What If?

[Madd Mike #8595]

What if, i were to punch you right in the nose. I'm not saying i would mind ya, but what if???

 

first off

we wood have to me in the

same place

at the

same time

 

are U callin me out

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Who would be hurt more with a 10 second penalty?

 

Generally, it would hurt the top shooters less than others.

 

Below are two charts from two different shoots (Both were great) that show the distribution of total misses versus the overall match placement. The charts also include trend lines.

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/GF_Misses.jpg

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Comin_AtCha_Misses.jpg

 

For example at Givhans Ferry the top shooters were generally averaging less than 2 misses, with many shooting clean. The mid range shooters were averaging about 4 misses - about twice as much. As you move further in the standings, the average goes towards 6 or three times as much.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Appently, you did not read my entire post. Let me expand.

 

Shooting accurately is not difficult. It can be learned very easily. Sight alignment, trigger pull, grip, it is dead easy. I have taught a young man who never touched a gun how to shoot accurately in a single session. He was bright and listened with his head. He was a friend of my son.

 

What is much more difficult is to learn to shoot fast. It requires something I have not found in myself. I have watched my son do it. It has to do with the willingness to fail, among many other things. You have to exceed your abilities till your abilities match your speed and then you have to be able to challenge those abilitites again and again.

 

The logical end of the expansion of a larger miss penalty is to allow a win only for a clean match. The fastest would still win but there would be a severe impediment to newbies or even average learning what they need to be fast.

 

More than a decade in the game and several decades of shooting have taught me that hitting the target is child's play. Doing it fast, under pressure, damn, that is tough.

 

I wish more people got that it.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

BJT,

 

I've been thinking about your post for a while now. It seems we will never agree what comes easier. It is the chicken and the egg.

 

You say target acquisition and accuracy is child's play and comes easy, while I say that speed comes easier than target acquisition and accuracy.

 

In my life, I've seen some very fast shooters who were very quick but who missed reasonable targets more than hit their targets. And I'm not only talking about Cowboy Action Shooting, but tactical shooting in general.

 

I've seen the whole spray and pray philosophy first hand. To me, it was always harder to get a fast shooter to learn accuracy than it was to get an accurate shooter to pick up some speed in his delivery.

 

I doubt you will agree with me, but I'm going to leave it at that.

 

Respectfully

 

PC

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Who would be hurt more with a 10 second penalty?

 

Generally, it would hurt the top shooters less than others.

 

Below are two charts from two different shoots (Both were great) that show the distribution of total misses versus the overall match placement. The charts also include trend lines.

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/GF_Misses.jpg

 

http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Comin_AtCha_Misses.jpg

 

For example at Givhans Ferry the top shooters were generally averaging less than 2 misses, with many shooting clean. The mid range shooters were averaging about 4 misses - about twice as much. As you move further in the standings, the average goes towards 6 or three times as much.

 

You could be right, but we'll never know.

 

Semper Fi!

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

During a debate like anything else, when you are attacked it's human nature to strike back when you get hit.

 

Some folks on here have gotten real personal with their attacks on me. Yet the only thing I did was ask a small fairly insignificant question that I really thought would be a good topic for a discussion.

 

In some cases it has made me say to heck with being a nice guy and attack in kind. In others cases I've just let it go.

 

But in either case, the topic and the fun of the discussion is lost.

 

The SASS Moderators can close this down whenever they want to.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

BJT,

 

I've been thinking about your post for a while now. It seems we will never agree what comes easier. It is the chicken and the egg.

 

You say target acquisition and accuracy is child's play and comes easy, while I say that speed comes easier than target acquisition and accuracy.

 

In my life, I've seen some very fast shooters who were very quick but who missed reasonable targets more than hit their targets. And I'm not only talking about Cowboy Action Shooting, but tactical shooting in general.

 

I've seen the whole spray and pray philosophy first hand. To me, it was always harder to get a fast shooter to learn accuracy than it was to get an accurate shooter to pick up some speed in his delivery.

 

I doubt you will agree with me, but I'm going to leave it at that.

 

Respectfully

 

PC

 

It takes me very little time to teach someone to hit a relatively small target at a decent distance when there is no time element...accuracy is easy!

 

Now learning to run a fast stage is much more difficult. Learning to pull trigger and GO is tough...the list goes on.

 

It has been proven in this game...whether you want to beleive it or not...that speed first, accuracy second ends up being the most successful method. Proof is there...you've just gotta let go of your biases.

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Paniolo,

 

As a slow shooter, I totally disagree. Once I got my shaking under control, I've cleaned many matches. I just can't seem to gain any speed. Speed takes focus, logistics, agility, and practice. Hitting the targets just takes pulling the trigger when your sights are on the target, which is only the focus part.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Marauder SASS #13056]

As someone who has voluntarily taught folks to shoot for about 25 years, I find that most folks can be reasonably accurate in one short session - especially if they have never shot before.

At one indoor range I often helped couples shoot pistols. I would ask if they had ever shot before and normally the guy would say yes, normally a rifle. Most of the ladies had shot little or none. After a few months of doing this, I would warn the man that it was very likely that the lady would out shoot him by the time we were done - normally in 15 minutes or less. For a new shooter, I always taught first how to hit, then quickly switched to gaining speed.

 

Since I got into cowboy shooting, many very good shooters and instructors have said that they can quickly teach you to shoot accurately - especially at the distances we shoot. Several of my friends and I have worked with newer shooters and shooters that want to improve. I don't recall any that had significant problems hitting targets. Of course, shooting a clay target at 25 yards takes a little more time and effort.

But when they try to speed up, there is the rub. Shooting fast and accurately is much more difficult.

 

And starting with various folks, I've also found that it is easier to help a fast shooter gain accuracy than it is to teach an accurate shooter to gain speed. Once you start focusing on shooting exactly in the center, AND be sure you have hit it, it can be hard to break that habit.

 

Lastly, with any learning process, you can generally work on only one thing at a time. So if you want to shoot fast and accurate, you will have to work on accuracy for a bit, then switch to working on speed. After you get your speed increased, then you can begin to improve your accuracy again.

 

The top shooters and teachers (in several shooting sports) I've talked to and read have all supported the idea that you must work on speed and then work on accuracy. It is normally a multi-step process. So if you are seeing some folks shooting fast and missing, they may be working on the speed issue. In most cases, those folks will be really improved in just a few months.

 

I know because many are now out shooting me regularly!!! :wacko:

 

For some good information, read Doc Shapiro's free book. He worked with top shooters around the nation for quite a while picking their brains and learning to be a very good shooter. Then he shared what he learned. What he is saying is learned from many of the very best shooters in Cowboy and other shooting sports.

http://www.jspublications.net/

[Madd Mike #8595]

BJT,

 

 

I've seen the whole spray and pray philosophy first hand. To me, it was always harder to get a fast shooter to learn accuracy than it was to get an accurate shooter to pick up some speed in his delivery.

 

 

PC

 

the view from my wagon seat is

 

teaching speed is much more difficult

than

teaching proper (shooting / hitting) targets

 

speed requires letting loose (in some cases) or not even using proper shooting techniques, and every thing that BJT said

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hey!

 

I forgot to tell ya what hubby, Jess Brown, said to a youngster many years ago when he was told by some to slow down and hit the targets.

 

"Shoot fast, your eyes will eventually catch up."

 

That youngster is two-time world champion, Badlands Bud.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[The Dakota Clay]

Personally, I think that the 10sec miss penalty, just like shrinking the targets or moving the targets further away, will simply extend the spread between the top shooters and the bottom end guys.

 

Our game is undeniably about speed and accuracy TOGETHER. The guys that are capable of quickly shooting accurately will always be on top, while the guys that struggle with accuracy will always be on bottom.

 

Any changes to the rules or targets that will slow down the top shooters will also slow down the slower shooters, but to a proportionately higher degree.

 

Consider this scenario, if the 5 top shooters on any given stage shoot cleanly with blistering speed, and the 6th place guy posted the fastest stage time, but was rushing and missed one target, he still is NEAR the top because of his speed, but gets knocked out of the top spot because he was sloppy on one target. Adding 10seconds might rank him in the midst of a category of shooters WAY below his skill level.

 

In any society, SASS NOT excluded, where there are lords there must also be serfs. Without dark there couldn't be light, without a last place finisher, there could not be a first place finisher. Shooters need to be accepting of their position. If they want to improve their rankings, they need to improve THEMSELVES, not molest the rule book to suit their own petty desires.

[Shooting Bull]

I'm going to go so far as to say you'd have the exact opposite affect of the one you're looking for. As it stands right now, the top shooters in our sport can make up a miss or five with pure speed. That's what makes them the top shooters. On the other side of that coin you have the slower shooters who CAN'T make up a miss. (Because they're slow. ) So, taking that into consideration, who are you really slowing down? You're going to have the top shooters going even faster to make up for their misses and the slower shooters slowing down even more to avoid the misses.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

You could be right, but we'll never know.

 

Semper Fi!

 

 

Oh, but we already know. The charts indicate the number of misses. The data is already available. The top shooters do not want any misses if possible as that miss penalty can hurt their standings a lot.

 

Plus as others have already stated, the 10 second miss penalty was tried off and on for many years. They know the results.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Those charts show exactly what my instincts predicted - that the slower shooters would be separated even further from the top with an increased time penalty. What if the penalty were reduced to, say 2 seconds? I think the slower shooters would find themselves closer to the top finishers in TT, but still down on the list by about the same number of shooters. A couple of weeks ago I watched a very fast shooter on a stage that required only 8 hits with 10 rounds in thye pistols. He purposely put the last 2 in the dirt, but it took longer to do that then run his normal fast & accurate paradigm! Point? The good shooters are going to hit the targets because it's easier than missing. Practice is the only way to improve, I don't think greater penalties are the answer.

 

CR

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Oh, but we already know. The charts indicate the number of misses. The data is already available. The top shooters do not want any misses if possible as that miss penalty can hurt their standings a lot.

 

Plus as others have already stated, the 10 second miss penalty was tried off and on for many years. They know the results.

 

You're right, when I posted the reply I had forgot that that was already tried and didn't work out.

 

My mistake.

[Lethal Larry, SASS #58429]

So that I didn't Hijack a thread, I'm curious about a What If sort of question.

 

After reading this post from BJT:

 

 

 

My first thought was that everyone who I've ever talked with all agree that this game is strictly about speed.

 

So are is BJT saying that if SASS increases the miss penalty to say 10 seconds per miss that that would slow the game down??

 

Why if "the game is speed and accuracy"? And if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now?

 

Let's not go crazy here thinking that its actually happening, this is only a what if question I had to something that BJT said on another thread.

 

What do you think?

 

That is exactly what NCOWS is....10 seconds for each miss. It will make a difference. Our club shoots BOTH SASS and NCOWS and some folks who are faster than me and I never beat in SASS I will sometimes beat in NCOWS due to the penalty for misses. Those who are fast AND accurate will still rule the roost.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Maybe its the people I usually shoot with, but I don't see many misses at all. Most shooters seem to realize that they can't shoot faster than clean and find the speed range that allows them to hit the most. Most matches around here are won by clean shooters given the level of competition. I don't think my times would change much at all if the misses were ten seconds, I'm already trying to hit everything.

[Wild Shot #51]

For many years my wife and I scored 4 to 5 matches a month, and after reviewing literally hundreds of match results, I can tell you exactly what a 10 second miss penalty does. It increases the gap between the top shooters and the middle of the pack shooters. It also increases the gap between the middle of the pack and the bottom quarter. It doesn't significantly change the overall placement of the shooters one bit. Two similar matches with the same shooters will result in almost identical placement. Just separated by larger time margins.

 

Once upon a time, in Elsinore, California, China Camp and I were shooting on the same posse. This match had a 10 second penalty for misses. Another very good shooter (who is with us no longer) complained to us at length about the 10 second penalty. I suggested humorously, "As long as you don't miss, the penalty is irrelevant."

 

China Camp and I agreed, "It doesn't matter. Just tell me what the rules are, and I'll shoot accordingly." Dennis said, "If it's a 10 second penalty match I'll just slow down to my 10 second speed and still win." Which he did. But I'll be darned if it looked to me like he shot any slower!

 

Wild Shot

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Lethal Larry,

 

You said, "That is exactly what NCOWS is....10 seconds for each miss. It will make a difference. Our club shoots BOTH SASS and NCOWS and some folks who are faster than me and I never beat in SASS I will sometimes beat in NCOWS due to the penalty for misses. Those who are fast AND accurate will still rule the roost."

 

What you experienced is what I thought might happen more than not. But from what Wild Shot, Marauder, Allie Mo, and many others have witnessed .... it's just the opposite.

 

I just want folks to know that I was not asking or advocating for a change in the miss penalty. I was simply asking "what did folks think would happen if it was increased to 10 seconds?" And honestly, I asked this really not knowing that SASS had tried actually tried a 10 second miss penalty once upon a time in the pass. As far as NCOWS having it that way, I also did not know that that is the way NCOWS does it because I really don't know anything about NCOWS other than what I've heard on this Wire.

 

This topic was the result of me remembering what a few people had talked once while standing around the range. And after I read what BJT had to say, I thought I would ask about it.

 

In no way was this an attempt to change anything about the way we play the game now.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Lethal Larry,

 

You said, "That is exactly what NCOWS is....10 seconds for each miss. It will make a difference. Our club shoots BOTH SASS and NCOWS and some folks who are faster than me and I never beat in SASS I will sometimes beat in NCOWS due to the penalty for misses. Those who are fast AND accurate will still rule the roost."

 

What you experienced is what I thought might happen more than not. But from what Wild Shot, Marauder, Allie Mo, and many others have witnessed .... it's just the opposite.

 

I just want folks to know that I was not asking or advocating for a change in the miss penalty. I was simply asking "what did folks think would happen if it was increased to 10 seconds?" And honestly, I asked this really not knowing that SASS had tried actually tried a 10 second miss penalty once upon a time in the pass. As far as NCOWS having it that way, I also did not know that that is the way NCOWS does it because I really don't know anything about NCOWS other than what I've heard on this Wire.

 

This topic was the result of me remembering what a few people had talked once while standing around the range. And after I read what BJT had to say, I thought I would ask about it.

 

In no way was this an attempt to change anything about the way we play the game now.

 

No - you also added the thought of making folks better (more accurate) shooters.

 

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

No - you also added the thought of making folks better (more accurate) shooters.

 

 

Not trying to Lawyer up here, but what I initially asked was what "if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game?"

 

Refer to my OP Post#1

 

"if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now? Let's not go crazy here thinking that its actually happening, this is only a what if question I had to something that BJT said on another thread. What do you think?"

 

As you can see by my initial question, no where is there any reference to my wanting to make folks better more accurate shooters.

 

The question was "if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game?" And clearly the answer is that it would not improve our game. In fact after reading what you, and Griff, and Wild Shot, and all of the others have to say, and especially since it was tried before, a 10 second penalty would not be good for any of us.

 

The answer is that it would not improve our game at all. In fact, I've learned from you and others that it would probably have the opposite effect.

 

Respectfully

PC

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Hi Paniolo,

 

As a slow shooter, I totally disagree. Once I got my shaking under control, I've cleaned many matches. I just can't seem to gain any speed. Speed takes focus, logistics, agility, and practice. Hitting the targets just takes pulling the trigger when your sights are on the target, which is only the focus part.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Hello Miss Allie Mo darlin'

 

As a slow shooter, once I got pass trying to Blow and Go attitude and instead really decided to settle down is when I started having more fun in Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

When I first started, I fell into the trap that says if you're not going your fastest than you're not playing the game correctly. I don't believe that that's true. I don't believe that having fun in SASS is only dependant on how fast you shoot.

 

When I first joined SASS, peer presure and the Time had me all screwed up. I shot the worse of my entire life and it was just not fun at all. After the first few months of showing up to shoot fast and walk away discouraged in my performance, I really wanted to quit.

 

I really believed at the time that SASS was only for younger more competitive types who didn't have arthritis in their hands instead of someone who just wants to have fun shooting.

 

The "P's" and the misses were very discouraging and not very much fun. Like I said it was not fun to walk away from a stage knowing that you tried to match the thumb dextarity and robotics of others and couldn't do it. What was worse for me was thinking that I had lost my ability to shoot well in the sense of hitting what you're shooting at.

 

That was when I made a concsious decission to go back to what I knew that worked. Once I stopped worrying about how fast the others were shooting, or even the timer, I again started hitting what I was shooting at and was able to concentrate better on the stage scenarios and sweep patterns.

 

Instead of my just worrying about going faster and faster to try to beat a clock and keep up with people who had been at this for many years before me, I started focusing more on my accuracy and the stage senarios and not getting procedurals. It became fun to walk away from a stage feeling a sense of accomplishment.

 

I decided that if I were going to "enjoy" myself and I needed to remove the timer from the game ... for me.

 

The result is that I was less discouraged with myself being in SASS because I became happier with my performance. Nowadays my shooting has improved, and my speed is steadily getting better.

 

To downplay it, I guess I can say that it just shows that what works for one person is not what works for everyone.

 

Hugs,

 

PC

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Not trying to Lawyer up here, but what I initially asked was what "if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game?"

 

Refer to my OP Post#1

 

"if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game? What would be the effect of increasing a Miss to a 10 seconds penalty instead of the 5 seconds it is now? Let's not go crazy here thinking that its actually happening, this is only a what if question I had to something that BJT said on another thread. What do you think?"

 

As you can see by my initial question, no where is there any reference to my wanting to make folks better more accurate shooters.

 

The question was "if shooters had to be more accurate would that improve our game?" And clearly the answer is that it would not improve our game. In fact after reading what you, and Griff, and Wild Shot, and all of the others have to say, and especially since it was tried before, a 10 second penalty would not be good for any of us.

 

The answer is that it would not improve our game at all. In fact, I've learned from you and others that it would probably have the opposite effect.

 

Respectfully

PC

 

Everything in context - you show your intent with further statements: With all due respect pard, who wins is not what I'm looking for. Of course the fastest good shooters are going to top the list, but that's a small percentage of an entire club. I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Everything in context - you show your intent with further statements: With all due respect pard, who wins is not what I'm looking for. Of course the fastest good shooters are going to top the list, but that's a small percentage of an entire club. I'm curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club but making people better shooters.

 

 

You're right!

 

I was curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club somehow. Either by making people better shooters or by whatever outcome. Would it improve a match somehow by having some sort of positive effect on the shooters?

 

I asked if it would improve something somehow because I didn't think it would have a negative impact on shooters. I have since learned that I was wrong, although I still don't think that it would KILL SASS.

 

I guess I could have made my statement in the negative by saying, "I'm curious if a 10 second miss would detract from the entire club by making people worse shooters.

 

Which fits the way you'd like to read it?

 

It was meant to be a general statement in the positive.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

You're right!

 

I was curious if a 10 second miss would benefit the entire club somehow. Either by making people better shooters or by whatever outcome. Would it improve a match somehow by having some sort of positive effect on the shooters?

 

I asked if it would improve something somehow because I didn't think it would have a negative impact on shooters. I have since learned that I was wrong, although I still don't think that it would KILL SASS.

 

I guess I could have made my statement in the negative by saying, "I'm curious if a 10 second miss would detract from the entire club by making people worse shooters.

 

Which fits the way you'd like to read it?

 

It was meant to be a general statement in the positive. Yea...right

 

Do you also like to debate what the meaning of "Is" is?

 

Benefiting "CLUBS" should be restricted to the WHOLE. You're philosophy is centered around individuals...which are CLUB MEMEBERS.

 

Issues that would benefit "CLUBS" are issues that would increase memebership, allow more $$$$ to come into the club that would allow the club to invest in the betterment of the CLUB so that MEMBERS would have a more joyous shooting experience...that type of thing.

 

Then you have folks that believe that one of the duties of a CLUB is to make their shooters "BETTER". I avoid clubs like these...they usually suck! They have no understanding of primary directive of SASS CLUBS...which is to focus on making sure folks have a great time...all while being safe.

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

During a debate like anything else, when you are attacked it's human nature to strike back when you get hit.

 

Some folks on here have gotten real personal with their attacks on me. Yet the only thing I did was ask a small fairly insignificant question that I really thought would be a good topic for a discussion.

 

In some cases it has made me say to heck with being a nice guy and attack in kind. In others cases I've just let it go.

 

But in either case, the topic and the fun of the discussion is lost.

 

The SASS Moderators can close this down whenever they want to.

 

Geeze you throw a stick of dynamite in the fire and folks yell and scream at you and you get upset? Next time keep the dynamite in your saddle bag. Then you say it wasn't real dynamite it was just for fun. Folks are still upset. There should be a lesson learned here by you. It wouldn't be so bad but you have a reputation of doing such deeds.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

I am going to chime in here, and God help me, I am then turning off this computer and leaving for Thanksgiving (Happy Thanksgiving to all my Cowboy friends, BTW):

 

Rank Point vs. Total Time: 5 Second Miss vs. 10 Second Miss: Bigger Targets, smaller targets, accuracy, speed (lions, tigers and bears -Oh My!) All this time and we still argue about this stuff WHEN THE ANSWER WAS GIVEN TO US SEVERAL YEARS AGO AND WE, AS A SHOOTING GROUP IGNORED IT!!!

 

W3G uses a knock down center that rewards accuracy but has a big enough surface to satisfy those who want to run and gun and hear a bullet hit the target. It also mandates that you use ammo heavy/fast enough to actually knock it down. Anyone who has shot this sport knows that it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD. A slower more accurate shooter can keep up with a Phantom, or Bud. Those that cannot move like a twenty year old still have a fighting chance.

 

I am not, REPEAT, NOT saying we should turn into 3WG. I am not saying we should run or move with guns.

 

I am saying that adopting a target system like that would move us to the next level and END some of this debate. I for one like what we have, but I get tired of all the back and forth on this stuff.

 

Anyway that's just my idea.

 

Dang It Dan

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I am going to chime in here, and God help me, I am then turning off this computer and leaving for Thanksgiving (Happy Thanksgiving to all my Cowboy friends, BTW):

 

Rank Point vs. Total Time: 5 Second Miss vs. 10 Second Miss: Bigger Targets, smaller targets, accuracy, speed (lions, tigers and bears -Oh My!) All this time and we still argue about this stuff WHEN THE ANSWER WAS GIVEN TO US SEVERAL YEARS AGO AND WE, AS A SHOOTING GROUP IGNORED IT!!!

 

W3G uses a knock down center that rewards accuracy but has a big enough surface to satisfy those who want to run and gun and hear a bullet hit the target. It also mandates that you use ammo heavy/fast enough to actually knock it down. Anyone who has shot this sport knows that it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD. A slower more accurate shooter can keep up with a Phantom, or Bud. Those that cannot move like a twenty year old still have a fighting chance.

 

I am not, REPEAT, NOT saying we should turn into 3WG. I am not saying we should run or move with guns.

 

I am saying that adopting a target system like that would move us to the next level and END some of this debate. I for one like what we have, but I get tired of all the back and forth on this stuff.

 

Anyway that's just my idea.

 

Dang It Dan

 

I love the W3G format...as you probably know. The ONLY downside is that there are many ranges that don't have berms.

 

Bummer...

 

[Shooting Bull]

W3G uses a knock down center that rewards accuracy but has a big enough surface to satisfy those who want to run and gun and hear a bullet hit the target. It also mandates that you use ammo heavy/fast enough to actually knock it down. Anyone who has shot this sport knows that it LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD. A slower more accurate shooter can keep up with a Phantom, or Bud. Those that cannot move like a twenty year old still have a fighting chance.

 

I am not, REPEAT, NOT saying we should turn into 3WG. I am not saying we should run or move with guns.

 

I am saying that adopting a target system like that would move us to the next level and END some of this debate. I for one like what we have, but I get tired of all the back and forth on this stuff.

 

 

TRUTH IN ADVERTISING: I've never shot Western 3 Gun, only seen it on t.v.

 

Does it TRUELY level the playing field? One of the Shooting USA episodes that covered W3G showed Bud shoot a stage and end up with a NEGATIVE time. He scored more bouns time than it took him to shoot the stage in the first place. From what I understand he does this quite regularly. What otherwise average shooter can keep up with that?

 

Also; bonuses? ON THE CLOCK? I thought folks who suggested stuff like that around here got strung up by the neck until dead.

 

My bottom line is that the best shooters will always be the best because they put in the time and effort to get that way. No matter what scenarios you throw at them, it ain't gonna change. That same logic applies to the middle of the pack shooters and the slowest shooters on the planet. They're gonna place where they always place, regardless of the stages, penalties and/or bonuses. So why bother changing what ain't broken in the first place? Chage for improvement is great. Change just for the sake of change is a waste of time, effort and possibly money.

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Geeze you throw a stick of dynamite in the fire and folks yell and scream at you and you get upset? Next time keep the dynamite in your saddle bag. Then you say it wasn't real dynamite it was just for fun. Folks are still upset. There should be a lesson learned here by you. It wouldn't be so bad but you have a reputation of doing such deeds.

 

I really truly did not realize that this one one of those subjects that I try staying away from.

 

First off, I've been on here a while now and I don't remember anyone ever talking about this. I've never heard of the suggestion being made before.

 

Second, I wasn't saying to make a change. I never said let's change what's already in effect. All I asked was what if this was that way? What would it do? How would affect the play? Would it improve anything?

 

And as far as having "a reputation of doing such deeds"? Well that's news to me. But if you are referring to the whole close verses far verses big verses small target topics? I HATE the fact that everytime I say that one of the clubs I go to changes their targets to both big and small and far and close, then there are those folks who for some reason ASSUME that that I am advocating small/far targets when I'm not and never have.

 

All I've ever said was that I do like variety and that it don't matter to me one way or the other because I will shoot at whatever the clubs give me to shoot at. What is so wrong with saying that I am easy to please when it comes to trying to get along with folks?

 

As for this subject of penalty points, I shoot at the bottom of the list. I shoot for fun to have fun. As far as an issue being dynamite? Please post something somewhere on the subjects that we should not talk about on here and I will try to abide by your rules in the future.

 

Honestly I think this is all just a bunch of &*%$#@ Bullshit!

 

If a simple question can have the effect of, as you said, "Folks are still upset." Then please tell me how else I can apologize to folks for bringing up the subject in a way that they will accept.

 

How else can I say I am sorry for bring this up?

 

Heck I've even asked the Moderators to close this down so that I stop offending you and Phantom and others who feel personally attacked by this topic. Please tell me what else can I do?

 

There are a few things that I really don't like doing, and begging forgiveness is one of them.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Heck I've even asked the Moderators to close this down so that I stop offending you and Phantom and others who feel personally attacked by this topic. Please tell me what else can I do?

 

Stop posting on a thread you want closed. There are several people here on the Wire who seem to feel that they MUST get in the last word on a topic. Just let it go. Who really cares who gets in the last word? Does it change your opinion? Probably not. Will that other person's opinion change? Probably not.

 

SD

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Do you also like to debate what the meaning of "Is" is?

 

Benefiting "CLUBS" should be restricted to the WHOLE. You're philosophy is centered around individuals...which are CLUB MEMEBERS.

 

Issues that would benefit "CLUBS" are issues that would increase memebership, allow more $$$$ to come into the club that would allow the club to invest in the betterment of the CLUB so that MEMBERS would have a more joyous shooting experience...that type of thing.

 

Then you have folks that believe that one of the duties of a CLUB is to make their shooters "BETTER". I avoid clubs like these...they usually suck! They have no understanding of primary directive of SASS CLUBS...which is to focus on making sure folks have a great time...all while being safe.

 

 

You know what, your " Yea...right" comment makes me think that you won't take anything I say as being honest anyways.

 

Your attitude sucks pond water Champ! And guess what, I'm tired of apologizing to you and everyone else!

 

If you don't like me on a personal level, no problem! If you have a problem with me asking a question or starting a topic that offends you then take me to the SASS Moderators and complain to them.

 

It's real obvious that you like putting words in other people's mouths. I never said shit about a club's "duty" is to do what you are saying. That's in your mind. I asked if something would have a benefit on a club, if it would improve something, that's it ... no more no less.

 

I can't help if you have a problem with me to the point that you take everything I write and misconstrue it for something it's not. But you know what, I've apologized until the cows come home and that ain't enough to please you.

 

So like I said, guess what? I'm tired of apologizing to you and everyone else!

 

[Shooting Bull]

Last word

[Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875]

Heck I've even asked the Moderators to close this down so that I stop offending you and Phantom and others who feel personally attacked by this topic. Please tell me what else can I do?

 

Stop posting on a thread you want closed. There are several people here on the Wire who seem to feel that they MUST get in the last word on a topic. Just let it go. Who really cares who gets in the last word? Does it change your opinion? Probably not. Will that other person's opinion change? Probably not.

 

SD

 

You're right Dan.

 

For some reason, I've been feeling like I've had to defend myself against this Bullshit.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I still ya Paniolo!

 

Maybe that will be the last word.