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Jgbeerman

Cimmeron 1866 Jamming

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Afternoon-

 

So I bought a brand new Cimmeron 1866 a few weeks ago and finally got some time to go to the range and give it a shot. First load of ten, no issues. Second load set of 10 no issues. 3rd round of ten and 3 got stuck. I was able to look down into the gun and saw the bullet were angled to the right so they could not be brought up to the receiver. I was able to just stick a pen in the loading gate to straighten out the bullet, however for CAS that is not a good fix. I was wondering if it was something wrong with the way i was loading or if it is the gun?

 

4th set of 10 only the first one got stuck.

 

This was the first time I have shot the gun and I bought it new.

 

Any suggestions on how to prevent the jamming?

Thanks

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check you OAL (length) of your bullet should be around 1.50

 

KK

 

 

Afternoon-

 

So I bought a brand new Cimmeron 1866 a few weeks ago and finally got some time to go to the range and give it a shot. First load of ten, no issues. Second load set of 10 no issues. 3rd round of ten and 3 got stuck. I was able to look down into the gun and saw the bullet were angled to the right so they could not be brought up to the receiver. I was able to just stick a pen in the loading gate to straighten out the bullet, however for CAS that is not a good fix. I was wondering if it was something wrong with the way i was loading or if it is the gun?

 

4th set of 10 only the first one got stuck.

 

This was the first time I have shot the gun and I bought it new.

 

Any suggestions on how to prevent the jamming?

Thanks

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check you OAL (length) of your bullet should be around 1.50

 

KK

 

How does one check that?

 

I was not shooting cowboy loads, just regular .38 Winchesters from walmart.

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like Kiowa said check your OAL, also 66s are notorious for the tabs on the loading gate having issues! once I changed my out with a VTI I have had no issues.

hope this helps

Rafe

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When ten rounds are loaded and the last one seen from the top of the carrier kinda cockeyed? See www.pioneergunworks.com regarding modifying inside the frame just behind the carrier. I am sure someone will chime in the exact location of the modification. Seeing the picture will give you an understanding of what needs to be done.

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like Kiowa said check your OAL, also 66s are notorious for the tabs on the loading gate having issues! once I changed my out with a VTI I have had no issues.

hope this helps

Rafe

 

What do you mean by VTI?

Thanks

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I think more info is necessary. What type of bullet? Lead, hollow point, etc? What weight? to measure the overal length, use a dail caliper, if not available, set the bullet on a table, with a ruler behind it and line up the length with ruler and that will give a fair approximation.

Muleshoe

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Howdy,

Just so I wasn't feeding you some bad info, I went and measured a carrier on a 1873 357 rifle and then measured my wifes 1866 38 carrier and they are the same length, in order for you to shoot 38's in a 357 1873 you had to lengthen the load to the length of a 357, thats why you go to about 1.50 on the length and you can use a micrometer to do the measurement, and I believe factory 38 loads are shorter so that could cause your jam in the carrier.

 

KK

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like Kiowa said check your OAL, also 66s are notorious for the tabs on the loading gate having issues! once I changed my out with a VTI I have had no issues.

hope this helps

Rafe

 

 

He's talking about the loading gate from VTIgunparts.com.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

you answered your own question"regular 38s from Walmart"may not be the correct length to feed in you gun

-most re loaders make there 38s longer for marlins but your 66 may need a certain shape bullet to feed reliably.

ask some one at your club with the same gun what works for him ;)

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I think more info is necessary. What type of bullet? Lead, hollow point, etc? What weight? to measure the overal length, use a dail caliper, if not available, set the bullet on a table, with a ruler behind it and line up the length with ruler and that will give a fair approximation.

Muleshoe

 

honestly I am not sure. I do not have the box anymore that they came in, so I do not know any more information, sorry.

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Pioneer frame mod

http://www.pioneergunworks.com/uploads/Mod...3_Frame_Mod.pdf

 

All I can tell you since you do not have box, if the rounds were 125 gr hollow points they were way short for a 66 or 73 and that might have been the problem, If they were 158 gr RN lead, still would need the length or the 130 gr RN. Next time ya wander into Walmart, give it a look see and see if you can find whatcha had.

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JG, yer gonna need to buddy up with one of the CAS pards in VT and have em walk ya through some of this stuff. I can tell by the questions yer asking, yer in over yer head just now. Not to worry, we all had to learn somehow.

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The 1866 is a mighty fine rifle. My wife & I shot one of the older models for years! You are getting some good advice here:

 

1. Overall length of the cartridge is important. It should be about 1/8" shorter than the carrier slot. Since the size of the carriers has varied over the years, you may just want to hold the bullet in question up to the slot to see how they compare. I found that Winchester 150 grn LRN bullets fed just fine in ours ~ they may not in your rifle. Some of the cowboy ammunition places, such as Ammo Direct, have cowboy action "rifle" ammo, which is slightly longer than standard factory. You might order a box or two to see if it works in your rifle, then stock up!

 

2. In the last few years the '66 loading gate (ladle) has gained a reputation for being a problem. As has been mentioned, VTI Gunparts has the solution. I ALSO found that when loading ten rounds, the ladle sometimes would not pop back flush with the side plate, causing the first round to jam. We made a habit of checking for this malfunction at the loading table by easing the lever open just enough to see if the bolt would move, and then closing it back (don't chamber a round). If the lever won't operate this little bit, push the last round with a pen or other pusher to get the ladle to snap back. We checked for this after EVERY time we loaded the rifle.

 

3. The mod recommended by Pioneer Gun Works may help. Will Shoot'em knows his stuff about '66's & '73's and, I bet, about a lot of other things, too!

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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Beerman VTI gunparts http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/ and the 1866 in particular http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdispl...erti+1866+Rifle Part #.127 ladle in winchester vernacular,also known as the loading gate. Their is a small tab bent 90 degrees on them as Uberti produces them. They are very thin metal,can and will break some where between 5 rds. and 50,000 rounds but they will break. Some folks have a small piece of drill rod brazed on them to prevent breakage,some use JB weld to put a fillet where they break. Some just order a aftermarket replacement from VTI or one of the other parts suppliers. Like Brownells http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=Ube...ading_gates,not the first one is for the 73 ,the other two are for the 66. That said their are two because their are two different screw sizes. It is my understanding that earlier production guns used the small screw.While I believe that the problem is associated with over all length of your cartridges,this loading gate problem will eventually rear it's ugly head. Here is some information on O.A.L. in toggle link guns http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/togglelink.pdf I sent you a PM as well,if their is any thing I can help you with just give me a shout. Adios Sgt. Jake

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Like was said,check the tab on the loading gate.Another thing you can do is shorten the mag spring to about 2 inches past the end of the mag tube.Uberti uses the same 28inch mag spring in all barrel length's of their rifles.Shortening the spring will lessen the tension on the bullet and let it load into the carrier(both 38 and 357's use the same carrier btw) "less" crooked.I did that on both of mine a carbine and 20 inch rifles and they feed a whole lot better now.

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Like was said,check the tab on the loading gate.Another thing you can do is shorten the mag spring to about 2 inches past the end of the mag tube.Uberti uses the same 28inch mag spring in all barrel length's of their rifles.Shortening the spring will lessen the tension on the bullet and let it load into the carrier(both 38 and 357's use the same carrier btw) "less" crooked.I did that on both of mine a carbine and 20 inch rifles and they feed a whole lot better now.I tried ordering a 38 only carrier from Midway and when it showed up there was zero difference between the one that came and the one already in my 38/357 chambered 20 inch 73.

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JG,

 

Sounds like you are new to this game, and new to toggle link rifles. The '66 is really a great rifle and will run just fine with .38 Special ammo, down to about 1.40 over all length (OAL). The over all length however does not appear to be the problem from what you describe.

There needs to be a ramp cut in the back wall of the Carrier Block mortice. It should be there from the factory but frequently isn't. It will have to be added for your rifle to feed reliably.

You need to check in with your local cowboys for someone familiar with working on the toggle link rifles. I don't recommend sending it back to be corrected as I feel you'll get the "it's within spec" answer. I didn't check your initial post for your physical location or I could recommend a good gun plumber to send it to for correction. You might want to consider an action job at the same time to make the rifle more user friendly and extend the life of the moving parts.

 

Coffinmaker

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If he was using Wal Mart 38 special, then he was using full metal jacket, not cowboy loads, have never seen cowboy loads at a Wal Mart, around here they have a 130 grain full metal jacket and they also have a 125 grain jsp if I remember right, if he was using cowboy loads from Wal Mart, he was lucky to get them

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

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The 1866 is a mighty fine rifle. My wife & I shot one of the older models for years! You are getting some good advice here:

 

1. Overall length of the cartridge is important. It should be about 1/8" shorter than the carrier slot. Since the size of the carriers has varied over the years, you may just want to hold the bullet in question up to the slot to see how they compare. I found that Winchester 150 grn LRN bullets fed just fine in ours ~ they may not in your rifle. Some of the cowboy ammunition places, such as Ammo Direct, have cowboy action "rifle" ammo, which is slightly longer than standard factory. You might order a box or two to see if it works in your rifle, then stock up!

 

2. In the last few years the '66 loading gate (ladle) has gained a reputation for being a problem. As has been mentioned, VTI Gunparts has the solution. I ALSO found that when loading ten rounds, the ladle sometimes would not pop back flush with the side plate, causing the first round to jam. We made a habit of checking for this malfunction at the loading table by easing the lever open just enough to see if the bolt would move, and then closing it back (don't chamber a round). If the lever won't operate this little bit, push the last round with a pen or other pusher to get the ladle to snap back. We checked for this after EVERY time we loaded the rifle.

 

3. The mod recommended by Pioneer Gun Works may help. Will Shoot'em knows his stuff about '66's & '73's and, I bet, about a lot of other things, too!

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

 

 

El Gato Gordo, is this the ammo you were talking about http://ammodirect.com/default.aspx?tabid=44&id=290 ?

 

The site doesn't mention the OAL but they look like what you suggested.

 

Thanks

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Almost certainly a factory error in not filing enough of a bevel on the top-back of the loading mortise.

 

See this link, it shows great pictures:

 

Uberti '73 (and '66 ) loading Mortise Bevel Problem

 

Fixed about 6 rifles so far for this problem. Cockeyed round on the carrier is NOT caused by too short a round. What too-short ammo causes is a straight, nicely aligned round on the carrier, and part of the NEXT round also sticking out of the magazine into the carrier. In that case, as the carrier rises, the round in the magazine is sticking so far back that the bevel on the front of the carrier cannot push the round back into the magazine, so that there is only one round trying to get up the shaft with the carrier. If you look closely down into the carrier as you work the lever you can clearly see the difference between the two problems!

 

Good luck, GJ

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