up like this and I think you'll get the least amount of complaining.

 

 

 

+1

 

 

(tho we will still find something to whine about)

[Anvil Al #59168]

Howdy Wyandot,

When we put on our annual I put pistols at 5-7 yds., but 80% are at the closer distance. Rifle will be 10 -18 yds, but 70% are at 12yds and a couple of targets may be a little further than 18yds. All of our targets (with a couple of exceptions) are at least 16"x16".

 

Folks seem to enjoy our match.

 

Possum

 

 

+1

That is one good reason why we are planning on driving 8 hours down there to shoot again this year.

Most clubs I shoot are like this. And they are the ones normally getting better turn outs at the matches.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Possum:

 

I also think that is an excellent setup personality.

 

 

..........Widder

[Wyandot Jim]

Howdy Wyandot,

When we put on our annual I put pistols at 5-7 yds., but 80% are at the closer distance. Rifle will be 10 -18 yds, but 70% are at 12yds and a couple of targets may be a little further than 18yds. All of our targets (with a couple of exceptions) are at least 16"x16".

 

Folks seem to enjoy our match.

 

Possum

 

 

Hey Pards,

 

Thanks for all your input.

 

 

 

Possum since you know me personally you know I'm not trying to start a flame war here.

 

The recommended SASS dist. and sizes are 16"X16" Pistol 7-10 yards Rifle 13-50 yds. and Shotgun 8-16 yds.

 

From the above post it is obvious that the closer targets, not recommended by SASS, are more enjoyable. You have seen me shoot so you know I agree with you 100%.

 

What I hear from some of the clubs, ours included, is that we will not set targets closer than SASS reommends. When I ask why I always get the insurence and lawer smoke blown at me.

 

It seems to me that it isn't the clubs that are keeping folks away by target placement, but SASS recommendations are. So how do we get around this problem?

 

I have never been to EOT or Winter Range. What do they do at those matches?

 

Here again I'm just trying to sort this out. I think that the lower attendance at the clubs with farther targets is the reason that is taking place.

 

When I hear comments from shooters like "dang those targets are far". Or "I can't shoot here because I can't shoot my speed". They don't come back and they will go to another club. Also if there is another club close by long time members will start going to that one. When you have a small club you need those members to be able to pay for the club operating cost. No members/money no club. The Board Members are trying to do right by the correct target dist., but it ends up wrong.

 

Thanks for all the help. I truly love this sport and it hurts me to see what is happening to some clubs.

 

Wyandot

[Two Gun Johnnie]

Wyandot

 

Ask the folks at your club what they want. They are the ones who will support you if you are giving THEM what they want. I know your concerns. I wish we could make all of them happy, but I don't think we can. We just do our best. Good luck brother.

 

Two Gun.

[Painted Filly]

It is not always distance. It is also size of the targets. The smaller they are and the farther they are they are even smaller. We have aclup that uses small targets and put them out there.. most common to see pistols at 12 yards and size of 10" x 10". The rifles are at probably 20 -25 yards and they are the same size and they even put out some that are 6"x6" for the rifles. They have maybe 12 shooters a month. We will not go there anymore.

 

Painted Filly

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

So if you are not allowed to bring the targets in closer then why not make them a little bigger......

 

18 x 24 at 7 yds is pretty cool.....plus it works out to be an even number of targets from a single sheet of steel.

 

20" and 24" circles are pretty cool.....

 

you can go even bigger.....heck I know a match that has a 5 FOOT wide and tall target....guess what people still miss it.

 

just remember TOO much of any one good thing is BAD....mix it up.....

 

Stan

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

It is not always distance. It is also size of the targets. The smaller they are and the farther they are they are even smaller. We have aclup that uses small targets and put them out there.. most common to see pistols at 12 yards and size of 10" x 10". The rifles are at probably 20 -25 yards and they are the same size and they even put out some that are 6"x6" for the rifles. They have maybe 12 shooters a month. We will not go there anymore.

 

Painted Filly

 

Harrrrrrrrrrrrr! Shape of the target is my huckelberry. Those danged SPADES and taller than wide DIAMONDS are my misses. But, I like to shoot 'em at any distance. Dont' matter to me if she goes DING as long as she goes BANG!

 

prs

[William Waddy]

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I believe that "asking people what they want," does not work very well in this case. That is because typically only the extremists at both ends of the scale are willing to come forward and voice their opinions. In the end, the proof is in the pudding (e.g., the popularity of the club/shoot). From everything I can see, clubs using the aforementioned target sizes & distances (i.e., what Possum Skinner wrote) have more people join their clubs and more shooters sign up for matches. I believe the sport is big enough for everyone and there should probably be matches at the extremes to accommodate those that like the extremes. Given the extreme eclectic-ness of those involved in CAS there is no way you are going to please everyone all the time. But if you want to please most of the people most of the time, I'd stick with what Possum Skinner advises. If you want to actually do some research, rather than "ask people what they want," I suggest investigating the most popular shoots and clubs and see what they do. Club memberships and match attendance are the bottom-line statement of what folks want, not what a few strong-willed people say.

[Wyandot Jim]

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I believe that "asking people what they want," does not work very well in this case. That is because typically only the extremists at both ends of the scale are willing to come forward and voice their opinions. In the end, the proof is in the pudding (e.g., the popularity of the club/shoot). From everything I can see, clubs using the aforementioned target sizes & distances (i.e., what Possum Skinner wrote) have more people join their clubs and more shooters sign up for matches. I believe the sport is big enough for everyone and there should probably be matches at the extremes to accommodate those that like the extremes. Given the extreme eclectic-ness of those involved in CAS there is no way you are going to please everyone all the time. But if you want to please most of the people most of the time, I'd stick with what Possum Skinner advises. If you want to actually do some research, rather than "ask people what they want," I suggest investigating the most popular shoots and clubs and see what they do. Club memberships and match attendance are the bottom-line statement of what folks want, not what a few strong-willed people say.

 

WW and the rest of you are correct.

The problem is the clubs are controlled by the board or the land owner of the club. Most will not change. I know of at least 4 or 5 that are that way. On the other hand. I went to a State Match where the Match Director asked me and other shooters what they could do to improve. He really meant it. My reply was not a thing. It is a great match as is. That is the kind of place you enjoy shooting.

Trust me some owners/boards will not change from what SASS recommends.

Lets say you are hurt real bad from a target being set closer than SASS recommends. What will the owners insurance/lawer do?

Yea I know we sign a release probably doesn't mean squat.

Changing to bigger targets is a real big expense. A 16"X16" or close to that is about right for shooting and moving around.

Thanks again,

Wyandot

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Jim,

I have not been to Winter Range, but EOT had the targets at approximately the distances I mentioned or closer. If you can't move the targets closer, then the only alternative is bigger, which it seems is not an option, either.

 

Your shooting orders and target spacing can help some. More multi-tap sweeps. Targets not widely spaced. Also, solid 16" x 16" squares have more surface area than a 16" circle or cowboy.

 

Good, smooth steel, mounted and angled correctly at 3 yards is much safer than dimpled/damaged steel at 7 yards Safer even than good steel mounted incorrectly at 7 yards.

 

You are on the right track.

Possum

[Goliath, SASS #41359]

(tho we will still find something to whine about)

 

we might even whine about having nothing to whine about :D

[Wyandot Jim]

Jim,

I have not been to Winter Range, but EOT had the targets at approximately the distances I mentioned or closer. If you can't move the targets closer, then the only alternative is bigger, which it seems is not an option, either.

 

Your shooting orders and target spacing can help some. More multi-tap sweeps. Targets not widely spaced. Also, solid 16" x 16" squares have more surface area than a 16" circle or cowboy.

 

Good, smooth steel, mounted and angled correctly at 3 yards is much safer than dimpled/damaged steel at 7 yards Safer even than good steel mounted incorrectly at 7 yards.

 

You are on the right track.

Possum

 

 

Possum,

Thanks again. We just bought all new targets made from armor plate steel rather than A-36. For some reason it was decided to make the rifle targets round rather than the preferred square.

 

What I find interesting about EOT is SASS isn't going by their own Recommendations on distance. Am I correct on that?

Thanks,

Wyandot

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Jim,

Why not point out to the clubs and the land barons that no where in the SASS Handbook, RO1, RO2 or Match Directors Guide does it state that the size and distance recommendations are for safety purposes.

 

Trying to tie Size recommendations with Safety is stupid right....so if it was about safety then why would they have the two items(size and distance) listed together.....they wouldn't......they are together because they (recommended size and distance) are about putting on an enjoyable match....in fact on Page 20 of the current Handbook it states....

 

Targets are set at close to medium range. There are no absolute rules, but we suggest the following distances, by firearm, if using a target approximately 16" X 16":

 

Stan

[Wyandot Jim]

Jim,

Why not point out to the clubs and the land barons that no where in the SASS Handbook, RO1, RO2 or Match Directors Guide does it state that the size and distance recommendations are for safety purposes.

 

Trying to tie Size recommendations with Safety is stupid right....so if it was about safety then why would they have the two items(size and distance) listed together.....they wouldn't......they are together because they (recommended size and distance) are about putting on an enjoyable match....in fact on Page 20 of the current Handbook it states....

 

 

 

Stan

 

 

Stan,

Very GOOD point. I guess most of the higer ups assume it is a safety issue. I did the same, shame on me. The splatter and bounce back always seem to play a part when distance comes up.

Thanks so much.

Jim

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Good, smooth steel, mounted and angled correctly at 3 yards is much safer than dimpled/damaged steel at 7 yards Safer even than good steel mounted incorrectly at 7 yards.

+1

[Cowhand,SASS#63559]

+1

That is one good reason why we are planning on driving 8 hours down there to shoot again this year.

Most clubs I shoot are like this. And they are the ones normally getting better turn outs at the matches.

 

another 1+ Go for fun and have fun. No money of any kind waiting on you if you win!

[Marcus Hooker, SASS #29384]

Jim:

 

LARGER targets solve the distance/splatter issuie. However, LARGER targets cost MORE money. I would rather a club purchase smaller good steel more frequently them use old beat up LARGER targets past their useful life.

 

But, this is the old chicken and egg story. Larger targets mean more attendence and more money for targets.

 

We both have shoot BIG & NEAR and small & far, aslong as you now in advance you can adjust your shooting and/or your attendence.

 

Regards,

Marcus Hooker

Adventurer

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

The idea that placing targets closer than SASS guidelines causes a problem with insurance is an irrational fear based upon what so-and-so said. It is usually cited as a last resort by a very vocal minority who cling to the idea that targets should be small and distant in the face of the fact that most people want to shoot a match that is big and close. Yes, most of us know that the targets do not always have to be in your face to have a good match.

 

Essentially, by giving recommended target sizes and distances, SASS is simply attempting to define the game…which is a gunfight…not an ambush from a nearby mountaintop. There’s a side match for that that we call long range. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what people like in this game. All a person has to do is take a look around and see what is being done at the most successful matches.

 

Sometimes, the unfortunate side effect of having a volunteer ran organization is when the management of a club fails to do the things that would increase the success of a club, unlike a work environment; there is no pay cut or loss of promotion. If they’re running the club or are the land owner, they’re already at the top and might very well choose to be a big frog in a small pond than to face the possibility of being a tadpole in a big pond.

 

Most of the time, you simply have good people whose powers of observation…are not so powerful…or they haven’t observed because they do not travel to other matches to see what others are doing that makes them successful. We are fortunate to have many excellent volunteers who run the successful clubs and whose focus is to have lots of shooters wearing lots of smiles.

 

Edit: changed "that" to "than." When I proof something I have written, it is typical for me to see what I think I typed rather that than what I actually typed.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Well said, Buck.

[Wyandot Jim]

The idea that placing targets closer than SASS guidelines causes a problem with insurance is an irrational fear based upon what so-and-so said. It is usually cited as a last resort by a very vocal minority who cling to the idea that targets should be small and distant in the face of the fact that most people want to shoot a match that is big and close. Yes, most of us know that the targets do not always have to be in your face to have a good match.

 

Essentially, by giving recommended target sizes and distances, SASS is simply attempting to define the game…which is a gunfight…not an ambush from a nearby mountaintop. There’s a side match for that that we call long range. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what people like in this game. All a person has to do is take a look around and see what is being done at the most successful matches.

 

Sometimes, the unfortunate side effect of having a volunteer ran organization is when the management of a club fails to do the things that would increase the success of a club, unlike a work environment; there is no pay cut or loss of promotion. If they’re running the club or are the land owner, they’re already at the top and might very well choose to be a big frog in a small pond that to face the possibility of being a tadpole in a big pond.

 

Most of the time, you simply have good people whose powers of observation…are not so powerful…or they haven’t observed because they do not travel to other matches to see what others are doing that makes them successful. We are fortunate to have many excellent volunteers who run the successful clubs and whose focus is to have lots of shooters wearing lots of smiles.

 

Buck,

Very well put and 100% correct. Thanks

Missed you and Sugar at the MO. State Match. That match has to be one of the best around and run by outstanding folks. Smokie will tell you that he wants to please the customer/us. Shame more clubs don't feel that way.

Thanks again,

Jim

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

OK Jim- why not start a "Bigger Target" fund for Pistoleros? I'll donate some.

[Wyandot Jim]

OK Jim- why not start a "Bigger Target" fund for Pistoleros? I'll donate some.

 

 

Tell

It isn't just TP that has the mine set that they do. As you well know there are some other local clubs that think the same way as TP.

If I thought it would make a difference in the placement of the targets that we have at TP. Which are brand new. I would be more than happy to buy new ones. If that is all it took to set them at the distance most all the shooters wanted them to be. Shooters want to hit steel. It is that simple. So why do some want to make that hard to do? I guess I'm to stupid to figure that one out.

I could probably buy a freight car load of targets and the board would not change their minds on the placement of them. As you well know this is a decision made by a board member of one.

Anyway in a few months I don't think this will be a problem. Like I stated no members/no money. What a shame.

Jim

[Wyandot Jim]

OK Jim- why not start a "Bigger Target" fund for Pistoleros? I'll donate some.

 

 

Tell

It isn't just TP that has the mine set that they do. As you well know there are some other local clubs that think the same way as TP.

If I thought it would make a difference in the placement of the targets that we have at TP. Which are brand new. I would be more than happy to buy new ones. If that is all it took to set them at the distance most all the shooters wanted them to be. Shooters want to hit steel. It is that simple. So why do some want to make that hard to do? I guess I'm to stupid to figure that one out.

I could probably buy a freight car load of targets and the board would not change their minds on the placement of them. As you well know this is a decision made by a board member of one.

Anyway in a few months I don't think this will be a problem. Like I stated no members/no money. What a shame.

Jim

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Good luck Jim.

 

Possum

[Wyandot Jim]

Good luck Jim.

 

Possum

 

Hey Possum,

Thanks so much. I think it will take more than luck to change the thinking of some. Seems there are a lot of folks that already know everything and will not change. I just wanted to know if their reasons were justified. Thanks to all of you now I know they are not.

Hope to shoot with you again soon. If the Black Powder Gunfighter class passes just might have to give it a try. WATCH OUT HERE I COME :rolleyes

 

Thanks to all of you for the help,

 

Jim

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

Jim, I believe the "insurance" thing is merely an excuse to keep the targets where they want them. If that was the only reason then they would bring some of them in to SASS minimum distances and give their shooters a variety. The splatter issue is also an excuse, I have recieved more splatter at targets set much further out than Ft. Parker. Some clubs just have a mind set of what they prefer and will try and justify it by any means, unfortunately it's always insurance and splatter! See you down the trail Pard!

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Howdy Wyandot,

When we put on our annual I put pistols at 5-7 yds., but 80% are at the closer distance. Rifle will be 10 -18 yds, but 70% are at 12yds and a couple of targets may be a little further than 18yds. All of our targets (with a couple of exceptions) are at least 16"x16".

 

Folks seem to enjoy our match.

 

Possum

 

+1

 

From the few monthly clubs that I shot with, Possum's recommendation is a general crowd pleaser.

 

And as many have said, having the targets situated in such a way as to make the shoot entertaining and not frustrating is the way to go.

 

More people will come back to shoot again if they feel good about the target placement and shooter friendly scenarios.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

PS: Did I ever tell you ....

 

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

The excuse about insurance doesn't wash. I was a club treasurer for years and never heard a word from any insurance company about rules, regulations, or any such thing. All they wanted was our money every year!