1902 SAA, 41 colt

[Bones Z]

A friend of mine just pulled a first gen SAA out of his safe. has about 5-10% finish left, minor surface rust and external pitting, good bore. Has a broken half cock notch, the end play is a bit excessive, and lockup is a bit loose.

 

Questions:

Is it worth fixing:

Who would you recommend?

Were the 41s common?

 

 

And the big question:

 

Would you shoot it or "collect" it?

[Goody, SASS #26190]

The 41 was rather common, enough so that there is no premium on them. If it were mine I would shoot it. However, 41 Colt ammo is not real plentiful, nor cheap when you find it. But since you say the end play is excessive, why not have a smith fit a 38-40 cylinder to the gun? They shared the same bore size, .401, if I am not mistaken.

[Big Jake1001]

A Colt in 5-10% is still worth more than most new clones are. .401 bore is the same as a .38-40 WCF. Have a gunsmith fit

a cylinder with a chance the bolt will lock it up. If not, get a new bolt installed with the cyl. The removable bushing should come with the cylinder and take care of the end play. Then go and shoot it. Colt barrels still had the Black Powder thin lands and wide grooves until 1904 even though they were rated for smokeless in 1900. Make sure the cylinder is 1900 or newer for safety. Have fun.

 

Big Jake 1001

[Bones Z]

Thanks Gents,

 

Any recommendations on a smith?

[Silver Jack Hammer, SASS #56398]

Check to see if it is a black powder frame. Is the base pin held in place by a screw or cross pin? I believe serial number 192,000 is the beginning of the smokeless guns but I'll have to check the records. Consider re-calibrating it to a .38 Special, .44 Special, or .45 Long Colt if it is a smokeless gun. Decide if you want to have it re-finished at the Colt's factory, Turnbull, or Eddie Janis' Peacemaker Specialists. Or you could have a local gunsmith finish it in all blue. You might want to have the new barrel and cylinder aged to match the frame. Another option is to just sell it and buy a new gun to shoot. The .41's were noted for poor accuracy, mostly due to the cylinder throats bored sometimes straight through. Slug the bore with a pure lead ball and then slug the cylinders. Some of those old .41's had cylinder throats tighter than the bore. You could have the cylinders bored out but you are dealing with the .41 cartridge which heal crimped outside lubed like a .22 long rifle cartidge of today. Have some fun with this and take your time. Please post the serial number range of your gun.

[Neches 50502]

Bones a loose 1902 1st generation in 41LC isnt worth a ton of money as some may think. I dont suggest changing the barrel and cylinder to another caliber as previously suggest especially 38 special you will drop the value of the gun dramaitcly!!!! If the bore is good as Goody stated the 41LC and the 38/40 are the same barrel!! So you can aquire a first gen cylinder in 38/40 and shoot away. The 41LC is very hard to load and is a heeled bullet and the bullets are a bit high. I helped a pard find a 38/40 cylinder earlier this year for the same reason of having a 41LC stamped SAA. If the gun was made in 1902 it is safe for smokeless. There a number of guys out there that can work on this Colt for you from rebuildind the half cock notch to replacing any internal parts and retiming the gun. If you wanted to turn this gun into a shooter I would not sink much money in it because it will take you some good money to get in back in service possibly from the way you describe this Colt. For example just to replace and retime the bolt if needed will range from 100 to 150 for part and labor depending on who you use. Also the cylinder with the gun could be worked over and converted to 38/40 as well instead of aquiring another cylinder.

As for gunsmiths Tom Sargis is a good source for the work with descent prices for his services. His web site is www.bozemantrailarms.com

[Big Jake1001]

His header says it's a 1902 Colt. It's a smokeless gun with a cross pin latch. Serial range should be 220,xxx and up.

A cyl change is all that's needed instead of barrel change. Read the post again, it's his friends gun, not his.

 

A gunsmith here in So.Cal that could do the work is Ken Baumgariner, alias Doc Gun in Azusa Ca. Ph. 1-626-969-7565

He can fix the half cock on the hammer, and fit a cyl. Tell him Big Jake sent ya.There's also Cowboy and Indian Store, Santa Ana Ca.

They are in the Cowboy Chronicle. Jim Bowie, Gunsmith.

 

Big Jake

[Silver Jack Hammer, SASS #56398]

As I read the entire threat I do not see the originator referring to the gun as a 1902 nor possessing a cross pin cylinder bolt latch nor any serial number range.

 

Colt proof marked their guns as safe for smokeless around 1900, around serial number 192,000, a year later the factory proof mark "VP" was introduced on the left side of the trigger guard.

 

As for the value of the gun, gunsamerica.com has two such listing currently in .41 circa 1900, both asking around $3,000. The finish is gone on these guns too.

 

The .41 Colt barrels ran .406 to .410 as per Dave Scovill's book Loading the Peacemaker Colt's Model P.

 

The bore diameter of the .38-40 is .401".

 

I would strongly advise the bore be slugged and any new cylinder be mic'd before purchasing and installing.

 

The .38-40 case has a very thin neck wall prone to crumpling. Straight walled cases are heartier for reloading and there is no need to deal with the lube. That's why so many people re-calibrated these guns to .38, 44 and .45. That and the .41 cylinders were bored straight through at .413".

 

I have changed the caliber of a few Colt SAA's and been very pleased with the results. Slug and mic the components before jumping into the cost of fitting a new cylinder.

[Neches 50502]

Silver Jack the title to the thread says 1902 SAA take a look see. By the way I would never ever every pay $3000 for a 1st in the condition he has drescribe above every!!!!

[Neches 50502]

Here is another link I came up with talking of the 41 LC to 38/40 swap.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/i...hp/t-35508.html

 

Also here is a copy and paste from anohter sight talking on this subject.

>.38-40 OVERSIZE BORES: A common problem in this caliber for some reason. You don't see it as much with the .44-40 caliber because original groove diameters for that one were .427" and modern dies can use .431" bullets. Some bores for .38-40 were made oversize, such as in Colt revolvers which used the same barrels for .38-40 and .41LC . You can have a barrel with good rifling, but the bullets keyhole in the target. I once had such an 1889 Marlin that miked .413"! (supposed to be .400"). However, if you're lucky the chamber will also be oversize ( as with my 1873 Winchester) and you can use .41 cal bullets. If not, try resizing them to groove dia, in my case .407".

Anneal and taper expand the neck of the case to start a .41 SWC or resize fired .38-40 cases in .44-40 die and expand. Run cartridge up into the .38-40 bullet seating die and push bullet down to the cannelure. The crimper does this, not the plug. Now size the neck with a 10mm or .40S&W size die, which essentially forms a "heel" type bullet. You can also reload other outside lube cartridges using LEE "factory crimp" dies, but not in this case. I've tried .41LC bullets(.386"/.406") without success.

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

deleted

[Big Jake1001]

I give up. Ya can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make 'em drink.

He doesn't OWN the gun.

 

Silver Jack Hammer, don't read the thread, read the title or header; 1902 SAA, .41 Colt. Questions answered.

 

Colt didn't put a VP which was in a triangle on the trigger guard until 1904.

 

Big Jake 1001.

[Red Hooker]

The 41 was rather common, enough so that there is no premium on them. If it were mine I would shoot it. However, 41 Colt ammo is not real plentiful, nor cheap when you find it. But since you say the end play is excessive, why not have a smith fit a 38-40 cylinder to the gun? They shared the same bore size, .401, if I am not mistaken.

Later .41s, post-1895 or so, had the .401-.403" bore.

Earlier .41s had .406-.408" barrels (nominally- mine is .413"!). That was the size of the old outside-lubed bullets they used- same diameter as the case, with a heel at the base which fit into the case, like .22LR.

Later bullets were actually .386"-ish to fit inside the case like modern ammo, and had a hollow base like the old Civil War Minie' bullet to expand up and engage the rifling.

The .401" barrels were apparently a compromise size to accommodate old stocks of .406" ammo, and yet be small enough to grab the newer hollow-base ammo. Probably also, being the same size already in stock for .38/40, it reduced tooling costs-one less size to keep on hand.

[C B B, SASS #59205]

A friend of mine just pulled a first gen SAA out of his safe. has about 5-10% finish left, minor surface rust and external pitting, good bore. Has a broken half cock notch, the end play is a bit excessive, and lockup is a bit loose.

 

Questions:

Is it worth fixing:

Who would you recommend?

Were the 41s common?

 

 

And the big question:

 

Would you shoot it or "collect" it?

I'd go for collect it --or trade it to a collector!

I am somewhat of a collector--who likes to shoot the old guns that are safe, but this sounds like a real project (spelled $$$)to shoot--much of which may degrade the collector value! --so many of the old guns have rough barrels and even if safe to shoot, take a lot of work to clean!

(I already told you how I know that!)This will take some skill to fix, not to mention the difficulty finding a 38-40 cyl (last I looked Sportmans Warehouse did not have those parts on the shelf!)--might sell on the wire (I've bought collectors on the Wire, so know it can happen) and go buy a Uberti or ? that can be shot--even at SASS matches!

BB

[Texas Jim Henry, SASS #20616]

Any recommendations on a smith?

 

Howdy, Bones -

 

I'd contact Alan Harton (Single Action Service) in Houston, TX. His number is (713) 772-8314. Whether you just want to make the gun safe and serviceable, or a complete restoration, Alan can do the job and do it very well.

 

Regards, TJH

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Twas me I'd have the end play corrected and the hammer notch repaired. Then I'd get on the list with Starline to make another run of 41 Brass. I'm thinking you aren't gonna make this a main match gun so a couple hundred, if that many, cases should suffice. You should be able to scrounge up enough, albeit pricey, to get going.

 

Next, get you the Rapine hollow base grease groove mold and cast your bullets near pure lead. It oughta do fine with that combo and BP or a sub.

 

Common or not, a fine old honest Colt deserves to stay that way. Just my nickels worth.

 

Or.....you could probably trade it toward a couple of 3rd gen Colts in whatever caliber suits your fancy. Might not get there with it as is but you could come close to even with the right buyer.

[Bones Z]

Thanks Gents, I appreciate the input. Have already sent this thread to my neighbor. He is looking to get this SAA up and running. Thanks again for the info.

[Oklahoma Dee]

Texas Jim Henry is right! If you want it correctly, contact Alan Harton.

[TXRanger]

Howdy, Bones -

 

I'd contact Alan Harton (Single Action Service) in Houston, TX. His number is (713) 772-8314. Whether you just want to make the gun safe and serviceable, or a complete restoration, Alan can do the job and do it very well.

 

Regards, TJH

 

 

Re. Alan Harton - http://pistolsmith.com/pistolsmiths/21569-...lan-harton.html

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

A transverse cylinder latch is not necessarily indicative of a gun that is OK for Smokeless Powder. That style latch was first introduced in 1892, and phased in as a standard production feature sometime in 1896. However Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless Powder until 1900. So some guns with transverse cylinder latches were made before they were safe for Smokeless. The VP in a triangle was first introduced the next year, in 1901. This is all according to Kuhnhausen. Here is what the VP proofmark looks like:

 

Proofmark

 

However, any gun made after 1900 will be safe for Smokeless loads, and it is pretty easy to figure out when it was made by looking up the SN.

 

41 Colt was a pretty common caliber, however it causes some problems today. Originally it was loaded with a heeled bullet. This meant special crimping equipment would be needed. Later, it was loaded with a conventional bullet, however the bullet was undersized for the bore. So a special hollow based bullet was used so that the base would open up and grip the rifling like a Minié ball. But these bullets are not real common and could be a problem to find.

 

The cylinder play can be fixed by making a new cylinder bushing or placing shims in the cylinder behind the bushing, however this often means the barrel/cylinder gap will be excessive. The only way to correct excessive barrel/cylinder gap is to thread the barrel some more and turn it in another revolution, than trim the excess off. That can run into some serious money.

 

Given the condition of the gun and the caliber, personally, I would not mess with it myself. There are still lots of old Colts out there that might not be such a project.

[Red Hooker]

Howdy

 

A transverse cylinder latch is not necessarily indicative of a gun that is OK for Smokeless Powder. That style latch was first introduced in 1892, and phased in as a standard production feature sometime in 1896. .........

DJ

You're a fairly knowledgeable sort'a fella, maybe you can answer a quetion I have re: the transverse latch. I know the Lightning/Thunderer models had it since their introduction in 1877. Why wasn't it introduced on the SAA at that time? 'Cause the "black powder" base pin screw was what the Army accepted and they wouldn't have it otherwise?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Sorry

 

I know next to nothing about the early DA Colts. Can't help with your question.