Need some advice on a rifle

[Dwight Davis Starr]

I am interested in shooting with guns that are accurate for the period, and already have the pistols figured out, but now I am looking for long guns that would work for the time period I am looking to re-create for myself; 1865-1875.

I am unsure of the styles of rifle to choose from due to my "Hollywood Education" on the period, so I am only aware of the common 1860 Henry, 1866 Carbine and 1873 Winchester, so other options would be really useful.

Also, what would be a good option for a side by side? I don't care if it is .20 or .12 gauge, just want it to look right.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Howdy Dwight, and welcome to the fun. You're off to a good start with your rifle choices. To stay more "period" I'd suggest going with the Henry or the '66. Those brass frames are pretty spiffy.

If you're not overly concerned about stage times, the Spencer carbine would look really cool but that seven shot magazine might slow you down a bit.

 

For a shotgun, any 12 gauge with exposed hammers would work for your time period.

Self-cocking hammerless shotguns didn't come along until 1883 with the LeFever, designed and patented by Daniel LeFever of New York.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

The period you like is best represented by the Plainsman category - my favorite side match. I use two 1858 Remington revolvers, a mule-eared shotgun (12 guage) and a H&R Handi Rifle. The Handi Rifle isn't suitable for a main match (far too slow) so I use a more modern repeating rifle in main matches. Sometimes I haul out a baby rolling block rifle I have (chambered in .357) and shoot it in a main match. I finish dead last but have a heap of fun.

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Another possibility would be the Spencer rifle, but from a competitive standpoint, it is slow as it requires you to cock the hammer manually after working the lever (but it's way cool, IMHO).

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The most prevalent in the immediate post war years were the Henry and the Spencer. The spencer has one large drawback to or game, only 7 rounds in the magazine. Real large style points but Poo Poo for stage times. A better choice would be the Henry. My suggestion for ease of cleaning and consistent running would be in 44-40 as the .45 Colt chambering is a real nuisance for blow back. While you can lessen the blow back, you can't really eliminate it.

Unless you reload for shotgun, a 20 gage will beat you to death. By the end of a match you'l want to use it for a tent peg. Best bet and the best value for dollar for a hammer double is the TTN/Cimarron hammer double 12 gage. A 12 gage with Winchester "Featherlights" will have less recoil than any factory 20 gage. The guns are nice and heavy (you only have to hold them up for a couple of seconds) and are quite useable right out of the box.

Next best rifle choice would be an 1866. Again, I'd recommend 44-40 for the same reasons as above. Once you get the hang of it, 44-40 ain't hard to reload.

 

We don't have the option of "Period Correct" cartridges in any out of the box rifle. I personally don't have much time for "Period Correctness" butI do like to have fun with stuff that looks "right." You could go with two handguns chambered in .44 Special and an 1866 chambered the same and shoot .44 Russian cartridges. The 1866 will require a new after-market carrier to do this.

 

Regardless, this is really fun game!!!

 

Coffinmaker

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

My gun sets are divided by time periods with the Henry Rifle (44-40) being used with cap and ball pistols while I like to use my '66 Yeller Boy (44spec) with my conversion revolvers. The same CC Special 12ga hammer gun is used when I shoot these two sets and none of these guns have ever seen smokeless powder. Just looking right also includes large clouds of smoke when the triggers are pulled. I have '73 rifles and pistols plus a pair of Uberti Schofields for playing later period cowboys but I have not been satisfied yet with any hammerless dbl, '87 or '97 shotgun I own and this is even after gunsmithing.... Fun is where you find it.

[Smithy]

Dwight it is good to hear of your plans. Not too many folk stick to Period Corectness as you plan to do. It's encouraging to hear about and I would love to hear what you finally decide upon. Smithy.

[Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151]

One other option for rifle not yet mentioned, and is period correct also. Find you a 1860 Henry Transition rifle. They're really way kewl, have a loading gate, and have a forearm (adjustable) so you don't have to do the Henry Shuffle with your hand. Big on "Style Points" too. I don't remember who's building now, but you can sometimes find them on AA or GB. I love my '66, wouldn't shoot anything else. IMHO

 

Capt Hill

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The Henry Transitional is from Taylors. I don't know if they still stock them or not. I personally have 4 Henrys and two are transitional, one of which I built. I can't recommend the wood fore end from Taylors. It just slides around. With the Transitional, you don't have to do the "hop" anyway.

 

With a "standard" Henry, I do recommend a spacer on top of the cartridge stack. It prevents an accidental magazine discharge and leaves you enough room in front of the frame to grip the barrel and again, not do the "hop."

 

Henrys are WAY cool!!

 

Coffinmaker

[Salt Flat Swindler]

I actually went with this sort of mindset when I put together my blackpowder set of guns. I opted for 1851 Navys, a 1866 Carbine, and the closest shotgun I could find was a Husqavarna Underlever in 12ga. I also have a 1862 Pocket Police and an 1860 Army that get thrown in for variety.

 

The Husqavarna is actually a 20B that was made in 1950 but the underlever design dates back to 1877. That said, its a painfully slow shotgun and I wouldn't recommend it. A TTN would be a better choice but I don't like the short barrels or the weight of the gun.

 

I really wanted a Henry or a Spencer when I started shopping for the rifle. The Spencer would be really cool with great style points but it is glacially slow to shoot. The new ones are only chambered in 56-50 which is not a cheap round to buy, shoot, or reload. They used to make ones in 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt but you might have to hunt for those for awhile. Some of the calibers had ejection problems but I can't recall which ones.

 

The Henry would be a great choice and the transitional Henry with the flat loading gate would be even better. If you get the full size rifle it is heavy and reloading a Henry on the clock might be a bit of a challenge. I settled on the 1866 in the end because it dated from the time period I wanted, it was easier to reload on the clock, and it was the first Winchester design available in the saddle ring carbine configuration and I really wanted that. The carbine has dismal sights however so you may want to look at a short rifle instead.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

If you want "Big Time Style Points", find and shoot an Evans lever Rifle or Carbine.

 

I shot a Cowtown match last Month with a Cowboy from Pennsylvania that was shooting an Evans Rifle with BP loads. He was shooting Cartridges in his open tops in the Frontier Cartridge class.

 

This Rifle will hold 26 Evans longs or 32 Evans shorts in the butt stock.

 

A very interesting piece indeed.

[Dwight Davis Starr]

WOW, thank you all! Here are some things that I have decided upon, by reading the forum and talking to folks;

I plan to use .38/.357 in my pistols, so the C&Bs will be .36s to accommodate conversion later on.

When looking for a shotgun, exposed hammers and double triggers are a must!

Lever action rifles that shoot pistol cartridges almost universally have loading issues, so listen to people that have them and use them!

 

I am going to look at that '66 a little harder, and have been looking at the Henry Big Bore, but have been told they have more "personality issues" then National Geographic, so which brand of replica would be the best choice on a '66?

I have worked on my own guns for years, even did some tuning when we did gunfight re-enactments in Kansas (back in the mod-90s), which were almost all C&B '58s, so I think I will be sticking with the '60 Army in .36 as a start. I plan to make a short pistol out of one, probably cut the barrel and re-crown it to 2" or 3" and make a "Shop Keeper" out of it. What brand of birds head grip would be compatible with those?

When I get ready to set up with normal cartridge revolvers, I will be using getting a 3.5" Lightning as a secondary and I haven't decided on a primary. I am very comfortable working on the SAA, so if it is a decent Colt clone, I don't care what brand.

I have already picked up some Heritage Rough Riders to practice with, and am using a Ithaca Model 49 that I am working on for my Uncle as a lever gun until I can afford a Henry .22, so I am steadily working on getting things rolling.

I will be reloading my own ammo, including shot shells, and plan to use Triple 7 for my substitute, so if anyone has recommended loadings, I am all ears as well.

I would LOVE to own a Spencer, so I will make that a long term plan for finding one in the right chambering.

The Handy Rifle idea intrigues me, how do you make that work? I have shot some of those old New England and H&R shotguns for a long time, so the idea of using one for competitive shooting appeals to me a lot, since they are cost effective and readily available (not to mention easy to work on and re-chamber).

Again, thank you all for your input, please elaborate for me a little on some of those ideas with the '66 and which mule eared shotguns to use.

Much appreciated all!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Lever action rifles that shoot pistol cartridges almost universally have loading issues, so listen to people that have them and use them!

 

Howdy

 

I dunno where you heard that, but it is a lot of hooey. Perhaps what you heard is that lever action rifles originally designed to shoot rifle cartridges, like the Winchester Model 1894, which was designed to shoot the 30-30 cartridge, can have problems when they are adapted to shoot pistol length cartridges. The '94s that have been chambered for 45 Colt often have problems because the action was designed to work with a much longer cartridge. But lever action rifles originally designed to shoot pistol length cartridges usually work just fine. Sometimes the Winchester Model 1892 has a little bit of trouble when it is run too fast, but all of the others, the Henry, the Winchester 1866, 1873, and the Marlin 1894 all run pistol length cartridges just fine.

 

If you are interested in a '66, they are all made in Italy by Uberti. They are imported by different outfits like Cimarron and Taylors, but they are all made by Uberti and they are all the same.

 

If you are thinking of starting this sport with C&B revolvers, I recommend against it. Rather than typing in my reasons, I will refer you to a thread on another board where I state my case. You have to scroll down towards the bottom to see what I have to say. If you are already experienced loading and shooting C&B revolvers that is one thing, but if they are new to you, a CAS match is not the place to get familiar with them.

 

Thread

 

If you do decide to go with C&B and want to eventually convert to cartridges, be sure to buy revolvers with steel frames. Revolvers with brass frames do not work out well with conversion cylinders.

 

The Henry Big Boy is not a replica of anything that ever existed in the Old West. Enough said about that. The 1860 Henry as produced by Uberti is a very different rifle.

 

so I think I will be sticking with the '60 Army in .36 as a start.

 

Not sure what you mean by this. If you are talking about the Colt 1860 Army, they were a 44 caliber revolver. The 1851 Navies were 36 Caliber. Also, there are some complications converting 36 cal C&B revolvers to cartridges. Most 36 cal C&B revolvers have bores too large for modern 38 cal ammunition. You either have to use hollow based bullets, so the skirt of the bullet will expand to fit the rifling, or you have to have the barrel sleeved to bring the bore down to modern 38 size (.357). However, with a 44 cal C&B you can shoot them with a conversion cylinder in 45 Colt with no problem, the bore will be the correct size for a modern 45 cal bullet. I can explain that at greater length if you are interested.

 

Main Match rifles must be either lever action or slide action. The Handi-Rifle is a single shot and is not legal to use as a Main Match rifle.

 

One other point. Several pards have mentioned the Henry Transition Models with a side loading gate. Historically these were very rare, only a very few were ever produced as prototypes while Winchester was working out the kinks of the new King's patent loading gate. They were never offered for sale to the general public.

 

I shoot a Henry most of the time in CAS. Be advised, there are some safety issues involved with shooting a Henry. You must never allow the magazine follower to slip from your grasp and you must never drop cartridges straight down the magazine vertically. Doing either of these things can result in a chain reaction of cartridges firing in the magazine. I do use a spacer stick in my Henry so I can avoid having to do the Henry Hop. The Henry is a heavy rifle. This is because the barrel and magazine are milled from one solid bar of steel. My 24" Henry weighs a full pound more than my 24" '73. And it weighs way more than my little '92 carbine.

 

Hope all of this is of some help.

[Dwight Davis Starr]

Thank you, that is a lot of knowledge! I am pretty used to them, or was when I was shooting them every week, so I think I will give the C&Bs a try, if they don't work out, I can always use them for goofing around and buy some Peacemakers.

The pistol cartridge thing is based on my experience with my own 94 Winchester in .44 Mag, but trying to fire .44 Spcl out of it, some discussions I have read on here and the advice from friend and former co-worker, who shot CAS back in Yakima (goes by Oatmeal, used to work at Shooter's Supply, last worked at Hammer's in Union Gap). This may be due to the difference in cartridge length between the magnum and special rounds, but since I am looking for a rifle in .357 and plan to shoot .38s out of it, it is a concern of mine. My 94 Trapper basically failed to feed properly nearly every round, which was a serious downer for my first shoot with the group in Yakima, because of using the lower powered specials. Can I replace the follower with something that will help relieve this problem, or will I need to look at the action to solve it? I am hesitant to do modifications to the rifle, especially since it is a temporary until I get a period correct one, especially since it will be a loaner from my father for now. If .30-30 loaded in BP or substitute is allowed, I have the one made in 1908 that I am working on for my father that he would let me use, but I honestly had not looked it up yet to find out.

Thank you, it is always a pleasure to learn something from the experiences of those who have gone and done it before me! Wish more people were as friendly as this forum, but I think that goes with the territory of what this forum is about and the values it represents.

The look I am going for can best be summed up with simply looking at Sam Elliot from the Shadow Riders or any of the main characters in the Sacketts. A mix of civilian attire and Confederate Cavalry uniform, with appropriate leather and accessories. I am thinking a good old cross draw flap holster for the main, then a strong side Slim Jim for the secondary pistol. I plan on doing a couple of side matches (if and when they are available) for pocket pistol and long distance, so eventually looking to pick up a Remington Rolling Block in .45-70 and picked up an original break top H&R pistol in .38 Colt that I will be reloading for. I know the H&R isn't correct for the period, but that is more for the availability at the moment (and the memories of shooting with my Dad). I plan to build myself a Pepper Box for more authentic pocket pistol shooting eventually.

I have seriously thought about getting a Spiller and Burr for my main to start with, and may get one even if I don't use it just because I really like the looks of them, but don't really know much about them, so any opinions/information on them I could use?

I can swear I saw a .36 cal 1860 Army on Dixie Gun Works, but maybe I got that confused, wouldn't be the first time.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

As I said earlier, the Winchester '94 action can be particularly troublesome with pistol length rounds. It is because the action was designed for the longer 30-30 round. It was a compromise to attempt to chamber it for pistol length cartridges. Yes, shooting 44 Specials probably made it worse. ALL rifles are designed to feed cartridges of a certain length. Some are more tolerant of length variation than others. It is not like a revolver, where you stuff the rounds manually into the chambers. The rifle mechanism has to be able to feed the rounds through the mechanism, and there are limitations as to length. As far as the '94 is concerned, you will occasionally run across a shooter who likes them, but they do tend to be troublesome. If it wuz me, I would not bother with it and would go with something else. Just about all the models I mentioned, Henry, '66, '73, '92, and Marlin '94 will perform better with less jams than a '94.

 

Sorry, no you cannot use the 30-30 as a main match rifle. You must use a lever or slide action rifle that chambers a 'pistol' cartridge. 30-30 is considered a rifle cartridge. This may sound confusing as some cartridges like 44-40 and 38-40 were originally designed for rifles, but the idea is these cartridges are short enough to fit into a revolver cylinder, so in CAS we call them pistol cartridges. Most of the repeating rifles of the cowboy era chambered short cartridges like these, and many could be fired from revolvers as well as rifles. The 30-30 is clearly a rifle cartridge, it will not fit in any revolver cylinder. You can use a 30-30 for long range side matches, but not as a Main Match rifle.

 

You can try to load the 30-30 with Black Powder or a substitute if you want, but most shooters who try find that the cartridge does not perform well with Black Powder. It may be surprising, but the 30-30 has always been a Smokeless powder cartridge, one of the first. The narrow bore tends to foul out badly when shot with Black Powder.

 

The revolver you saw at Dixie may have been a 1861 Navy. It looked just like the 1860 Army except for a shorter grip frame. Like the 1851 Navy, the 1861 Navy was chambered in 36 cal.

 

If you want to go with the Spiller and Burr, remember what I said about brass frames and conversion cylinders. Most Spiller and Burr replicas that I have seen have brass frames. You mentioned eventually converting to cartridges. The two manufacturers of conversion cylinders specifically say not to use their cylinders with brass frames. Stick to steel. I dunno if there is a conversion cylinder made for Spiller and Burr anyway.

 

If you really like the Spiller and Burr, you might consider the 1858 Remington. They look quite similar. I have two Remmies with conversion cylinders and I shoot them with 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.

[Dusty Morningwood]

I have a pair of .44 Open Tops, an 1866 rifle and a 1860 Henry rifle. All are set up to shoot .44 Russian. So the 66 and Henry are your best rifle choices. The 73 fall into your time frame, too. As for revolvers? Anything from Colt Navies and Remington 58s to Model 1873 SAA.

[Christopher Carson]

The pistol cartridge thing is based on my experience with my own 94 Winchester in .44 Mag, but trying to fire .44 Spcl out of it, some discussions I have read on here and the advice from friend and former co-worker, who shot CAS back in Yakima (goes by Oatmeal, used to work at Shooter's Supply, last worked at Hammer's in Union Gap). This may be due to the difference in cartridge length between the magnum and special rounds, but since I am looking for a rifle in .357 and plan to shoot .38s out of it, it is a concern of mine. My 94 Trapper basically failed to feed properly nearly every round, which was a serious downer for my first shoot with the group in Yakima, because of using the lower powered specials. Can I replace the follower with something that will help relieve this problem, or will I need to look at the action to solve it? I am hesitant to do modifications to the rifle, especially since it is a temporary until I get a period correct one, especially since it will be a loaner from my father for now. If .30-30 loaded in BP or substitute is allowed, I have the one made in 1908 that I am working on for my father that he would let me use, but I honestly had not looked it up yet to find out.

 

Driftwood covers this one well. I started this game with a '94 Trapper that I bought sometime in the mid-'80s (I think) to use as a "truck gun" (it works OK for that), so I'll add that you will indeed likely get better feeding results in CAS by using .44 Mag cases -- downloaded to .44 WCF/.44 Special velocities, of course. Since the mag tube will only hold 9 Mag-length cartridges, that will in turn force you to add one round on the clock... but the carbine should feed much better for you. Another hint is to work the action firmly -- don't baby it -- and as smoothly as possible. That might tide you over 'til you can get whatever you decide on.

 

FWIW, the .45 Schofield cartridge is an available center-fire cartridge that dimensionally comes close to the .44 Henry Flat rimfire.

 

Some emphasis on Driftwood's one-liner: The "Henry" rifle as made by Uberti is a replica of the original historic Civil War-era Henry Rifle that descended from the Volcanic repeater (under guidance from B. Tyler Henry), and that Oliver Winchester evolved into the Model 1866 and eventually the 1873 and (sorta) 1876 models. The "Henry Big Bore" is completely different, a "modern" rifle, with the only similarities to the historic rifle (that I know of) being a brass colored receiver, octagon barrel, and front-loading magazine tube.

 

Good luck! -Chris

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

You've gotten some good advice. I had very good luck with a '94 Trapper in .45 Colt when I first started the game -- but it seems like I'm the only one. I still have the rifle, but it is slow compared to lever actions designed to use shorter cartridges like the Henry, 1866, 1873 and 1892.

[hannie]

I was going add Colt open tops. They were around a long time from what I read.

Just for fun though I don't think legal would be a revolving rifle (M1855 Colt) or revolving carbine (Remington) or even a LeMatt carbine (Pietta showed one at the European show).

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Get "Open-Tops" in 38 special/ .38 Colt and put the money saved over doing conversions toward ammo,to really learn to handle them ...

If there is a finer pointing gun than the Open-top/ 1851 type guns it ain't been found yet, these guns steady up and just seem to naturaly hang pointed at the target !!!!

Then get a 1866 "Short Rifle" made by Uberti not one made by Chipera May be Spelled Wrong,,,,,,,( spelled Cheaper but Junk)....

Open-Tops in .44 Special with a 66 in the same and a Hammered "Stevens" 235 in 16 0r 12 would be wonderful choices for this era ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[C. Erroll Madre]

Dwight,

 

One thing in one of your posts caught my eye - "I am thinking a good old cross draw flap holster for the main". Think that one through before going full tilt there. I too went for the post Civil War/Indian Wars period. I shoot a pair of Schofields, and since I have a Cavalry uniform, I went for the cav holsters. They are a bit of a pain in the "Southbound end of a Northbound Mule". Those holsters were never designed for quick draw. They sit up high on the hip, which means you'll have you arm higher up in the air, especially if you have the longer barreled pistols (mine are the 7" cav models). At least that's my problem (plus, I'm short). And there's the whole flap issue. I have to tuck my flaps behind the belt to get a clear draw. Not a complete handicap, but it does slow me down a bit.

 

Not trying to criticize, just thought I'd toss in my 2 cents.

[Dwight Davis Starr]

C.Erroll Madre, thanks! I figure at this point in the game, I am learning what works and what don't, so the more $.02 worth I get, the better off I am. I will probably still by a flap holster, mainly because I really like the looks of them and can use it while hiking or backpacking, as the majority of my guns and gear have to serve a dual purpose.

Speaking of dual purpose, I have been doing some more reading, spurred by many of the comments in this thread, and am now looking at .45 Long Colt for my pistols and rifles. From what I have read, it is easier to convert to .45 with the C&P '51 and '58 revolvers, and nearly every company makes a rifle in .45LC, so that would simplify reloading and broaden my choices a bit, not to mention it would be a more useful cartridge for wild life encounters.

Any recommendations for this combination? I am looking into those Remington '58s; not as "sexy" as the '51 or '60, but there is something more to this then just how appealing they are to my eye.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

First off, be sure you really want to shoot 45 Colt.

 

If you see yourself as being a competitor, you will probably want to shoot pistols with as little recoil as possible. I wish I had a nickel for every beginner who wants to shoot 45s, only to find out that they recoil more than he counted on. Then it is typical for the new shooter to try loading 45 Colt way down so that it recoils like a lightly loaded 38 Special. The problem is, the 45 Colt cartridge does not do well being loaded way down in power. Many shooters load it down with some success, but many eventually trade their 45s in for 38s. Be sure to shoot some 45s to get a feeling for their power.

 

My Main Match pistols are usually Colts, but I also have a pair of Remington 1858 New Model Armies with R&D conversion cylinders chambered for 45 Colt. I am one of the crazy few who does not load the 45 Colt cartridge down, I stuff it full of as much Black Powder as it will hold and top it off with a 250 grain bullet. I will never, ever be able to compete with the really fast shooters, but to me it is much more fun blasting away with a full powered 45. But it ain't for everyone.

 

You are a little bit mistaken about the 1851 Colt Navy. They were chambered for a 36 caliber ball, not 44.

 

The Remington 44 is the easiest C&B to convert to cartridges because it is the easiest to load. With a Remington and a R&D cylinder you put the hammer on half cock, drop the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, and remove the cylinder. Then you pop the cap off the cylinder, knock out the empties, replace them with live cartridges and pop the cap back on the cylinder. Then you put the cylinder back in the gun. With most of the Colt type C&B guns you have to remove the barrel before you can pull the cylinder to reload it. Removing the barrel requires knocking out the barrel wedge. It is much easier to just pop the cylinder out of a Remmie.

 

There are also methods for cutting a loading gate into the frame so that cylinders do not need removing to reload, but that involves altering the frame of the firearm. Once you have altered the frame of a C&B to enable it to shoot cartridges, you have converted the gun to a cartridge firearm according to federal law. You can then never sell it, you have to keep it forever. If you go the R&D route, you can pop the C&B cylinder back into the gun any time you want and it is legally a C&B gun again.

 

The only downfall of the 1858 Remington is the cylinder tends to bind up very quickly when shot with Black Powder. It is a shortcoming of the original design. There is no raised bushing on the front of the cylinder to defect fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin, so the cylinder tends to bind up quickly with fouling. This is not a problem if the gun is shot with a conversion cylinder and Smokeless powder.

 

As far as flap holsters are concerned, I would forget that. I don't know anybody who uses flap holsters, including guys who shoot nothing but C&B. The flap is always in the way. If you study photos of the Old West, you will find pictures of cowboys still using C&B revolvers long after cartridge cylinders became popular. They seldom carry them in flap holsters, usually slim jims or some other common holster of the time.

[Dwight Davis Starr]

Driftwood, thank you again! I am actually looking at the logistics and firearms choices as a part and parcel kind of thing; mainly to make things less expensive to start and still have options on the models to choose from in chosen chambering. Sounds like I should just plan on loading 2 different cartridges from the beginning, and pick the rifle I am most comfortable with but still stick with the original .38 idea. I am 6'1" and 280lbs, been shooting .44 Magnums since I was a kid and the .45 ACP is my preferred defensive round, so I am no stranger to recoil, but the difference in grip I think is going to make a big distinction for me, so I am taking your advice to heart and looking at .38Spl with earnest. My first C&B pistols were both 1851 or 1858 Colts (bought at Cabella's in the early 90s), both in .44 but with a .454 bore, so I was basing my thinking on those. I admittedly need to do a bit more studying before I can be sure of model numbers, so maybe you can tell me what I had? Links to the products would be;

.44 Navy Sheriff's Model

.44 Navy Civilian

I take it these are probably the right frame, but not the original chambering? I am trying to learn what to look out for to keep my kit as accurate as possible, so what would you recommend a former Confederate Cavalry NCO would have carried as a sidearm? I don't mind the use of Brass, and know not to use conversion cylinders in them (they sure shine up pretty!), but would like to try and keep things looking as right as I can to start.

Thank you in advance, I am learning a lot from talking to you all, most appreciated!

 

BTW, the Confederate idea is more due to the fact that their uniforms were a little loose in regulation due to available supplies, so I can take liberties with it within reason, AND the fact that I have a habit of performing in the OPFOR role for a lot of the trainings I have helped with, so thought it would be fun to continue the tradition into SASS/CAS.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

The ship that didn't sail, kinda the story on my 44-40 Henry. It had been in my plans, a few years back, to have Hap rechamber my Henry to 44spec and then install the short carrier to make it suitable for the Russian cartridge. Alas, I procrastinated to long and Hap couldnt wait on me. I did purchase one of the short carriers from Henry and am going to have it installed in my 44spec '66. I suspect a whole lot of black powder shooters would have considered the rechambering to be a bad idea anyway as 44-40 is one of the two or three best cartridge designs for black powder in a rifle. I will not argue that but remember, the .44 Russian and the Cowboy 45 Spec are about the closest center fire cartridges around to simulate the old 44Henry for playing Civil War era cowboy. I think of the Henry as being one of the most attractive rifles going, based on its long slender profile and after thought forearms would probably destroy the look and push forward the clock on suitable time periods of its use.

 

Dwight, In the last six months I have purchased the set of 44 Navies you have linked to and also a pair of the Pietta versions of the short barl 1862 revolvers in 36. In addition I have a pair of the 44 Pietta '58 Remingtons with short barls. Though I have not fired them yet, I hope all shoot as well as they look and feel, it looks as if you and I are heading down a similar path. Perhaps one day I can get a short barl .45 caliber Henry and put in the short carrier so that the rifle will match up to my new short barl cap and ball pistols. About as close to gamey as one can get and still be using CW era firearms for Frontiersman.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Dwight

 

The pistols you have referenced are replicas of pistols that never existed. Don't get upset, I have one too.

 

The 1851 Navy Colt had a straight sided cylinder, chambered for 36 caliber.

 

The 1860 Army Colt had a rebated cylinder, and a notched frame to accept the cylinder. You can compare the two here:

 

Colt 1851 Navy

 

Colt 1860 Army

 

When the 1860 Army was designed, Colt took the same basic frame as the Navy. But the front portion of the cylinder was made a larger diameter to accept six 44 cal chambers. That is what is meant by a rebated cylinder. The rear is the same diameter as the Navy cylinder, but the front is wider. The frame had a notch in it to relieve it to fit the larger diameter of the front of the cylinder. The 1860 had a totally redesigned barrel assembly. It was more streamlined and the bullet ram assembly was of a rack and pinion design, rather than the hinged affair on the Navy. Lastly, the grip on the 1860 Army was about 1/4" longer than the Navy grip.

 

The pistols you refer to were dreamed up by the Italian manufacturers of C&B pistols. By cutting a notch in the frame and fitting a rebated cylinder, it was possible to have a 'Navy' pistol chambered for 44 cal balls. But they never existed in real life.

 

Don't be upset, I have one too. I bought it back in 1968 before I knew anything about C&B pistols. I just thought 44 cal would be more fun, probably lots of other shooters did too, so that's probably why they were made.

 

Now, just to confuse things further, here is a photo of a 1851 Colt Navy and a 1861 Colt Navy. The 1861 is on top, the 1851 is on the bottom. Notice the 1861 has the same streamlined style barrel assembly as the 1860 Army. But it has the straight sided 36 caliber cylinder and shorter grip style of the 1851 Navy.

 

1861 and 1851

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

you have got a lot of info to digest here but here is my 2 cents!

go with 58 remies and conversions cylinders when you can-keep

the percussion cylinders for black powder shooting and the coverts

for smokeless -i have 2 and they are very accurate guns.

get a 66 in 45 colt also so you only need to have one caliber

then a good hammered sxs-if you decide to go 38s git open tops

and a 66 in 38sp -still only need to load one caliber and you can

still go fast with that set up -low recoil -and all-Happy shooting-Diablo

P.S forgit the flap holsters-go with slim jims

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

My reference to recoil was not so much what kind of recoil you can tolerate, it is more what kind of recoil you want to put up with in CAS. More recoil in a pistol equals slower times on the line. My pistols recoil a whole lot, but I don't really care about my time. You might want to give some thought to how competitive you plan to be.

 

As far as historical accuracy is concerned, that can be taken a little bit farther than is really necessary. Case in point, modern made Henry rifles are only chambered for 45 Colt or 44-40. They are not chambered for the original 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge that historical Henry rifles were chambered for. Pretty much because the ammo is not made anymore. If you compare a modern made Henry to a real one, the section of the frame where the cartridge carrier resides is slightly longer than in the originals. This is because the carrier has to be longer to accommodate the longer modern rounds. The 44 rimfire round was considerably shorter, and less powerful because it held less gunpowder than the 45 Colt or the 44-40. So modern Henry rifles have their frame stretched a little bit longer than the originals. But some shooters want to shoot a round more like the original 44 rimfire round, so they have their Henry rechambered for 44 Special, or 44 Russian or maybe a couple of other cartridges. Then they are shooting a shorter less powerful round than their rifles were originally chambered for. They can also get more rounds in the magazine, much like the originals. Personally, I never felt the need to go that far with historical accuracy and am perfectly happy shooting 44-40 ammo out of my Henry, even though the round is more powerful than the originals.

 

Another point to ponder. If you want historical accuracy, no 19th Century rifle was ever chambered for the 45 Colt round. That is a completely modern development. 19th Century lever rifles that fired 'pistol length' ammo were pretty much limited to 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.

 

Most folks will tell you to keep your rifles and pistols chambered for the same round. This certainly makes some sense, to have a common round, but I have been shooting 44-40 in all my rifles and 45 Colt in all my pistols in CAS since day one. I just don't want a rifle chambered for 45 Colt. I do have to pay a little bit of extra attention at the loading table so I don't try to stuff a 45 into a 44-40 rifle. It will jam the whole thing up. I must confess that last week I finally did make a mistake and stuffed five 45 Colts into my '92 Carbine before I discovered my error. Took me a few minutes to get them out without jamming the gun.

[Dwight Davis Starr]

A lot to digest is right, WOW! OK, definitely getting the info I am needing, and much appreciated!

Driftwood, don't worry about hurting my feelings, it would take a lot to get me upset and I really hope you didn't get the impression that I was. The reason I ask questions is to learn, you take the knowledge as it comes and try to fit it in to fill the gaps to make sense of things, which is the reason I was asking about my old Navys, and thank you for pointing out that they are not actually replicas in the pure sense, it really helped me understand what was going on!

I think I will look at the Remmies, they are a nice looking pistol, but I need to hold one first to really decide; I have fired the Navys I used to have considerably, so I know that I can shoot them fairly quickly and very accurately, not sure if there is that much of a balance difference with the Remmies or not. I had decided against the .44-40 due to the cost of rounds in my area, which started at $58 a box! I actually just sold a Model P in .44-40 because of this fact, since it will take me a few months to get set up for reloading. The .45LC and .38SPC are so much more reasonable in price and availability around here that it made more sense to me to get something more economical to start with. I think the '66 is going to be the rifle I choose, I will just have to learn to single load quicker for any strings that have higher round counts. I am also looking to do the long distance shooting as well, and planning to use the H&R Buffalo Classic to get started in that, then save up and buy a Remington Rolling Block if I choose to stick with it.

I am needing to get moving on the pistols soon, so I can get the leathers and associated gear sorted before spring, the rifle and shotgun I will be borrowing from my father until I can get my own, which is why I am getting a feel for what models to go with; trial and error can get expensive.

Thank you again, to everyone, the information is much appreciated and most valuable!

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

For a rifle the '66 and the Henry will be hard to beat, both have small character safety/operation issues that you need to familiarize yourself with but to some extent this applies to most of the old gun models. Caliber, tapered cases offer a lot with reduced cleaning effort and I think they feed just slightly better due to funneling?? My favorite is the 44-40 and one of its downsides is far more power than necessary for our sport BUT the modern invention of something called grits can go a long ways towards fixing this (grits do bring their on downside also).

 

For those who tend to be less observant at the loading table (and reloading table) the 45 Colt/ 44-40 combo can be more than a minor bother but I personally fixed that when AJ came out with the Cowboy 45 Special brass. http://www.cowboy45special.com/ This offers several advantages for me, now I have a round that allows me to replace the visual confusion between the 45colt and the 44-40, it allows me to use far less of the expensive bp subs without needing fillers and it clears from under the star slightly easier in my Schofields than does the 45colt brass. When used with the new light weight and ultra light weight bullets, the Cowboy 45 Special is right on par with most 38 loads for the big bore competitor and finally, I think it is more suited for the big bore cap and ball conversions.

 

Conversion pistols are going to be somewhat more personal in choice but I will give my preferences and reasons. I do not like the idea of converting Colt style pistols at all, it is cheaper to buy factory made conversions due to the high cost of the conversion kits. Due to the problems of removing the barl it almost demands that the recoil shield be cut and a gate be installed which then makes it look cheesy to replace the c&b cylinder and it is said the gun can never be sold or given away afterwards?? The Colt 36s bring even more bad baggage to the table, not actually 357 bores, so I just say no to home made Colt conversions, with one possible exception. If a person wants a large caliber conversion with the great SAA size grips, the cheapest way would be a Pietta .44 '51 Navy converted to 45 Colt with a Kirst Converter kit and accompanying recoil shield cuts. I have not compared the cents but this might be slightly cheaper than replacing grips and frames on the ready made .44 conversions???

 

Remingtons are a horse of a different color. The .44 cal '58s do make the option of changing out conversion cylinders practical for reloads without a port. Find an old style conversion ring, without the gate, and one can practically convert back and forth between Frontiersman and the Frontier Cartridge cats with no gun alterations. The caliber will actually be .45 which invites the Cowboy special ammo from above. All pluses BUT the one down side for me is that the Remington grip is not near as good for me as is the Colt Navy grip, while others may prefer it.